Dealing with a mother-in-law could be difficult and sometimes too difficult to endure, and it all depends on how your fiance responds to the problem. Although it is naturally difficult for him to turn his back to his mother and to favour you in all these matters; he is the one who needs to make a decision. If he wants to build a common future with you, he must be able to say no to her mother who as far as I understand can become quite insolent and unbearable.

Technically it is impossible for someone not to be under the influence of a dominant mother like his. He will have some elements of her character and of her psychology. It is a matter of being able to manage these feelings. You may expect problems in your marriage in the future; it is just a matter of how much you are willing to tolerate and how ready he is to adapt to your joint life.

Turkish traditions can be a bit difficult to accept for foreigners and it is usually vice versa.

Calls to mind:

Dudakların nasıl ürkek

Ne kadar uzakta sesin

Sen gece gelen konuğu

Hiç kimsenin ve herkesin

How timid your lips are

Your voice comes from afar

You are the nocturnal guest

of us all yet of none of us

Yagmur Atsiz.

Konuk is a Turkish word I think deriving from konmak which in contemporary Turkish means to perch. It appears in various phrases like:

Başına talih kuşu kondu.

Büyük bir servete kondu. (meaning that fortune came suddenly and by chance like from lottery).

Konuk and misafir are the same. Konuk is a newer word and is considered more formal. If you are giving a speech to an audience in a formal setting, you would call them "Sayın/sevgili konuklarımız." It is not wrong to call them misafirlerimiz. It depends on your cultural alignment.

Kurds, Turks, Azeris whatever, it is not wrong to belong one of them. It is wrong to say a certain race is evil and that people we hate are doing the things that make us angry because they are Kurds, Turks etc. That´s why many of the posts here smell of chauvinism and racism.

History recorded Yavuz as a violent person who murdered his own father chased his vizirs with a sword in his hand. He must certainly have had an anger management problem but unfortunately there were no shrinks in his day; for that he would have to wait until the 19th century. 

As it turns out Sheik Ismail was a direct opposite of Yavuz Selim. He was a man of letters, a poet, a proto-humanist who is still a role model for post modern humanists. However, a typical mistake would be disregarding the time frame and considering all the leaders as if they are contemporaries.

Yavuz was not a racist. He thought he was the sword of God and he also though he was the Khaliph and that he was acting according to God´s will. In other words, by today´s standards he was an über megaloman. He killed his own kinsmen, citizens and friends and planted the seeds of ethnic hatred in this country.

Erdogan certainly likes him and will give his name to the third bridge over Bosphorus because he has a similar character. Nevertheless, Erdogan does not lead an empire with mighty armies. He is playing in a setting where a leader must be aware of his limitations.  

Here I tried to translate a few lines from Sheik Ismail

Truth is a deep mystery

You can not crack it open

There is faith in blasphemy

Yet it is beyond all reason

I am Hata-i the Sheik

of the land of misty mountains

Here are the Bible and the Quran

and there is not a single difference

Sheik Ismail.

and this one is from Yavuz Selim

By what magic did she turn my eyes all red

she filled up my heart with her love

lions do tremble by the fear of my terror

yet her eyes turned me into a slave of her love 

Yavuz Selim

(These are just quick translations)

He is trying to say Obama is playing the Mevlevi card. Can you believe that? 

You should thank West for tokenizing moderate Islam.

Thanks but you are exagerating. It is just a quick and dirty translation.

It is a bit weird to call the West as Christians. Christ himself was a peaceful man. He has no relation with the current day Christians who have nothing to do with the original teachings of that great dude. For example, he strictly forbade usury but todays´ West runs on usury and by the consent of the church. 

Islam´s prophet on the other hand was a warrior prophet. He acted as an army general, statesman etc. We have to remember this point. We can claim crusades were against the spirit of Christianity but can we say that Jihad actually contradicts with it?

I would like to say, the religion context here is dubious. Christ did not want his followers to organize crusades. Christians can´t attribute their warlike nature to the teachings of their religion. However, Muslims can.

We should say this is a cultural thing... and nothing more.

