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Forum Messages Posted by vineyards

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Thread: Early marriage to be focus of study

741.       vineyards
1954 posts
 23 Jun 2009 Tue 01:59 am

 Let´s discuss opinions not people.

Quoting girleegirl

 

 Don´t be silly LIR.....alameda-the-great just said it lacks crediblity.  That makes it true, doesn´t it?????

 

 

 



Thread: Early marriage to be focus of study

742.       vineyards
1954 posts
 21 Jun 2009 Sun 04:17 pm

 True, we should have been much more sensitive about our citizens especially about those in the Eastern provinces. However, there is a catch here which you yourself recently brought up unconsciously: they are unbelievably resistant to any attempt to change them. They hold on to their cultural life style regardless of where they are.  For many years, these people have been encouraged by powers that be who provided them finances and weapons. Truth be told, no one wants to live with these people as long as they remain the way they are. This includes you too. Many of those whom you criticized in one of your recent messages were Kurds. They get married at 12 usually a member of their extended families. Kurdish women are absolutely bereaved of any social rights. They usually fall victim to honor killings.

 

As is known, there is a feudal culture in the Eastern parts of Turkey where the population is composed mainly of Kurds. Feuds, tribal conflicts, religious bigotry are quite rampant there. In other words, there are two Turkeys in Turkey one that is conflict with the other. You also know there is a guerilla war  in the mountains of these regions. Those terrorists are targeting any attempt to extend or improve infrastructure in the region. This further complicates efforts to alleviate the problem. Teachers have usually been targeted. Only the bravest and the most self-sacrificing ones accept working in the terror affected regions without minding their lives. They have difficulty travelling back to their hometowns since the PKK occassionaly stops coaches making id check ups and executing any civil servants.

 

I can´t defend our governments have historically done their bests to solve the problems but this country has remained as the sick man of Europe for quite a long time suffering one of the biggest downfalls both politically and economically. Ataturk´s new republic have fought with what remained from a war struck population of economically and physically battered people. The nationalist sentiment that was instrumental in keeping Turks together around a new state inevitably irritated non-Turkish population.  Like many times in the past (during the Ottoman times) the friction effectively hampered economic recovery. Kurds rejected help from central government and resorted to terrorist acts. The central government has spent 1/3 of GNP on armament. This scheme served the best interes of arm producing countries who supplied both parties. The Kurdish party have generated resources by getting involved in mafia type organizations in Turkey and Iraq at the extent of which they began collaborating with other mafias established in Europe and Russia and began trafficking drugs and what they call white woman.  So much money flowed into the system caused corruption on both sides of the border (Iraq and Turkey).  The recent mass murder was a result of rangers (village guards)  getting involved in

matters not directly related to their official assignments. These are supposed to be friendly Kurds who would protect their villages in case of a terrorist attack. In actual fact, those are tribesmen who applied for village guard duty so that they are not slain by the rival tribe and vice versa.

 

The US government despite openly denouncing the act of PKK have not been able  prevent any of the attacks that the seperatist groups have been organizing against Turkey. I believe they could if they really wanted to. When John calls Bill he probably tells him not to disturb the established status quo in the region. This system is good for arm dealers and as everybody knows arm dealers don´t care about people their lives, their nations or their prosperity. All they care is money... One of the objectives of the America´s invasion of  Iraq was elimating the potential of having a powerful Iraq. Kurds have been chosen as the allies of the invaders who brought the region democracy and peace. In return, regardless of the statistical realities, they have been granted vast political representation in an Arabic country. Kurds have become the new owners of the country. All the valuable papers have been trusted to them which they took the freedom of modifying to their heart´s content. Arabic property became Kurdish.

 

This is what has been causing the 12 year olds getting married in Turkey.

 

 

"We need to have a higher participation in education. The campaigns for more girls in school are very effective. We need to have the local opinion leaders, teachers and religious officials informing the public about the risks of early marriage."

More

*********

Marrying at 12? Giving birth at 13? OMG!!!

