Language |
|
|
|
....the problem is that...
|
130. |
07 Jan 2013 Mon 10:39 pm |
my artificial definition is may be different than most people.
if one person or a group of experts got together and produce a word, i call this artificial. it doesnt mean always bad, it is sometimes good if based on certain valid rules. and someof this artificial words become natural if accepted by most of the public.
if artificial words produced for already known and widespread old words, i ask, wait a minute, what are you trying to do. if good artificial words produced for new words, new invented things mostly technological, new foreign words; no problem, go on working, it is good.
TDK (Turkish Language Association) did not accepted the harm they caused, did not give up the controversial language purification process even if they stopped now temporarily. If one day, TDK officials say that we did such and such things, they were wrong, sorry about that, we will no longer continue to this elimination process, instead of this we will work on projects good for turkish; at that day they will deserve my respect otherwise i will continue trying to reduce their harm!
Edited (1/7/2013) by ikicihan
Edited (1/7/2013) by ikicihan
[mistyped words corrected]
|
|
131. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 01:21 am |
Some authors who support puricification invent new Turkish words and uses them instead of using a common Arabic word and vice versa. One of them is Tahsin Yücel. He is an author, linguist and translator. I read some of his translations and I really had difficulties with understanding them. Some Turkish words he used was so foreign for me. If he had used the common Arabic ones, his translations would be more understandable. You can say then don´t read his translations. But sometimes I can´t find any other translations of foreign books he translated. I remember I had big difficulties when trying to understand his translation of Camus´s The Myth of Sisyphus. I was really frustrated. After a while I saw an article of Ece temelkuran about this book and she was saying that she didn´t understand his Turkish. And I was happy that she tought the same thing with me. She also criticises the translators who uses Arabic words instead of common Turkish words. We don´t understand the translations of some important books because of translators´ ideologies and this really makes me angry. I am sick of their stupid ideologies, I just want to understand what I read..
Article:
http://www.ecetemelkuran.com/kategori/blog/28247/sisifos-ve-bir-kisim-turkceciler...
Edited (1/8/2013) by gokuyum
Edited (1/8/2013) by gokuyum
Edited (1/8/2013) by gokuyum
Edited (1/8/2013) by gokuyum
|
|
132. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:23 am |
Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë, published on 16 October 1847.
second page, second paragraph as an example
"A breakfast-room adjoined the drawing-room, I slipped in there. It contained a bookcase: I soon possessed myself of a volume, taking care that it should be one stored with pictures. I mounted into the window-seat: gathering up my feet, I sat cross-legged, like a Turk; and, having drawn the red moreen curtain nearly close, I was shrined in double retirement."
Even if more than 160 years passed since it was written and it is being read by a non native english reader it still has a good, rich and understandable language.
|
|
133. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 10:01 am |
Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë, published on 16 October 1847.
second page, second paragraph as an example
"A breakfast-room adjoined the drawing-room, I slipped in there. It contained a bookcase: I soon possessed myself of a volume, taking care that it should be one stored with pictures. I mounted into the window-seat: gathering up my feet, I sat cross-legged, like a Turk; and, having drawn the red moreen curtain nearly close, I was shrined in double retirement."
Even if more than 160 years passed since it was written and it is being read by a non native english reader it still has a good, rich and understandable language.
Of course it is understandable. Because in that old English text, there is not non-English words. Are they ? If there is, may be one or two. Unlike Ottoman literature dominated by foreign origin words.There is no complicated half german - half french compound structures in their language as in Ottoman language had arabic and farsi compounds which would kill not only non-Turkish learners but also ordinary Turks to understand. Simple is that.
============================================
When it comes to the richness, Turkish is as rich as English, if it wasn´t been ignored by our "elites".
Edited (1/8/2013) by tunci
Edited (1/8/2013) by tunci
|
|
134. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:01 pm |
Of course it is understandable. Because in that old English text, there is not non-English words. Are they ? If there is, may be one or two. Unlike Ottoman literature dominated by foreign origin words.There is no complicated half german - half french compound structures in their language as in Ottoman language had arabic and farsi compounds which would kill not only non-Turkish learners but also ordinary Turks to understand. Simple is that.
