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Forum Messages Posted by alameda

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Thread: Denial versus freedom of speech

1461.       alameda
3499 posts
 31 May 2009 Sun 05:39 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

I think there´s a huge difference between denying something that has already happened and commenting on recent events be it by means of articles, cartoons or public speeches. Everybody´s free to talk about Holocaust and so everybody should be free to talk about acts of terrorism. It is known who is responsible for Holocaust and we know who was responsible for the terrorism that cartoon portrayed. Not letting people talk about it would be like forbidding to accuse Nazists of Holocaust.

 

The cartoons portrayed Muslims as a group in a very negative manner....one in particular had the basic creed of Islam and what was supposed to have been a protrayal of the Prophet of Islam (saw),  neither of which were responsible for the terrorist attacks.  They were designed to belittle and  provoke....and they did. 

 

Could you imagine anyone today doing something similar with a Jewish theme?  I´m quite sure there would have been a strong outcry against such an activity, it probably would have been more sophisticated, due to the fact that the Jewish community has more experience dealing with the issue and "Western" society.

 

At the least the "cartoons" were in bad taste......in reality they were a part of a propaganda program against a group.  Yes, they have a legal right to have been done, but was that a wise decision?  Was it a decision that will help bring about understanding and help ease tensions?

 

My moral compass says they were a very bad idea.



Edited (5/31/2009) by alameda



Thread: TORTURE

1462.       alameda
3499 posts
 31 May 2009 Sun 04:56 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

I think it goes without saying that tortures are hideous and should not take place in ANY part of the world. I can´t see how a country resorting to torture (US in this case) can call itself righteous. Tortures are never justified or morally acceptable.

 

As for the gang/club/camp part, I wonder why some people find it hard to understand that some other people have sense of humour and are not afraid to show it.

 

Not only is torture hideous, it is not effective in getting true actionable information.  Under torture, victims will say anything to make it stop.  It´s a totaly inefficient and counter productive method.  I can´t see any positive rational for it´s use.   It´s sadistic gratification.

 

It is shocking seeing how easily people can be led to commit such acts.  In this I´m referring to the Stanford Prison Experiment.

 

Torturers exist because they feel their actions have aproval of their surperiors and the larger society.  It seems that only by very loudly and clearly proclaiming it is NOT acceptable, it will stop.

 

"Officers´ messages

In light of this point it is interesting to ask what messages were being provided by fellow and, more critically, senior officers in the units where torture took place? Did those who didn´t approve fail to speak out for fear of being seen as weak or disloyal? Did senior officers who knew what was going on turn a blind eye or else simply file away reports of misbehaviour? "

 

One important part of that process is the dehumanization of the torture victim....and that takes place through making fun, belittling, attributing false attributes and objectifying others with little regard for the feelings of the victim.

 

We all have to be vigilent of our conduct.



Edited (5/31/2009) by alameda [format]
Edited (5/31/2009) by alameda



Thread: Denial versus freedom of speech

1463.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 May 2009 Sat 05:21 pm

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

Sorry that I wasn´t clear, but to me the Holocaust is more than ´just´ 6 million Jews, to me it is also the gypsies, gays, political opponents, and ideed the Russian who were butchered.

 

No, I haven´t seen the pictures - on purpose - but I´ve read about them and yes, I do find that horrible. I do find the guys who did that, including the leaders (no, ´Ich habe es nicht gewüsst - I didn´t know) awful, psychopathic and first in line to be judged and sentenced.

 

But I still object to the fact that whatever horrible happened there in the POW-camps, or how many people felt insulted/hurt by the cartoons, or other examples that one can compare it (or even name it in the same sentence) with the Holocaust. To me, maybe I´m a bit sentimental in that regarding my fathers history, it sounds just a little too much as trivializing the horrors of 1933-1945.

 

Trudy, many of us have been deeply effected by WWII....and WWI. ...many who lived through it are still alive.  IOW it is still very much in living memory.  I have seen the tatoos, the schrapnel in flesh, heard crys of  nightmares, seen photos of missing relatives, helped dry tears.......I have known people who were in concentration camps......Jews and Roma in particular.

 

Holocausts do not come out of a vacuum, there are stages to them.  It´s like getting the flu, first you don´t really feel quite well....immediate attention and care to the system is needed.  If not rapidly attended to  you can be overcome with fever, which goes into your lungs and you die.  If you are careful in your conduct (that is washing your hands, fortifying your system, not getting run down) , you may avoid it.

 

Hate speech, that is the demonizing whole groups of people, making fun of them, belittling them.....IS one of the stages towards genocide/holocaust. ....and we want to prevent another holoaust.  It is only in recognizing (not denying)  the signs that we can do that.