 

 



Edited (6/21/2009) by vineyards



Thread: Early marriage to be focus of study

743.       vineyards
1954 posts
 19 Jun 2009 Fri 01:34 am

Sexual freedom being a hallmark of the Westen culture? That is probably only true for the last few decades and not more. Sexuality was not invented in the recent centuries. Instead, it existed since the first humans and the freedoms pertaining to it have been lived in different ways. There were periods marked by what we may call today as a complete freedom for sexual perversion of all kinds. Then again this is just a point of view valid only today. If you look into the history of the West, you´ll notice there is a deliberate aversion from sex. In some sects, monks are not allowed to get married and the mere thought of sex is considered a sin for a nun. Only a little while ago in the 50´s, marriages were a lot more old fashioned with thick lines for what women are supposed to do were very much in place. Inquisition courts and witch hunts are the historical proofs I could put forward.

 

The rise of individualism had its roots elsewhere and mainly in the East (see India). Sexual revolution in Scandinavia began along with the drug craze which again had its roots in Asia. It was a huge protest the like of which has never been seen in history. It being a protest was so obvious, the movement wanted to essentially change whatever there is in the West that restrains people´s lives comprehensively.

 

The Asian cultures have traditionally been a lot less reserved about sex. I find the Western notion of sex to be a lot more brutal and shallow which is manifested in the works of the porn indistry which I believe serves the needs of an average Western person. Everywhere female flesh is on display. Magazines and newspapers are full of news suggestive of sexuality in the meanest sense. Your media cannot get around its obsession with the likes of Paris Hilton.

 

When we travel back in time a couple of centuries, we end up with a complete change of values pertaining to sex. In Asiatic and Hellenic cultures homosexuality was regarded quite normal. There were whole periods praising homosexuality as a choice quite openly and without any shame or restraints. A Turkish ruler in India named Babur Shah writes about his love for a young male. He goes into such details as how he his face would be blushed and that he would  be tongue-tied when he saw his (male) lover. From what he wrote we know that most of his contemporaries had both wives and male lovers.

 

What you wrote could be true for these few decades but they lack depth and thus credibility.

 

Quoting Daydreamer

 

 

Of course only the insane are trully free, unless we argue that it´s their insanity that limits them. All others exist within material, social, intellectual or religious boundaries. We were not generalising here about there being absolute freedom in the world. What was at issue here was how personal freedoms are realised in the west, or to be more precise, the liberty of becoming sexually active.

 

The notion of moral basis is an obscure one, if we look at the middle east we see how the government´s or monarch´s morality is reflected in the society. The result is mostly unacceptable for a westerner, especially a female westerner. This leads me to believe that indeed, western society is freer, ie grants more individual freedom as far as personal decisions are concerned.

 

There´s a quote from M. Atwood´s Handmaid´s Tale

"There are two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from"

 

The society depicted by Atwood is a society free from rape, violence, poverty but at he same time it´s a terrifying place where women are not free to make their own decisions or live their life as they´d like.

 

 



Thread: Our baby daughter Melissa

744.       vineyards
1954 posts
 18 Jun 2009 Thu 09:22 pm

Congratulations. I wish you all the best. Mine has turned 10 months old. Days go by so fast!



Thread: Early marriage to be focus of study

745.       vineyards
1954 posts
 18 Jun 2009 Thu 06:53 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

Manning, welcome tot he site. I agree with everything you said about western culture being more about individualism and ability to make one´s choices. Even if sometimes people´s choices result in pregnancies, it still sounds better to me than being chosen a groom and forced to have sex with him. The peer pressure encouraging teens to have sex doesn´t make everyone have sex at the age of 12. Actually most of my friends lost their virginity in secondary school, so at about 17.

 

As for sex before marriage, everyone´s free to decide whether or not to have it. Why should I mind people who want to stay virgin until they get married? I´m perfectly ok with it. But I won´t have people telling me what to do. I´d never marry before having sex just because I don´t believe it´s something "sacred". My feeling is - if you are with someone you like and if you feel like doing it then why not? Yet, I´m still far from imposing my point of view on others. It´s like food - some people like kokoreç so let tem eat it, nobody will ever convince me that sheep´s intestines are tasty.

 

With the exception of the simplest and natural ones, free-choice exists only for the mighty and the rich.

Furthermore, being able to make choices does not automatically bring forth freedom for the masses. On the contrary, people of similar choices tend to stand together and restrict the choices of those who are in minority. Norms follow suit in such communities paving the path for more restrictions for marginals.

 

Your choices define who you are which in return effectively limits options available to you.A teenager girl condemns the government when she is denied entry to university because she wears hejab. In her neighborhood on the other hand, many a young girl in revealing clothes finds it difficult to walk by without being harassed or molested. Just like the personal freedoms of black or middle-eastern people are at stake when they are in the wrong neighborhood (and vice versa).