============================================
When it comes to the richness, Turkish is as rich as English, if it wasn´t been ignored by our "elites".
what is english words? the words known and used by english speaking people or the words originates from english only? i read history of english and i think the first one is right. english is dominated by french german and many other words. but if someone offers to get rid of these foreign originated words in english, people call him crazy...
i dont support extreme usage of persian arabic words and compounds, and actually they are used in only some literature text, in official documents. people always have spoken understandable turkish with all its loan words throughout turkish history. but after french revolution nationatistic ideas were widespread. in the first half of the 20th century these ideas got out of control in many countries. in german, state heads thought of pure german race; in turkey, state heads thought pure turkish lnaguage, in some other countries some other oddness took place...
|
|
135. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:47 pm |
what is english words? the words known and used by english speaking people or the words originates from english only? i read history of english and i think the first one is right. english is dominated by french german and many other words. but if someone offers to get rid of these foreign originated words in english, people call him crazy...
i dont support extreme usage of persian arabic words and compounds, and actually they are used in only some literature text, in official documents. people always have spoken understandable turkish with all its loan words throughout turkish history. but after french revolution nationatistic ideas were widespread. in the first half of the 20th century these ideas got out of control in many countries. in german, state heads thought of pure german race; in turkey, state heads thought pure turkish lnaguage, in some other countries some other oddness took place...
Here a paragraph from Turkish novel called Araba Sevdası written in 1898 ;
not even 160 years ago. You can see the real extremness here.
"Burası (Çamlıca Bahçesi) namiyle İstanbul´da en evvel tanzim ve küşad olunmuş olan bahçedir. Birkaç zamandan beri rağbet-i ammeden bütün bütün mehcur olduğu cihetle, ekser eyyamda kapıları kapalı durur .
Yazın ve bahusus baharlarda bu bahçeyi açtırıp da aşağıki kapıdan içerisine girerseniz, beş on kadem ilerleyerek etrafınıza bir nazar ediverince muazzam ve mamur bir ravza-i dilküşa içinde bulunduğunuza derhal kaail olursunuz.
|
|
136. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 05:50 pm |
There is no complicated half german - half french compound structures in their language as in Ottoman language had arabic and farsi compounds which would kill not only non-Turkish learners but also ordinary Turks to understand. Simple is that.
I am happy to see there is a Turk who sees it the same way. I have been asking myself if I am blind or something.
You are right, ikicihan, English is nothing else but a salad of foreign influences. The estimated amount of native English words is 20-30 per cent and the origin of loanwords is described with this graph in Wikipedia:

But foreign words do not jump into our eyes like aliens when we read an English text. I can imagine two reasons for it:
1. The language contacts have been longer and reached wider stratums of population. Instead of contacts we could speak about a geographical language continuum. And diachronical as well.
2. The contact languages belong to the same Indo-European family, originate from the same parent language and most importantly share the same syntactic properties. Borrowing is more natural, almost unaware.
Edited (1/8/2013) by Abla
|
|
137. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 06:35 pm |
Pazartesi gününün Eski Türkçe adı İkinç tir. Salı gün adı dilimize iki ayrı dilden gelmiştir; ilki Arapça üçüncü gün anlamında Sellase, Selase ثلاثة sözcüğü, ikincisi de Farsça-Süryanice gene üçüncü gün anlamında Seşenbe sözcüğüdür. Çarşamba Sözcük, Farsça-Süryanice dördüncü gün anlamında "çıhar-şenbe/ çeharşenbe/çarşanba" sözcüğünden gelir. Eski Türkçe´de bu günün adı Törtünç > Dördüncü dür. Perşembe, Farsça-Süryanice beşinci gün anlamındaki "Penc-şenbe" sözcüğünden gelir, "Çarşamba" sözcüğüne uyaklı olarak "Perşembe" olarak söylenir. Eski Türkçedeki ismi Beşünç´tür. Cuma sözcüğünün kökünün Arapça olduğu varsayımına göre Kur´an bu günü haftalık toplantı günü sayması ile de uyuşarak "جمع CM´A" "toplanmak" kökünden gelir. Bu günün Türkçe adı, Altıncı Gün, Eski Türkçe Altınç tır. Cumartesi. Bu günün Eski Türkçe´deki anlamı Şanba´dır. Şanba kelimesi Türkiye dışındaki bütün Türki cumhuriyetlerde cumartesi olarak kullanılmaktadır. Eski Türkçe´de bu günün adı Yetinç/Yedinci dir.
