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....the problem is that...
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150.       vona
150 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 05:45 pm

 

Quoting nevbahar

bu tartışma bitmeyecek sanki..

bir zamanlar münazara münakaşa mütalaa müzakere edebilen aziz milletimiz 80 yıldır tartışıp duruyor zaten..

vona .. bu sözcükleri isteyen kullansızn engle olan mı var diyeceksin.. ama söyle sokakta televizyonda ya da arkadaşlarından keç kez duydun ?lise yılları boyunca birkaç kez karşılaştığımız bu sözcüklerde ölmek üzere.. geçmiş ola

 

You must be joking or sleeping. They are not going to dead.  On the contrary to what you say mütalaa and müzakere are the most alive words of today´s Turkish. Wake up, dear, and look around

151.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 05:58 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

 

Those who consider themselves Turkish must be aware thatothers who ran a Empre in a made up language they called "Osmanlıca" never called themselves Turks.

The name they chose to give to those other then their own kind, especially those with  Turkish ethnic origins, was "etrak-ı biidrak".

If I am a proud Turkish citizen today, with a developing modern language and literature based on my own roots ...why should I try to keep connected to a culture that disowned me ? Unless Ottomans were right to call Turks "senseless".

There are racists all the time. Why do this make whole Ottoman culture a racist one? What kind of a logic is this?

 



Edited (1/9/2013) by gokuyum

152.       vona
150 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 06:07 pm

 

Quoting ikicihan

"etrak-ı biidrak" lardan günümüzde de bol miktarda var. bunlardan her ülkede ve her millette mutlaka bulunur. Özellikle türk diye belirtilmesi muhtemelen osmanli devletinin çok milliyetli olmasından kaynaklanmakta.

 

Etrak-ı biidatrak, means idraksiz Türkler, in English "Turks with no capacity to perceive", It shortly means "idiot Turks."  How can you defend such a racist saying?

153.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 06:16 pm

We are always talking about what had done to Turkish in the past.
I am wondering what is the current stuation in state and TDK.
Any official from TDK may enlighten us, tabii tenezzül ederlerse.

 

We give the name osmanlıca to a language used in sometime in the past.
At that time they dont call it osmanlıca, so we cant blame them they call it osmanlıca.
Official name was lisan-ı osmani meaning the official language in ottoman territory. That doesnt mean it is not turkish. for example we can call "American dili" or "America Birleşik Devletleri Dili" That doesnt mean its not english.

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154.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 06:33 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

ikicihan,

Senin şarkıyı söyleyenler Mehter takımı esvabını giydiler ve Hilafet Ordusuna katıldılar.

Türk milletine de bir faydaları olmadı....

 

Gerçek millet Kuva-i Milliyeye katıldı ve milletin düşmanlarıo ile döğüştü, seninkiler de milletle döğüştüler.

 

 

We support kuvva-i milliye. If i had lived at that time, i would join kuvva-i milliye without hesitating.
Hilafet is out of topic but if you want to know the khaliph support the kuvva-i milliye, too.
Not only language was corrupted, history corrupted much more. I recommend this book about the history subject. Sarıklı Mücahidler / Kurtuluş Savaşında  by Kadir Mısıroğlu. also you can read ilber ortaylı for non-ideologic but scientific good history.

155.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 08:14 pm

 

 I suggest, instead of arguing about Ottoman Language, we should talk about the English influence , especially onto our high education that is happening at present time.  

 

Prof. Dr. Oktay Sinanoğlu is dedicated himself to Turkish, is a good example for Turkish youth in point of protecting Turkish against English domination.

 

Tuna Serim tells about him in the following article ;

 

Oktay Sinanoglu Türkçemizin vahim durumunu anlatiyor:

"Insanlar istedikleri dili ögrensinler, ama egitim bir ülkenin kendi diliyle yapilir. Az bilenlerin hiç bilmeyenlere ögrettigi bilim, bilim degildir." diyor.
Örnekler veriyor, milletlerin yabanci dille egitim yaparak kimliklerini, bagimsizliklarini nasil kaybettiklerini, ama buna karsilik sömürgecilerin nasil  kazandigini anlatiyor. Ve bunlari anlatan deha, yillarini Amerika´nin en büyük üniversitelerinde hocalik yaparak, dünyada konferanslar vererek geçirmis bir kisi.

Yabanci dil ögrenmenin bu kadar revaçta oldugu, dil bilmeyenin ikinci sinif  vatandas muamelesi gördügü bir ülkede bu tür konusma önce ters gibi geldi, sonra Alman, Fransiz, Italyan, Ispanyol, hatta Isveç üniversitelerini düsündüm. Hiçbirinde kendi dillerinden baskasi kullanilmiyordu. Bilim dilini(!) seçen bir biz kalmisiz, anlasilan.Baska dilden okutulan bir bilim dali ülkenizde kullanilamadigi gibi yabanci ülkelerde de ise yaramayacak, çünkü o dili daha iyi konusanlar sizi  geçecekler. O zaman ülkede bilim adami yetismeyecek, ülkeyi baska ufuklara tasiyan kimseler de... Çünkü dil kullandirmak ülkenin sömürgelestirilmesidir.  Yabanci dili iyi konusanlar isletmeci, borsaci olur. Bilim ve digerleri o dili kendi  öz dili olarak konusanlara kalir. Bunlar Sinanoglu´nun ileri sürdükleri.