 

Consequently, unless there is a moral basis that governs the extent of freedoms, there is no freedom at all.



Edited (6/18/2009) by vineyards



Thread: Early marriage to be focus of study

746.       vineyards
1954 posts
 18 Jun 2009 Thu 12:08 am

 

Quoting AlphaF

I am so glad people here liked the term "Western Culture".  I had just made it it up ! )))))))))))))))))))

 

 I´d prefer Vulture Culture.



Thread: Turkish visitor to London - can you help?

747.       vineyards
1954 posts
 18 Jun 2009 Thu 12:05 am

Moderators, since when it´s been allowed to write such insolent comments about people?

Quoting Trudy

 

 

 Don´t talk about things you don´t know about! Stick to your links instead of making stupid remarks about a worldwide hospitality group you have never experienced!

 

 



Thread: A TRUE HEROIN

748.       vineyards
1954 posts
 16 Jun 2009 Tue 01:28 am

 Sherlock?

Quoting lady in red

 

 

 If you click on ´properties´ on Alpha´s link you can see that it is this picture he is referring to.

 

 



Thread: Predicting the crisis’ bottom: what men’s underwear can reveal

749.       vineyards
1954 posts
 16 Jun 2009 Tue 01:24 am

 That´s quite true. Actually, it applies to all sorts of clothes. After hearing a few negative comments like the one about how I am unable  to match a tie with a shirt, I left all garment shopping tasks to my wife.

 

There are certain people in the business life though and a few of them happen to be my friends. These guys are kind of greedy in money matters. They always choose their own garments and have a distinctive taste in  perfume brands, watches, ties, shirts, jackets and shoes. A number of them even die up their hair. They go on diets to appear fit.

 

After these explanations you´d probably guess how unlikely it is for Mr. Greenspan to monitor my shopping activities in order to come to a conclusion about the future of the economy.

 

Incidentally, in my opinion, the real causes behind this recent crisis is the unbelievably increased appetite for consumption. Driven by an unsatiable greed, this consumption craze has created a generation ready to take any risk to drive a fancy car and to live in a 300 square meter apartment.

 

The ending of the cold war era positioned the Capitalist economic model as the only alternative which is highly prosperous, infallible and right in its essence. The positive mood propelled the countries run by a capitalist system to new heights. It is very much like the Galatasaray of the early 2000´s.  No one gave them any chance against the likes of AC Milan or Real Madrid, Liverpool etc. but they made history when they won the UEFA and SUPER cups in the year 2000. This victory can be attributed to the overconfidence of the players and the supporters of the Galatasaray football team.

 

We still believe in the system but we are beginning to see the limits of it. We are facing the corruption element, the malicious capacity of speculators and ultimately how it is impossible to create happiness over the sufferings of masses (e.g. China). Maybe someday, people will recognize that the value of seemingly petty occupations (for example in this country teaching is scorned a bit but salesmanship is praised) are far greater indeed.

 

I like the Scandinavian attitude about vocations. You can be a garbage collector but this doesn´t mean you have a lesser job. You can coach a football team, get tennis lessons, play flute at a bar at the weekends and feel proud of your contribution to society. Of course, for this to be possible, you need to be a well paid garbage collector. The rest of the world meanwhile are chasing China type opportunities where resources can be drained as quickly and efficiently as possible without minding what the consequences would be.  There must still be a way out somewhere... 

 

  

Quoting lady in red

 

 

Don´t know about in Turkey but I´m pretty sure in the UK that as far as the married men go, in the majority of cases it´s their wives that buy their underpants for them - along with most of their clothes - so it´s the Turkish wives you should ask!  My God - can you imagine if we let them go out dressed in clothes they had chosen themselves!!!   lol lol lol

 

(....to be fair this is probably not true of my sons´  generation - bit more interest in clothes there!!) 

 

 



Edited (6/16/2009) by vineyards
Edited (6/16/2009) by vineyards



Thread: Ýstanbul meets the Black Sea Aðva and Þile

750.       vineyards
1954 posts
 15 Jun 2009 Mon 10:28 am

 Thanks for the help, I didn´t know either of these words and was trying to describe the phenomenon in odd vocabulary

Quoting alameda

 

  it´s called undertow here.  

It´s also called a Riptide...

here is some advice how to survive them.

 

 

 



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