Some students believe, at the state of chemical equlibrium, there is no dissolution and sedimentation hence they think when the solid matter reaches equilibrium, no more AgCl(k) dissolves in the solution and no precipitation is formed as seen in fig 1. Students who think this way capture this idea from textbook pictures that depict the state of equilibrium as an end where everything comes to a standstill.  Another reason is that some students liken this phenomenon to equations they observe in daily life e.g. like a see-saw or the arms of a scale. They conclude that when both sides are in a balance there is an equality therefore an equilibrium. Well, does that apply to solutions when a solvent is in equilibrium with the solid matter. Does that mean everything has come to a halt at the state of equilibrium? In fact, both dissolution and precipitation continues at the state of equilibrium in saturated solutions (we can´t talk about an equilibrium in the case of unsaturated solutions).

Fig 1 shows that AgCl(k) continues to dissolve at the state of equilibrium hence the formation of Ag+ and Cl- ions. Meanwhile, Ag+ and Cl- ions bind together forming AgCl(k) solid. The state of equilibrium is reached when dissolution and settling speeds are equal. In other words, at the state of equilibrium some solid matter keeps dissolving while some solid matter settles. When the speeds of these two phonemena are equal there is EQUILIBRIUM. Here is an example, you have probably seen the moving walkways at the entrance of Ankaray (Ankara Intercity Terminal Administration). Walkways on either side are used by incoming and leaving passengers. When the travel speed of incoming and leaving passengers on these walkways are equal no increase is observed in the number of passengers. In other words, some leave and some join continually. As a result, we can say that nothing stops at the state of chemical equilibrium and that both dissolution and settling continue.

Let´s take a look at what´s going on in Iraq and Syria.

Kurds: They rose to power and have become the de facto administrators of the vast regions of these two countries. They have armies trained by the West and they use American weapons. On paper America is an ally of Turkey via NATO. Yet, they backed the formation of Kurdistan which has long been a major threat for Turkey. Turkey has been fighting with the Kurdish seperatists for ages and all her allies know the country´s concerns and policies.

ISIS: We are talking about a major military power with unprecedented fire power and organization. This organization runs on tremendous amounts of money coming from all sorts of illegal channels and trades. The question is who created ISIS? Whose pawn are they? 

Turkey: Turkey has a long border with both countries and it directly suffers the consequences of the war. Turkey has so far accepted the largest number of refugees. She even let them travel around the country or find jobs where some Western governments were reluctantly offering to accept 800 or so of them.

America: America belongs here because they consider themselves as the world police. They have a right to invade, divide, partition sovereign nations just because they can do that. Let us not talk about moral values here. It is just a power game that takes place just because America wants a large chunk from the wealths of smaller nations.

One day, this will change there will be a new super power. Maybe China or God knows who. When that happens American people will remember the old days just like many Turks remember the Ottoman Empire. In this world, there is no lasting alliance or friendship.

You are welcome. Good luck with your studies.

Turkish is an agglutinative language and this is a mind-boggling point for many learners. You have to get used to forming your sentences with suffixes instead of words and prepositions. Even after years of learning, foreigners tend to make mistakes. I think both because it is a bit difficult to master and because the listener usually figures what the speaker means or wants to say anyway.

A typical native speaker doesn´t know the difference between -na and -ya but he/she can always pick the right one. Perhaps learning by exposure is a better method than trying to master the morphological rules.  Nonetheless, as a hint

I would say, if the attributive noun in a compound noun is genitive it needs -na, -ne etc in its accusative form. If not -ye, ya etc are used. Some proper nouns are obtained from such compound nouns and they follow the same underlying morphological rules:

For example:

Example 1: Demir kapıya 

Example 2: Kuşadası´na. (Kuş adası is based on a noun compliment)

I admit Turks can bit agressive at times. As a matter of fact, they go to the extremes in both directions:enemity and friendliness. 

Thehandsom you are not aware of what you are saying most of the time. Calling your countrysmen racists is not a way of initiating a friendly discussion. You are a flavour in this soup. No you are not the Turk or the mastermind who would judge others. 

People should ask themselves how good they are as say a chess player. The wise words they inadvertantly say would have the effect of a critical move in a chess game. Is it the right move or will it be a faux pas. You had better think twice before making those provocative claims.

You know people may love other people or they may hate them. There are no iron-clad rules. I have listened to many educated German citizens who wanted to send the Turks in their country back home despite all those years and acquired rights of citizenship. They thought a guest population (as they label them again despite tens of years) had to assimilate themselves and live like Germans in the land of Germans. This doesn´t happen because the German government is not officially asking the Turks to leave.