Thread: TORTURE

1464.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 May 2009 Sat 09:09 am

 

Quoting AlphaF

Flash news on internet today are pirate copies of new photographs, showing Americans torturing Iraqi civilians in Iraqi jails. The rumor is that President Obama officially stopped  free circulation of these photographs

 

The scenes are so disgusting and inhuman that I could not bring myself to forward them to this group.

 

I am sad.

 

So am I....and I can´t imagine why anyone, other than those who would have to see such disgusting things for legal matters, would want such images seared into their brains.

 

It has only been in the last few years the meaning of psychopath has become more clear.  Fortunately, most humans have some degree of compassion.....and shame.



Thread: Denial versus freedom of speech

1465.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 May 2009 Sat 05:09 am

 

Quoting lessluv

For the record I think holocaust denial is wrong but I´m not so sure about an actual law.....shouldn´t we have a right to ask questions.... we know it was true, so the truth will show. I would perfer to have all the facts available and to make an informed decision. This law kind of enters the realm of thought crime which is terribly hard to police especially in a system that is already so corrupt

 

I don´t think making a law punishable be jail time and fines is the answer, that just causes things to go underground where they fester.

 

Anyway, for what it´s worth, I think every war is a holocaust.



Thread: Denial versus freedom of speech

1466.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 May 2009 Sat 04:41 am

 

Quoting Trudy

Sorry Vineyards, I disagree with you at one point: comparing the Holocaust with mocking cartoons is comparing Istanbul with Kemaliye.

 

Actually, the mocking cartoons (and the adamant justification/denial is one of the stages towards Genocide....a Holocast....it dehumanizes, mocks and belittles  "others"....concentrating on the "otherness"....going down the trail to dehumanization of the "other" group.

 

 



Thread: Whats ur suggestion for a more liveable world??

1467.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 May 2009 Sat 02:04 am

I think being grateful/appreciative for what we have would help.  Too few (myself included) seem to realize what they have,  consequently,  are constantly trying to "improve" what is already wonderful, instead of being grateful for what is.  "We" tend to overlook the nice and concentrate on the not so nice.

 

Some cases in point, the person who gets a "nose job" because they think a different one would be better. I have too many friends who had beautiful noses, but now have silly (on their faces) wittle pugg noses., Women who get boob jobs, only to later find there are hazards they never thought of. 

 

More than a few software programs I´ve loved have been "upgraded" to uselessness. 



Thread: What made you smile today :)

1468.       alameda
3499 posts
 29 May 2009 Fri 09:35 pm

A mourning dove couple made a nest on the top of a palm tree outside my office....so sweet...the cooing is very soothing.  It´s so sweet seeing them with little branches and assorted material for making their "home" more comfortable.



Thread: This Decade

1469.       alameda
3499 posts
 29 May 2009 Fri 01:03 am

 

Quoting teaschip

 

 

Our ideas about love is confused?  Are you pertaining to divorces or gay marriages...what specifically?

Yes, I like our technology but I´m afraid to think it will be this type of technology that in the end will destroy us.  You will always have people complain... ultimately you have the decision to either allow them in your inner circle or not.

 

 

 

 I am speaking of the larger context of love, not carnal love.  We hear the sayings, "I love those shoes, that car, that (insert celebrity of your choice).  I would not consider that love...rather desire.....more related to ego.  That is what I mean. If you love, you protect, you cherish.  There is romantic love, carnal love, sisterly love, brotherly love, parental love, mother love....marital love....all are aspects of love...but the ego does not exist in the love I´m speaking of.

 

It is interesting to note in Arabic and Turkish there are different words for love.  Sev & aþk are different states of love.  Sev is a begining state related to Aþk which is the merging with the beloved as one....the state where the self and the beloved are in the process of becoming one...united.

 

Are you familiar with the story of Layla and Majnun?



Thread: This Decade

1470.       alameda
3499 posts
 28 May 2009 Thu 09:26 pm

 

Quoting teaschip

 

 

Hmm, let´s see these are your words...not mine.  Roll eyes

 

maybe you could read a little more..........

"Our ideas about love are confused. On the positive side, at least love, being loved and loving is the goal. At least eyes are now open and demanding change.

 

As far as technology, we can now read poetry, literature and enjoy the benefits of libraries, art collections, research information, exchange thoughts and ideas with others thousands of miles away. I love this technology.

 

For some reason it´s in human nature to complain more then express gratitude for our situation. I don´t have a toothache or headache today (although I now feel one coming on). I witnessed two doves making a nest and cooing because my eyes worked. I heard the dove cooing because my ears work. I saw the mist over the hills with the trees looking like an ancient Chinese painting. I saw more that was beautiful than ugly."



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