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Our racist oath
(105 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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30.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 09:57 am

 

Quoting ikicihan

Quoting ikicihan and si++

One of my friends told me, he said the very first sentence of the oath, "I am Turkish, honest and hardworking." part to an american while working and waited to see what would his response be! The response was only one word: bullshit!

So what? Who cares an American saying "it´s bullshit"? Tsk tsk tsk...

 

Anyway!

 

I am turkish and i am happy with that. But why should i dedicate my existence to turkish existence? Then why our grandfathers died before? During Dardanelles war or independence war? Why did they lost their lives? Turkishness is an identity, There would never be such identity now on these lands we still call Turchia, if they didn´t lose their lives for their country, isn´t it a dedication to Turkishness? why should anyone dedicate their own existence to an identity, i have never understand that. Do you die for your ID? Remember, what we were used to say: "My existence shall be dedicated to the Turkish existence." Anyway I think I understand you. If I´m not wrong your point is you don´t care about living under Turkish flag. Is that right?

 

You are mixing apples and pears. OK then can you sort it out for me? What do you understand of "I dedicate my exisance to Turkish existence" (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun)? Doesn´t it include dieing for it for example? If not what it (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun) means to you that you would refrain yourself from doing it?

Defending the country we live in and belong to is one of our main duites. You may or may not be turkish, it does not matter. In dardanelles, many kurds and arabs and even armenians died to defend this country, the majority was turkish of course. And they did not died for turkish identity, they died for defending their country. Nationality, race is totaly different than the country defence. They tried to save the country, not the turkish ID.

I love my flag, even if its called as turkish flag,  actually it is turkey´s flag. BTW, no problem calling it as turkish flag. If you feel you belong to turkey, you should love and respect the flag, no matter what your racial origin is.

 

 

 

31.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 12:54 pm

 

Quoting alameda

If you are in my house, enjoying the fruits and comforts, I damn well expect you to help me defend it against those who want to destroy it.

Then there are those who are like the ones delivering the Trojan Horse. 

BTW I do know some Jewish people who to today will not purchase any German products. 

 

 

 

I think you might have been misinformed about fruits/comfort/your house thing.

First of all, nobody is saying that they wont  defend defend country.. Of course they will.. But what I am saying is that they dont NEED TO BE A RACIST to do that.

It will be quite wrong to think ONLY racist people can defend  or die for their country.

Second mistake is your house thing.. Countries are not a single house.. That is a huge mistake.. What if then the others claim they are the owner of the house and tell you if you want to keep eating the fruit, you will listen to what they say and accept it? What if they tell you that you are not a Turk anymore and a Kurd from now on?etc etc.

Anyway.. The bottom line is that :

Our oath was a racist oath, it was embaressing for all of us and it has gone for good..

32.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 01:29 pm

The problem with the purported revolution is the same as the criticism traditionally made about Ataturk´s reforms: prescriptive.

When Ataturk prescribed those changes he was addressing an impoverished people who had not been allowed to choose. Their literacy rate stood at a fraction of what it is today. They had paid a great price for their ignorance and illeteracy hence waiting aimlessly for someone or some institution to give them a new direction. These were the people who would chant: Long live Sultan in the streets. Ataturk had to fill this gap or else his own people would tear him into pieces. He had the power to make his reform thanks to his heroic efforts during the war and his people knew this very well.

Furthermore, literature in his age was a mix of didactic and romantic and the philosophy and religion were a lot more prescriptive. The Japenese were considering their King a God and the Germans were preparing to declare themselves as the ubermensch. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin would turn the world in a blood bath. Every other little or big ruler of the day would adopt this prescriptive approach and some would commit serious crimes. Ataturk did none of this. He just tried to stimulate his people by abandoning superstitions.

Funny thing is that they are trying to reverse engineer Ataturk in a modern world and the method they use is prescriptive just like thehandsom´s. i.e. justice and development (it only happens when you close your eyes to the real world)

 

 

 

33.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 01:29 pm

The problem with the purported revolution is the same as the criticism traditionally made about Ataturk´s reforms: prescriptive.

When Ataturk prescribed those changes he was addressing an impoverished people who had not been allowed to choose. Their literacy rate stood at a fraction of what it is today. They had paid a great price for their ignorance and illeteracy hence waiting aimlessly for someone or some institution to give them a new direction. These were the people who would chant: Long live Sultan in the streets. Ataturk had to fill this gap or else his own people would tear him into pieces. He had the power to make his reform thanks to his heroic efforts during the war and his people knew this very well.

Furthermore, literature in his age was a mix of didactic and romantic and the philosophy and religion were a lot more prescriptive. The Japenese were considering their King a God and the Germans were preparing to declare themselves as the ubermensch. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin would turn the world in a blood bath. Every other little or big ruler of the day would adopt this prescriptive approach and some would commit serious crimes. Ataturk did none of this. He just tried to stimulate his people by abandoning superstitions.