As you see, what matters here is how a government handles this. Everyone must have basic human rights. They are entitled to speaking their native languages and living in their mother land. Kurds are not an exception. The Turkish government is not asking anyone to leave the country either although there is enmity between the Turks and Kurds in general.

Today there is a bloody game being played by the powers that be. They use the Kurds in Iraq and Syria to eliminate the local Arabic governments. Considerable amounts of property and money are said to have been forcefully acquired by these people and it seems they are free to do this just because the US is backing them in line with their shared interests in the region.

Countries like Turkey, Iran are ancient ones. They are matured civilizations. They don´t need anyone to teach them anything. They will have to settle their own problems. One of these countries is playing the religion card to maintain its unity and power and to withstand the erosion caused by the West. Turkey has traditionally been a patriotic country and this is especially so for the last two centuries. A few Arabic countries played this card too but they were overcome by the US. One must be blind not to see that. The  US has a problem with patriotic countries and they are installing their Patriot missile system to protect non-patriotic (moderate Islam) countries.

We had a member named Daydreamer, there must be a reason why I remembered her name. 

The true nature of nations is not like the way you perceive them. Eve the most advanced nations in the world are pretty selfish when it comes to their own interests and they would not hesitate to resort to power if they want to make a point. They use mighty weapons and brutal methods to make sure who the boss is. They use your holy book as toilet paper. They know how to intimidate you or to fill your mind with utopic democracy games whereas the name of their game is xenophobia. Don´t tell me what is being staged today has something to do with the Kurds and their rights or with the terrorist acts that have claimed the lives of thousands of peopöe

Nationalism, patriotism and racism are all perceived differently depending on one´s point of view. For example if you are a lefty you can take the freedom of grouping these concepts and using them to make your word salad appear richer. How can you lose an argument if anyone who disagrees is automatically a racist?

If you are a conservative and if you are adressing to a group of so called leftists, you will group red, communist, socialist, anarchist and infidel together. You don´t have to bother about the differences among those.

Today the biggest patriotic nation in the world is the USA followed by England, France and Germany. They are against all this word salad and they have no interest in wasting their time with name calling. Instead they safeguard their national interests brutally.

Yes, but as mentioned in my message there is still an ongoing fight. Moderate Islam is still being exported and patriotic elements are still being targeted. Who is doing this and for what? We have a name for the misdeed on one end: nationalism or patriotism. What about the other end? A nation gives reaction in great numbers and in great vigour and this only happens when it is jeopardized.

I support AlphaF´s approach. 

The West has trasitionally supported what they call as moderate Islam and it ferociously attacks any nationalist movement. Saddam, Qaddafi, Essad all thought about the national interests of their countries and were/have been being eradicated by the same nonpatriotic power.

Don´t buy arguments by looking at how they are packed. Patriotism can sometimes be a social defense mechanism a cement holding the entire structure to give it a chance to evolve into more advanced stages.

Remember Rome was not built in one day.

The problem with the purported revolution is the same as the criticism traditionally made about Ataturk´s reforms: prescriptive.

When Ataturk prescribed those changes he was addressing an impoverished people who had not been allowed to choose. Their literacy rate stood at a fraction of what it is today. They had paid a great price for their ignorance and illeteracy hence waiting aimlessly for someone or some institution to give them a new direction. These were the people who would chant: Long live Sultan in the streets. Ataturk had to fill this gap or else his own people would tear him into pieces. He had the power to make his reform thanks to his heroic efforts during the war and his people knew this very well.

Furthermore, literature in his age was a mix of didactic and romantic and the philosophy and religion were a lot more prescriptive. The Japenese were considering their King a God and the Germans were preparing to declare themselves as the ubermensch. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin would turn the world in a blood bath. Every other little or big ruler of the day would adopt this prescriptive approach and some would commit serious crimes. Ataturk did none of this. He just tried to stimulate his people by abandoning superstitions.

Funny thing is that they are trying to reverse engineer Ataturk in a modern world and the method they use is prescriptive just like thehandsom´s. i.e. justice and development (it only happens when you close your eyes to the real world)

The problem with the purported revolution is the same as the criticism traditionally made about Ataturk´s reforms: prescriptive.

