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Our racist oath
(105 Messages in 11 pages - View all)
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20.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 10:19 am

 

Quoting alameda

Excuse me, but could you clarify just what you are talking about? I am thinking it is this: 

"Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım. Yasam, küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, budunumu özümden çok sevmektir. Ülküm, yükselmek, ileri gitmektir. Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.

English:

I am Turkish, honest and hardworking. My principle is to protect the younger to respect the elder, to love my homeland and my nation more than myself. My ideal is to rise, to progress. My existence shall be dedicated to the Turkish existence."

As a citizen of a country, IOW not stateless, you have an obligation to defend it. This is a basic requirment of citizenship of any country. 

 

 

I think your translation is a watered down translation

It starts with ´I am a Turk´. There are people in Turkey and they dont call themselves Turks.

That is as simple as that. (think of German kids starting their school days with "I am a german", or English kids, "I am an English"(

The oat as it was itself a DIVIDING element in Turkey.

It was dividing people.

The basic requirement of a citizenship is being a good citizen not a racist citizen.

This oat was part of an engineering project of the people: Making them Turk and Sunni.

In Turkey there is an idiom ´deli gomlegi giymek/giydirmek´ which can be translated as ´putting on a straight jacket´. A straight jacket was put on people in Turkey  in 1920s/1930s. And it was forced not to take it off for many years. 

Although it is late but we are beginning to wake up.

 

21.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 11:32 am

22.       denizli
970 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 03:35 pm

I think you guys calling it racist should just chill out! It´s a NATIONAL ANTHEM, what do you expect. Our anthem starts out with "O Canada we stand on guard for thee", so what, I´ve never been a soldier. And lately people have been saying it should be re-written to not be sexist. Please take these anthems with a grain of salt, people.

Racism is about hating another race or believing another race is not as good as others. So many should be offended by referring to the oath as racist.

I also think people should have the right to not sing it if they don´t want to. So fine don´t sing it everyday but don´t call it racist either.

 

23.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 03:45 pm

Racism is about hating another race or believing another race is not as good as others. So many should be offended by referring to the oath as racist.

 

No, not really !....In some countries that is called freedom of thought. Both are legal, unless you start shooting people of that other race.

hazzel liked this message
24.       Kelowna
375 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 04:45 pm

 

Quoting denizli

I think you guys calling it racist should just chill out! It´s a NATIONAL ANTHEM, what do you expect. Our anthem starts out with "O Canada we stand on guard for thee", so what, I´ve never been a soldier. And lately people have been saying it should be re-written to not be sexist. Please take these anthems with a grain of salt, people.

Racism is about hating another race or believing another race is not as good as others. So many should be offended by referring to the oath as racist.

I also think people should have the right to not sing it if they don´t want to. So fine don´t sing it everyday but don´t call it racist either.

 

 

you made a mistake the issue had nothing to do with we stand on guard for thee which never represented us as being offical soldiers ( which by the way, we do allow females to soldiers and even get deployed ) it means we stand for our country and protect our fellow citizens. Meaning - human rights and basic human needs are given to all canadians, that each person is important no matter what their ancestral background or religion is.This also includes mental status, health status those who are in jail.

what the issue was with the lyrics is that the song was developed in french and when translated to english is was incorrectly translated. There was gender issue in a particular line:

In 1990 it was noted that the English lyrics (thus not the true version of the song) were a tad… sexist.  Most of us scoff at the idea of “all thy sons command” as sexist, since we know it is meant to refer to all of us Canadians.  “Sons” meaning all Canadians, not the command of the male gender.  Right? Well, given that nowhere in the usually gender-specific French language is there any mention of ‘sons’, why did we chose to include it?

This is the reason why the request to change it...........the anthum is not the same in french and english!