Old Turkic: birinç kün ikinç kün üçünç kün törtinç kün beşinç kün altınç kün yetinç kün
Turkish: Pazartesi Salı Çarşamba Perşembe Cuma Cumartesi Pazar
Azərbaycan dili: Bazar ertəsi Çərşənbə axşamı Çərşənbə Cümə axşamı Cümə Şənbə Bazar
For English:
• Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [sun.nan.dæg] or [sun.nan.dæj), meaning "sun´s day". This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day. Many other European languages, including all of the Romance languages, have changed its name to the equivalent of "the Lord´s day" (based on Ecclesiastical Latin dies Dominica). In both West Germanic and North Germanic mythology the Sun is personified as a goddess, Sunna/Sól. • Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [mon.nan.dæg] or [mon.nan.dæj´ , meaning "Moon´s day". This is likely based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae. In North Germanic mythology, the Moon is personified as a god, Máni. • Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ti.wes.dæg] or [ti.wes.dæj], meaning "Tiw´s day." Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism. The name of the day is based on Latin dies Martis, "Day of Mars" (the Roman war god). • Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [woːd.nes.dæg] or [woːd.nes.dæj) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, "Day of Mercury". The connection between Mercury and Odin is more strained than the other syncretic connections. The usual explanation is that both Wodan and Mercury were considered psychopomps, or leaders of souls, in their respective mythologies; both are also associated with poetic and musical inspiration. The Icelandic Miðviku, German Mittwoch and Finnish keskiviikko all mean ´mid-week´. • Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [θuːn.res.dæg] or [θuːn.res.dæj]), meaning ´Þunor´s day´. Þunor means thunder or its personification, the Norse god known in Modern English as Thor. Similarly German Donnerstag (´thunder´s day´ and Scandinavian Torsdag (´Thor´s day´ . Thor´s day corresponds to Latin dies Iovis, "day of Jupiter", the chief of the Roman gods, wielder of the thunderbolt. • Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [fri.je.dæg] or [fri.je.dæj]), meaning the day of the Norse goddess Fríge. The Norse name for the planet Venus was Friggjarstjarna, ´Frigg´s star´. It is based on the Latin dies Veneris, "Day of Venus". Venus was the Roman goddess of beauty, love and sex. • Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians. Its original Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg (pronounced [sæ.tur.nes.dæg] or [sæ.tur.nes.dæj]). In Latin it was dies Saturni, "Day of Saturn". The Scandinavian Lørdag/Lördag deviates significantly as it has no reference to either the Norse or the Roman pantheon; it derives from old Norse laugardagr, literally ´washing-day´.
Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan
|
|
138. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 06:55 pm |
Here a paragraph from Turkish novel called Araba Sevdası written in 1898 ;
not even 160 years ago. You can see the real extremness here.
"Burası (Çamlıca Bahçesi) namiyle İstanbul´da en evvel tanzim ve küşad olunmuş olan bahçedir. Birkaç zamandan beri rağbet-i ammeden bütün bütün mehcur olduğu cihetle, ekser eyyamda kapıları kapalı durur .
Yazın ve bahusus baharlarda bu bahçeyi açtırıp da aşağıki kapıdan içerisine girerseniz, beş on kadem ilerleyerek etrafınıza bir nazar ediverince muazzam ve mamur bir ravza-i dilküşa içinde bulunduğunuza derhal kaail olursunuz.
küşad and ravza-i dilküşa words, i dont know these, all other understandable for me. yes, it is a heavy text. but it is a literature text, not a public language. We dont know whether the people at that time understand this or not, no one still alive.
after getting arabic education, it is not hard to understand. if i got farsi education besides i think i would understand the full text. in olden times arabic and farsi lessons are in all school and all educated people know and understand these words. These books written for them and at that time there was no communication problem with writers and educated people. un-educated people then and still dont read books. texts for all public has siplier language than literature books such as newspapers.
We dont understand these books now and we think that at the time the book written people dont understand, too. this is our prejudice. We dont understand these books know due to the fact that arabic and persian lessons were removed from public schools except some special schools and a long period of time exreme purification processs.
Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan
Edited (1/8/2013) by ikicihan
|
|
139. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 07:38 pm |
Of course it is understandable. Because in that old English text, there is not non-English words. Are they ? If there is, may be one or two. Unlike Ottoman literature dominated by foreign origin words.There is no complicated half german - half french compound structures in their language as in Ottoman language had arabic and farsi compounds which would kill not only non-Turkish learners but also ordinary Turks to understand. Simple is that.
============================================
When it comes to the richness, Turkish is as rich as English, if it wasn´t been ignored by our "elites".
E tu Brutus? 
You(plural) want a perfect language. This is an ideology. And it will never happen. There is no such thing. A perfect language can be only an artificial and anti-cultural language.
|
|
140. |
08 Jan 2013 Tue 08:45 pm |
E tu Brutus? 
You(plural) want a perfect language. This is an ideology. And it will never happen. There is no such thing. A perfect language can be only an artificial and anti-cultural language.
Each language is unique in its own way. I too am against extreme purification that is performed by ideological thinking.
Purifications are necessarry to a certain point. Extremism is wrong not only for purifications in language but for everything in life. We need to find the middle way.
|
|
|