Funny thing is that they are trying to reverse engineer Ataturk in a modern world and the method they use is prescriptive just like thehandsom´s. i.e. justice and development (it only happens when you close your eyes to the real world)

 

 

 

34.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 01:50 am

Nobody is reverse engineering anything/anybody  specially Ataturk and his reforms.

But when people bring Ataturk to defend their primitive ideas such as praising a racist oath from 1930s, I think they seriously damage Ataturk´s image.

35.       Abla
3648 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 02:22 am

Quote: si++

Then why our grandfathers died before? During Dardanelles war or independence war? Why did they lost their lives?

This is the most frightening thought: that victims of wars suffered and died in vain. That the ultimate injustice was done to them. In order to get rid of this disturbing thought cults of honor and rememberance are created in every country. If not it would be impossible to find soldiers for the next meaningless wars.

36.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 05:03 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

This is the most frightening thought: that victims of wars suffered and died in vain. That the ultimate injustice was done to them. In order to get rid of this disturbing thought cults of honor and rememberance are created in every country. If not it would be impossible to find soldiers for the next meaningless wars.

 

i smell an anti-militarist aproach here

formal rememberance ceremonies arent necessary but they didnt died for nothing also. wars are necessary in some conditions. we cannot tell the enemy that we dont want war so we will let you in freely! Many soldiers in dardanelles were young students who went to war voluntarily. Defending the country is extremely important and worths to die for in our belief system.

37.       si++
3785 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 10:16 am

 

Quoting Abla

 

This is the most frightening thought: that victims of wars suffered and died in vain. That the ultimate injustice was done to them. In order to get rid of this disturbing thought cults of honor and rememberance are created in every country. If not it would be impossible to find soldiers for the next meaningless wars.

 

In vain? what do you mean? They all died for their country. If they didn´t, thing would have taken diffrent paths and probably there was no Turchia where she is today.

38.       si++
3785 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 10:18 am

 

Quoting si++

 

Quoting ikicihan

Quoting ikicihan and si++

One of my friends told me, he said the very first sentence of the oath, "I am Turkish, honest and hardworking." part to an american while working and waited to see what would his response be! The response was only one word: bullshit!

So what? Who cares an American saying "it´s bullshit"? Tsk tsk tsk...

 

Anyway!

 

I am turkish and i am happy with that. But why should i dedicate my existence to turkish existence? Then why our grandfathers died before? During Dardanelles war or independence war? Why did they lost their lives? Turkishness is an identity, There would never be such identity now on these lands we still call Turchia, if they didn´t lose their lives for their country, isn´t it a dedication to Turkishness? why should anyone dedicate their own existence to an identity, i have never understand that. Do you die for your ID? Remember, what we were used to say: "My existence shall be dedicated to the Turkish existence." Anyway I think I understand you. If I´m not wrong your point is you don´t care about living under Turkish flag. Is that right?

 

You are mixing apples and pears. OK then can you sort it out for me? What do you understand of "I dedicate my exisance to Turkish existence" (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun)? Doesn´t it include dieing for it for example? If not what it (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun) means to you that you would refrain yourself from doing it? 

Defending the country we live in and belong to is one of our main duites. You may or may not be turkish, it does not matter. In dardanelles, many kurds and arabs and even armenians died to defend this country, the majority was turkish of course. And they did not died for turkish identity, they died for defending their country. Nationality, race is totaly different than the country defence. They tried to save the country, not the turkish ID.

I love my flag, even if its called as turkish flag,  actually it is turkey´s flag. BTW, no problem calling it as turkish flag. If you feel you belong to turkey, you should love and respect the flag, no matter what your racial origin is.

 

 

 

 

 

Houston, we have problem. So far no answer has been received.

39.       Abla
3648 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 10:28 am

Quote: si++

In vain? what do you mean?

That is what I said: it is an unbearable thought.

 

Maybe it is unavoidable in certain historical situations. But I do not believe in clean wars. There is always someone somewhere who benefits. And the rest just suffer. (It does not lessen the sorrow we feel for them.)

thehandsom liked this message
40.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Nov 2013 Sun 01:01 pm

 

Quoting ikicihan

 

 

i smell an anti-militarist aproach here

formal rememberance ceremonies arent necessary but they didnt died for nothing also. wars are necessary in some conditions. we cannot tell the enemy that we dont want war so we will let you in freely! Many soldiers in dardanelles were young students who went to war voluntarily. Defending the country is extremely important and worths to die for in our belief system.

 

I agree with Abla´s approach here.. No war is necessary. As long as you have the army and show that you are ´more ready´ than the others, you are making the justification for others to arm as well. Pakistan makes atom bombs because India has some; Russia sells rockets to Syria and Turkey buys some rockets to stop them etc.. So it is a circle in the end.. The result is a very good portion of budgets spared for the defense and the arms. We could cure and erase many bad/evil things in the world if that money had been spent for people´s needs. 

 

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