I am sure our debate will continue since, as Canadians, we are wonderful for feeling passion on a subject, then touting the status quo (just like the GST and the penny which is coming back again).  I personally like the flow of “sons command”,  Were this a discussion of “Amen” (another translation that does not mean male-orientated), I would hammer point for point the absurdities of such a debate. But this is an issue that some feel excludes the amazing contributions that one half of the population had and has in the ongoing existence of our country.  I am not calling for a lyrics change.  I am saying that it’s hard to protest the change in a song that, when they alternate between the English and the proper French lyrics, we all mumble like Charlie Brown cartoon adults in the hope no one knows that we don’t truly know our own anthem.

Oh.  Canada.  Regardless of your lyrics, I still do stand on guard for thee.



Edited (11/1/2013) by Kelowna

25.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 07:36 pm

 

Quoting denizli

I think you guys calling it racist should just chill out! It´s a NATIONAL ANTHEM, what do you expect. Our anthem starts out with "O Canada we stand on guard for thee", so what, I´ve never been a soldier. And lately people have been saying it should be re-written to not be sexist. Please take these anthems with a grain of salt, people.

Racism is about hating another race or believing another race is not as good as others. So many should be offended by referring to the oath as racist.

I also think people should have the right to not sing it if they don´t want to. So fine don´t sing it everyday but don´t call it racist either.

 

 

We are not talking about our national anthem (though there are racist parts in there too). We have been talking about an oat, started in 1930s with the inspiration from fascists of Europe like Hitler and Musollini.

They got rid of their society from these type open racism long time ago. 

We had much resistance and managed to stop it in 2013.. lol

 

26.       alameda
3499 posts
 01 Nov 2013 Fri 11:50 pm

I think I understand what your issue is with this, however just about every country has similar issues. Poland was comprised of many different tribes, the Poles were just one of them, but now the country is named Poland. There is a similar situation in England. However names are chosen rather than call the countries #1 $2 #3...even then there would be an argument as to who was #1...

FWIW, I am under the impression a Turk is a citizen of the Republic of Turkey, and they are composed of many blends. Humans have inhabited the area for millenia, Hittites, Lycians...and on and on....

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

We are not talking about our national anthem (though there are racist parts in there too). We have been talking about an oat, started in 1930s with the inspiration from fascists of Europe like Hitler and Musollini.

They got rid of their society from these type open racism long time ago. 

We had much resistance and managed to stop it in 2013.. lol

 

 

 

27.       vineyards
1954 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 01:49 am

There is nothing wrong with the anthem, nor is there anything wrong with the oaths. I would say this is some sort of blindness or a lapse of reason. It is like refusing to walk on a Belgian pavement since it reminds you of the WWI.

This form of light hearted social democratic demeanour is rather typical for those fighting with their own shadows. As Shakespeare put it: "Much Ado About Nothing."

These people -after having read so many books- still fail to perceive real life. They are pointing out at a theorotical world where people are like beads on an abacus. Black is black, white is white; left is left and right is right. Here is a Turkish word you might need in this connection: basmakalip. (cliche or formulaic) and this is how they are. 

So, if you don´t want to offend them, don´t recite those oaths and don´t defend them or you will be labeled.

In fact, it is so easy to manipulate them: just bring out a couple of newspapers with a fake intellectual outlook. Attack a few symbols they hate. Voila, you have an army of comrades who will gladly help destroy your system until it becomes completely defenseless. German social democrats did this favour to the Nazis, why wouldn´t ours?

 

 

 

28.       alameda
3499 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 02:18 am

If you are in my house, enjoying the fruits and comforts, I damn well expect you to help me defend it against those who want to destroy it.

Then there are those who are like the ones delivering the Trojan Horse. 

BTW I do know some Jewish people who to today will not purchase any German products. 

Quoting vineyards

There is nothing wrong with the anthem, nor is there anything wrong with the oaths. I would say this is some sort of blindness or a lapse of reason. It is like refusing to walk on a Belgian pavement since it reminds you of the WWI.

This form of light hearted social democratic demeanour is rather typical for those fighting with their own shadows. As Shakespeare put it: "Much Ado About Nothing."