When Ataturk prescribed those changes he was addressing an impoverished people who had not been allowed to choose. Their literacy rate stood at a fraction of what it is today. They had paid a great price for their ignorance and illeteracy hence waiting aimlessly for someone or some institution to give them a new direction. These were the people who would chant: Long live Sultan in the streets. Ataturk had to fill this gap or else his own people would tear him into pieces. He had the power to make his reform thanks to his heroic efforts during the war and his people knew this very well.

Furthermore, literature in his age was a mix of didactic and romantic and the philosophy and religion were a lot more prescriptive. The Japenese were considering their King a God and the Germans were preparing to declare themselves as the ubermensch. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin would turn the world in a blood bath. Every other little or big ruler of the day would adopt this prescriptive approach and some would commit serious crimes. Ataturk did none of this. He just tried to stimulate his people by abandoning superstitions.

Funny thing is that they are trying to reverse engineer Ataturk in a modern world and the method they use is prescriptive just like thehandsom´s. i.e. justice and development (it only happens when you close your eyes to the real world)

There is nothing wrong with the anthem, nor is there anything wrong with the oaths. I would say this is some sort of blindness or a lapse of reason. It is like refusing to walk on a Belgian pavement since it reminds you of the WWI.

This form of light hearted social democratic demeanour is rather typical for those fighting with their own shadows. As Shakespeare put it: "Much Ado About Nothing."

These people -after having read so many books- still fail to perceive real life. They are pointing out at a theorotical world where people are like beads on an abacus. Black is black, white is white; left is left and right is right. Here is a Turkish word you might need in this connection: basmakalip. (cliche or formulaic) and this is how they are. 

So, if you don´t want to offend them, don´t recite those oaths and don´t defend them or you will be labeled.

In fact, it is so easy to manipulate them: just bring out a couple of newspapers with a fake intellectual outlook. Attack a few symbols they hate. Voila, you have an army of comrades who will gladly help destroy your system until it becomes completely defenseless. German social democrats did this favour to the Nazis, why wouldn´t ours?

1930´s was a Jacobean period for Turkey led by a Jacobean leader who has been hailed all around the world as a great leader and a hero in his own country.

Even his enemies gave him full credit for his achievements. Some of his enemies for example, Churchill was not a lesser racist than some of the fallen heroes of the day. He is famously known as not regarding Turks proper human beings. Even Churchill sang praises of Ataturk upon witnessing the transformation he achieved in his country.

Criticizing Atatürk for his patriotism is like expecting Socrates to write his comments on a football match played yesterday. A shallow perspective leads you to this anachronism. The general public remembers Victor Hugo as a humanist but he is also responsible for what we call today post-colonial racism. Every knows the true merit of Hugo, we can´t understand Hugo without remembering the time frame.

By the way, I am not a fan of these oaths and the stuff. I believe they belong to a people who emerged victorious from an all-consuming independence war. They were left alone with depleted resources and an untellable kind of poverty and destitude and laid the foundation of modern Turkey. 

We are where we are today thanks to their selfless and relentless efforts to defend their motherland. They are our forefathers. They were the unlucky ones who fought a series of bloody wars that were inflicted on them due to an unskilfull management that left the country to the mercy of greedy foreign invaders.

True these oaths smell passion, determination and maybe there is something bad about them but... one must understand the time-frame, the feelings of those who wrote them.

When I hear them today, I remember that determination which has persisted over time and came down through generations to remind us of our bloody and miserable past. Straightforward reasoning doesn´t work here. Here is a good example, everybody hails the Renaissance as the period of enlightening but no one remembers how much blood was shed to make it possible. Straightforward reasoning declares Renaissance like a feast of salvation from barbarism, the truth is it was just a new chapter in the history of mankind marked with brutality and oppression that gradually reached such a high level that it caused a series of immense social breakdowns giving way to the destruction of a number of established institutes which resulted in a shift in the way governments and society perceive themselves.

Future is not safe unless we remember the calamities of the past.Yet, it may be unnecessary to teach those oaths to small children who can´t understand their true context. They learn about sexuality elsewhere. Israeli government instills military awareness into the minds of young generation. Those oaths are not a big blow to democracy as democracy is still a fancy name elsewhere in our world.

