This too will go unnoticed.

Trudy, it is wrong to assume that Alameda is trying to find other incidents matching the magnitude of  the Holocaust. Both she and I are trying to find just other examples which are still going unnoticed no matter how small or how big. Man some of them are actually quite big events.

Have you seen the pictures taken in US POW camps? Although we have access to the uncensored ones, they are still apalling. These incident have happened only recently in a society where people have better means compared to 60 years ago. All these people fell to the hands of the butchers who talk about democracy, civilization and freedom.

You never said a word about 18 million unarmed Soviet people who were butchered by Nazis pretty much the same way.

Cool down folks. Keep on discussing, this is the purpose of writing here. Nevertheless, you should make sure you are contributing with ideas worth discussing.

Oscarray, we read and understood your initial message. Now is the time for providing material supporting your point of view.

You left your earlier argument hanging in the balance. So, many people took offense at it. We don´t want to offend anyone don´t we? All we are seeking is understanding...

Also no matter how boring you may find somebody´s post, it is not polite to call it boring. There are so many messages that don´t appeal to me. I usually skip them. Imagine what would happen to our messages if a professional editor went through them. We are a bunch of amateurs striving to exchange opinions and to learn somethings in the process.

Alameda, what is more saddening is that common people have been agitated enough to jump on the band wagon of hatred without ever thinking about the consequences. The streets everywhere are full of people who have turned this into a football like fanaticism. Everybody is talking about us and them. It is no surprize that this system keeps eradicating those defending peace and advancement (John Lennon, Kennedy, Bhuttos).

You certainly remember several episodes in our near history when the hopes of peace and brotherhood kept people together. After all those years, we have falcons and neocons running us the Hitler style.

They say 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust and if you say where is the proof, you are usually attacked on suspicion that you are a Holocaust denier. I have nothing to say about the magnitude and gravity of these string of incidents which we collectively call as the Holocaust. There is however a need for freely asking questions and to refuse some of the answers when you are not quite satisfied about their accuracy.

There are other tragic incidents in history (not necessarily comparable) which are very well documented and undeniable. For example, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagazaki were two such events. You don´t even need to deny them because it is perfectly legal to sing praises of the virtues of killing one hundred thousand people in one go and maiming several folds more of them while dooming generations to suffer the consequences of the radiactive emission. You are free to go to any forum on the net and openly defend the bombings. You may even be harassed if you take sides with the Japs. After all, the US government has never officially apoligized to the families of the victims and sufferers.

As for the comparison between the Mohammad cartoons and the Holocaust. A principle is a principle. The law does not allow people committing smaller offenses to walk away. If you kill one person you usually get a life sentence. If you kill one million people, you still get the same punishment because the principles are the same. This is plain truth just like both Istanbul and Kemaliye are essentially towns of different sizes.

We are not talking about a couple of Muslim types who can be corrected by showing a few cartoons to them.  We are talking in billions when we refer to the Muslims.  Daydreamer explains the basis of the restrictions against the Holocaust denial in her country around the principle of preventing the spreading of hatred. Well,  aren´t these people spreading hatred among more than a billion people elsewhere and contributing to the hatred between civilizations and aren´t they using the excuse of free speech as a cover?

P.S.  Nazis killed a total of 46 million Russians 18 million of which were innocent civilians who fell victim to a mentality that regarded communists as subhuman creatures. This was also a holocaust, the fact that Russia was a big country and eventually  struck back doesn´t change the nature of the incident.

Today, no one remembers the sacrifices of the Red Army and of (Soviet) Russian people in general.

They are charging heck a lot of money. I am pretty sure most ordinary people are automatically saved from any hazards since they simply can´t afford it.

I went to Cappadocia twice. The atmosphere is great. If you go there with a group of friends, you will probably enjoy it more. After tiring daytime walks, it is nice to take sip from the local wine enjoying the unpolluted dry air that makes you fall asleep sooner.

I am sorry about the old chap. God only knows where death will find us.

Trudy, you see sometimes, some matters are given an exception status and the Holocaust is one of them. In order to guarantee that everyone pays homage to its victims even the freedom of speech has been stretched a little bit. The whole incident is something that still hurts the conscience of Europe. Many thing right or wrong were done in order to make up for the pain inflicted on European Jewry and that includes the creation of Israel on somebody else´s land. If we take the reason for all those laws were made as our basis, we must also not let people curse Islam, mock its prophet by way of those silly cartoons that they are so proud of. After all, that shows, there are indeed limitations on the freedom of speech, you can´t enjoy this right at the expense of others´ hurt feelings.

After all it is still the same old world populated by the herds of those three - four prophets. All evil is committed in their name and somehow we never learn to regret. There is a universal rule that could guide us: politeness. Unfortunately, no one takes heed of it.

That strange international treaty is called Montreux Treaty and it is the basis of Turkey´s regaining control over the Turkish Straits.  At the time, it was a resounding victory for Turkey. The parties involved, most notably Russia has always had problems with certain clauses like international aircraft carriers not being allowed passage through the straits which effectively bars their aircraft carriers located in the Black Sea from navigating in the Mediterranean. Although US  has recently stretched this clause a little by sending reportedly humanitarian aid carrying war vessels through Bosphorus in a move which was generally interpreted as  a display of power following the Russian invasion of Georgian territory.

International shipping companies  complain of the domestic traffic between the two sides of Bosphorus and the local maritime company complains of not being able to extend sea transportation which has a significant weight in the transportation between the two sides of Istanbul.

Turkey was also convinced by the parties who use the straits to construct a radar network in order to facilitate passages which Turkey completed a while ago.  No matter what measures are taken, the physical features of especially Bosphorus make it a very dangerous place to navigate. There are very strong currents that change direction in a very complex pattern.

Most accidents happen due to mechanical problems. Some of them are caused by collisions.  A long time ago, we witnessed the results of a big accident that involved a huge Rumenian tanker which kept burning for weeks after the accident. The results of the accident was catastrophic for the environment.

I guess a very good step forward would be making it compulsory to take strait pilot during passage. This way accidents due to navigation errors can be minimized.

Maybe, we should all forget about this old reciprocity/retaliation mode of thinking. This is what splits people into camps. Don´t trust everything you read in newspapers. Sometimes whole nations are victimized for the want of circulation and publicity. I worked as a journalist for a couple of years, I know how news are cooked to get the desiredd effect on people. For long years, both in Turkey and in Europe, the man-in-the-street has been provided with a not-so-true picture of what is going on in these regions.

This has fueled the hatred between nations.

I would love a country for the loveable elements in it and not just because they love me back and vice versa.

A foreign person visiting this site for the love of our country or for any other reason cannot be expected or forced to share the grief of the loss of Turkish soldiers.  I can´t be expected to sympathize with the loss of American personnel in Iraq. Everyone shares the basic notion that it is a very bad experience to lose someone and if the closer that person to you, the bigger your grief gets.

Death is a reality of our lives. We are also bound to die someday. As the citizens of this country, we feel grieved when we lose soldiers in operations and this grief concerns only us. All the rest of the world, share little interest with us in regards of military matters. Therefore, they can hardly feel particularly sorry about our loss. It is not a good idea to share this grief with foreigners who have nothing to do with the conflict.

Should there be a relation, it is only on the international relations level and concerns politicians and statesmen and not necessarily ordinary citizens.

As a Turk who lost some members of his family to seperatist terror, I feel grieved about any life that is  lost to terror. This has been going on like this for more than 25 years with no signs of improvement.