These people -after having read so many books- still fail to perceive real life. They are pointing out at a theorotical world where people are like beads on an abacus. Black is black, white is white; left is left and right is right. Here is a Turkish word you might need in this connection: basmakalip. (cliche or formulaic) and this is how they are. 

So, if you don´t want to offend them, don´t recite those oaths and don´t defend them or you will be labeled.

In fact, it is so easy to manipulate them: just bring out a couple of newspapers with a fake intellectual outlook. Attack a few symbols they hate. Voila, you have an army of comrades who will gladly help destroy your system until it becomes completely defenseless. German social democrats did this favour to the Nazis, why wouldn´t ours?

 

 

 

 

 



Edited (11/2/2013) by alameda

29.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 02:21 am

Quoting ikicihan and si++

One of my friends told me, he said the very first sentence of the oath, "I am Turkish, honest and hardworking." part to an american while working and waited to see what would his response be! The response was only one word: bullshit!

So what? Who cares an American saying "it´s bullshit"? Tsk tsk tsk...

 

Anyway!

 

I am turkish and i am happy with that. But why should i dedicate my existence to turkish existence? Then why our grandfathers died before? During Dardanelles war or independence war? Why did they lost their lives? Turkishness is an identity, There would never be such identity now on these lands we still call Turchia, if they didn´t lose their lives for their country, isn´t it a dedication to Turkishness? why should anyone dedicate their own existence to an identity, i have never understand that. Do you die for your ID? Remember, what we were used to say: "My existence shall be dedicated to the Turkish existence." Anyway I think I understand you. If I´m not wrong your point is you don´t care about living under Turkish flag. Is that right?

 

You are mixing apples and pears.

Defending the country we live in and belong to is one of our main duites. You may or may not be turkish, it does not matter. In dardanelles, many kurds and arabs and even armenians died to defend this country, the majority was turkish of course. And they did not died for turkish identity, they died for defending their country. Nationality, race is totaly different than the country defence. They tried to save the country, not the turkish ID.

I love my flag, even if its called as turkish flag, actually it is turkey´s flag. BTW, no problem calling it as turkish flag. If you feel you belong to turkey, you should love and respect the flag, no matter what your racial origin is.

 



Edited (11/2/2013) by ikicihan

30.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Nov 2013 Sat 09:57 am

 

Quoting ikicihan

Quoting ikicihan and si++

One of my friends told me, he said the very first sentence of the oath, "I am Turkish, honest and hardworking." part to an american while working and waited to see what would his response be! The response was only one word: bullshit!

So what? Who cares an American saying "it´s bullshit"? Tsk tsk tsk...

 

Anyway!

 

I am turkish and i am happy with that. But why should i dedicate my existence to turkish existence? Then why our grandfathers died before? During Dardanelles war or independence war? Why did they lost their lives? Turkishness is an identity, There would never be such identity now on these lands we still call Turchia, if they didn´t lose their lives for their country, isn´t it a dedication to Turkishness? why should anyone dedicate their own existence to an identity, i have never understand that. Do you die for your ID? Remember, what we were used to say: "My existence shall be dedicated to the Turkish existence." Anyway I think I understand you. If I´m not wrong your point is you don´t care about living under Turkish flag. Is that right?

 

You are mixing apples and pears. OK then can you sort it out for me? What do you understand of "I dedicate my exisance to Turkish existence" (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun)? Doesn´t it include dieing for it for example? If not what it (Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun) means to you that you would refrain yourself from doing it?

Defending the country we live in and belong to is one of our main duites. You may or may not be turkish, it does not matter. In dardanelles, many kurds and arabs and even armenians died to defend this country, the majority was turkish of course. And they did not died for turkish identity, they died for defending their country. Nationality, race is totaly different than the country defence. They tried to save the country, not the turkish ID.

I love my flag, even if its called as turkish flag,  actually it is turkey´s flag. BTW, no problem calling it as turkish flag. If you feel you belong to turkey, you should love and respect the flag, no matter what your racial origin is.

 

 

 

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