Sinanoglu´nun en ilginç yaklasimlarindan biri de kendi ülkesinin yabanci dille  egitim yapan bir üniversitesiyle ilgili anisiydi. Orta Dogu Teknik Üniversite´sinde kuramlari ile ilgili olarak verdigi konferansta ünlü bir profesörün yanina yaklasip  kulagina "Burasi ODTÜ, lütfen Türkçe degil, Ingilizce konusun." dedigini anlatiyor.Oktay Sinanoglu sabaha kadar konustu. Ülkesinin gelecegi için, Türk insaninin gelecegi için. Çünkü dili kullanmamanin bir buçuk nesil sonra o milleti  yok ettigini gözleriyle görmüstü ve bunun Türkiye´ye uygulanmasini istemiyordu. Sabah kiminle konussam bana Sinanoglu´ndan söz ediyordu. Amerika´da ve  dünyada bilim dalinda büyük hizmetler veren, Nobel´e aday olan Meydan Larousse´da söz edilen bir adam kendisini bilimden sonra ülkesinin gelecegine  adamisti.Bugün herkes onun söylediklerini ve bundan sonra yapacagini söyledigi savasi tartisiyor. Artik hiçbir sey eskisi gibi olmayacak.Ülkenin durumu karanlik  ama en azindan onun gibiler, düsünenler, savasçilar var. 

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156.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 08:47 pm

 

Quoting vona

 

 

Etrak-ı biidatrak, means idraksiz Türkler, in English "Turks with no capacity to perceive", It shortly means "idiot Turks."  How can you defend such a racist saying?

 

yeah i know its meaning and as i said before there are many idiots among turkish people. I dont think they mean all turks because many of them are turks, too. Every part of the world, every nation in the world has its own douchebags!

157.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 08:49 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 I suggest, instead of arguing about Ottoman Language, we should talk about the English influence , especially onto our high education that is happening at present time. 

 

 

Bye Bye Türkçe by Oktay Sinanoğlu is a good book, recommended.

158.       vona
150 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 10:04 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

Not really..

But below is the original source for the poem.

That is is different language!!

Yours is how it would have been written with the latin alphabet (yet I still have an issue with the meanings. It contains many words you dont come a cross with any books or any news papers in our daily lives)

يا رب بلای عشق ايله قيل آشنا بني
بر دم بلای عشقدن قیلما جدا بني

آز ایلمه عنایتيکي اهل درددن
یاني که چوق بلالره قیل مبتلا بني

 

No, it is not different language but your lacking knowledge of how Ottoman Turkish written in Arabic Alphabet. Here are some examples from the poem above:  درددن is drddn and should be read as derdden. The biggest problem of Ottoman Turkish is that vowels are often omited and you have to guess the word from the consonants. رب  = rb is rab and بر  = br is bir. Why not rb is rib and br is bar?  دم = dm is dem. - dn in the end of the word  عشقدن  is the Turkish ablative suffix -dan. It would be -den according to vowel harmony in some another word but yet would be written -dn. Strange? Funny? Or what? 

Not using vowels also caused a lot of common errors. One of them is cürüm in this saying: "ateş olsa cürmü kadar yer yakar." Cürüm should be cirim but because both word written in the same way (crm) people changed cirim (volume) to cürüm (crime) which makes the saying sound absurd but no one is aware of this absurdness.  

 

159.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 09 Jan 2013 Wed 10:27 pm

 

Quoting vona

 

 

No, it is not different language but your lacking knowledge of how Ottoman Turkish written in Arabic Alphabet. Here are some examples from the poem above:  درددن is drddn and should be read as derdden. The biggest problem of Ottoman Turkish is that vowels are often omited and you have to guess the word from the consonants. رب  = rb is rab and بر  = br is bir. Why not rb is rib and br is bar?  دم = dm is dem. - dn in the end of the word  عشقدن  is the Turkish ablative suffix -dan. It would be -den according to vowel harmony in some another word but yet would be written -dn. Strange? Funny? Or what? 

Not using vowels also caused a lot of common errors. One of them is cürüm in this saying: "ateş olsa cürmü kadar yer yakar." Cürüm should be cirim but because both word written in the same way (crm) people changed cirim (volume) to cürüm (crime) which makes the saying sound absurd but no one is aware of this absurdness.  

 

 

Vona you have some knowledge. Come and join my side. Be a Jedi

160.       vona
150 posts
 10 Jan 2013 Thu 04:42 am

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 

Vona you have some knowledge. Come and join my side. Be a Jedi

 

You know those who used the dark side were also known as dark jedi. Being jedi and using the light side of the Force are not the same thing always. Remember, Anakin Skywalker was a jedi and yet transformed into Darth Vader. But if you are like Obi-Wan Kenobi, it´s okay

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