See below

This war was fought by these two sides: crusaders comprising Serbs, Hungarians, Germans (and other European nations of the day) whose main target was to clean the Balkans from Turks who did not even call themselves an army of Turks but an army of Allah and remember the former called themselves "the Crusaders" i.e another army of God....

In other words, this was a political and religious war rather than a nationalist one. Janisaries who took up important missions in this war were mostly converted Christians. Turkish army was bearing the flag of Islam.

Now what do you mean by racism? A great deal of Ottoman Pashas were European, some were even Christian. Ottomans supported the millet system which gave minorities control over their own internal affairs. What they hated was küfür, they called their European enemies küffar meaning infidels and in return Europeans called them infidels.

I think I would not think about learning a language just because it sounds good otherwise I would want to learn Russian, French, Irish (at least the way they speak English). I just like listening to them. Meanwhile, American English which happens to be the accent closest to the way I speak sounds horrible to many ears. (sorry for this remark)

As a person traveling around Turkey giving engineering service to a number of so-called giant industrial facilities, you can have my word for it - it might be a perfectly innocent accident. I was electrocuted, fell from scaffoldings and hurt myself on countless occassions just because some Mr. Mehmet had not done his job properly.

We are the champions of procrastination. You can´t get anything done properly in this country and you must also forget about getting it done in time. That roof might have caught fire just because the whole organization behind it did not care even a bit about the historical value of the building from the very beginning.

interactions, one could consider this a window into the Turkish culture. More than often, the person looking from this window is someone who doesn´t speak Turkish at all. We can´t ask that person to provide a Turkish summary.

Ultimately, the persons who launched this site were not completely thoughtless. They thought about these and many other things before investing their time, energy and money in this web site.

For example, the site owners can owner and decide to change the site language to Arabic. It is all up to them, it is their site.

tunci there is no such requirement. We will post in line with the rules determined by the admins. We can´t force our own rules. 

Repeated violations will have consequences as laid out in the site rules. Let us avoid dead ends as much as we can.

When you post in Turkish, please don´t forget to provide an English language summary.

It seems as if we offended Nixie somehow and not the other way around but I don´t understand what went wrong.

There are three general groups of Turkish Class users:

1- Those having a Turkish date.

2- Those using mostly the political discussion forum

3- Those wishing to learn Turkish only.

I belong to group two that´s why I jumped into this discussion.

I incorrectly indicated Sweden´s population as 12 million. It must be 9.5 million.

You did not offend me even a bit. I don´t know why you thought like that.

In the end, we all indicate our opinions that´s all. I may not even be right. It is always nice to hear other people´s opinions.

A quick google search indicates there are 100k Turks living in Sweden and 10k Swedes living in Turkey. Turkey´s 2012 population is over 80 million and Sweden´s is 12 million.

As you see everything is relative, "many" in the Swedish context is "few" in the Turkish one. Sweden has never been a favourite destination for Turks. (Just remember the 3 million Turks in Germany).

Many Turks emigrated to Sweden were of Kurdish origin or leftist political asylum seekers. They left the country either using this point as pretext or since some of them were the victims of brutalities. The main reason here is not cultural but political. Sweden was run by governments that would support people with a certain political view.

-Turkey is a country of 75 million people.

-Income is not equally distributed in Turkey.

-For some people, leaving the country is a way out.

-Waiters especially those serving tourists and the high income group get lured to their richer lives.

-Waiters are chosen for their looks and for their cleanliness.

-Many foreign girls find them attractive.

-Some of those women complain of little interest in them in their homelands.

-A fool´s paradise is instantly set up based on these principles: a poor handsome guy and a rich girl (rich here is relative).

-The great distance between the "lovers" turn this into a virtual "courtly love".

-The handsome waiter who had already undergone a cultural shock when he came to the big city in Turkey would like to intensify the experience by moving to a rich foreign city.

-His motives are often material.

-He rarely considers this a true romance.

-He rarely puts his heart into the marriage that may follow this.

-He may have a true lover back home and the whole thing may have been arranged with a certain time table.

-In many cases, they are not very different from prostitutes: voluntary sex workers.

-Many a Turk would never want to live in a country like Sweden or Finland: too cold, too dull and too diplomatic to their taste.

-I don´t think Turks and Swedes are culturally compatible with each other either.

-A strong catalyst is often needed: good looks, physical fondness, love or money. (Although this is kind of true for all relations.)

Of course, any discussion involving opposing sides must be based on impartiality rather than fanatism. I could sing praises of the West for hours. We all owe a great deal for the eminent scientists, philosophers and men of letters the West contributed to humanity. I have learned a lot from them and many of them are my personal heroes.

Let us remember Yin and Yang the famous Chinese symbol that represents the unity of opposing poles and the constant transformation between them. The situation between the West and the East is very much like that. The East and the West are actually the same thing, they are one. They mutually influence each other.

I love the West. I can´t imagine a world without them. If it weren´t for the perpetual competition between these two, we could never get to the point where we are now. We must both be against hatred. What I am trying to do is to criticize the obvious misdeeds of both parties.

In case our starting point is the age of a country, we must remember Turkey is a much older country compared to the US. However, we must also note that the US shares the sociocultural wealth of the European continent. That also means the US and Europe have been in the same bandwagon since the beginning. Therefore, to understand the evolution of the regime in the US, we must study the near history of Europe.

Over the decades, many regimes were tested in Europe. From the Holy State Model of the medieval times to the fascist regime of Franco in Spain or the National Socialism of the Hitler era along with communism and social democracy they flourished and failed on the European soil. Its this diversity and openness for a change that made the creation of the US possible. The US was a new ideal invested in a land with vast opportunities that could support a new system.

How did Europe get to that point? All this relentless change and striving for a better and more efficient formation was not without a reason. Europe was threatened by Turkey. Turkey had better armies and a stronger economy then. The entire Sea of Mediterranean was controlled by the Ottoman fleet. Traditional trade routes were also controlled by the Turks. Europe had to do something to get rid of the Turks and they discovered America while trying to find a new way to reach India. Colonism, slavery, exploitation of the resources of the new-found-land gave Europe and edge over their archrivals. They had more money, larger armies (reinforced by their colonies). The efforts they made to reach, control and govern these new lands caused them to excel in creating new technologies. (larger distances created a need for steam vehicles, better built vessels etc.).

To put it in a nutshell, whoever has the power has the last word about what democracy is and the West is doing exactly that. If Turkey emerged victorious from this long battle we would be talking about a different kind of social structure hence democracy.

As for Americans having golden hearts. I have no objections since I have nothing against the man in the street. Nevertheless, if we should more correctly judge nations by their political decisions we must say, a country that resorted to mass-destruction weapons twice in its near history indiscriminately murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians including babies, mothers and children can hardly be called a good one. Whoever did and whoever endorsed that were war criminals, and they certainly deserve to go to hell.

From the political point of view, Turkey is not a stable country. No matter who wins the elections and regardless of the percentage, a sizeable portion of the population detest the resulting government and do their best to undermine it and it is often vice versa.

Being inflicted with such problems, it can´t be said Turkey pleases majority of its citizens let alone provide democracy for them. As you say, there is always room for further development and that is very much the case for Turkey too.

Furthermore, Turkey is at the cross-roads of civilizations. It is neither completely East nor is it West. That means Turks have a slightly different concept of democracy while being quite familiar with the notions of their Eastern and Western neighbors. What is democratic for a Turk may not be that way for a foreigner. Just like a nun may think she is liberated by devoting herself to God. Democracy is a belief. It may come in different shapes. You may like the system in America but we all know that there are countless people all around the world who consider it an evil empire.

Think of the football clubs and their fancy signings, large budgets and coaches with their magical plans for reaching the next league title: what looks good on paper is rarely good enough to actually get success in real life. We can project this onto how society is ruled by parties and how systems or regimes rarely live up to the expectations of the masses.

Leonard Cohen, a singer-philosopher puts it this way:

quote

Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It´s coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.

unquote

Perhaps there is a seed of truth in this. Unless, democracy comes to a mighty countrly like the US first, there is little chance for the others to move a finger to change their regimes. One way to achieve this is to question our understanding of democracy and this has to be done on a very large scale and meticulously.

The moment when we realize there is no secularism nor democracy in the true sense of the word, we will have a chance to aspire a better regime that at least makes more justice to the word: democracy.

One of the problems of the "civilized" part of the world today is the wide-spreaded procrastination stemming from their incorrectly considering themselves as the "norm" and the unnecessary satisfaction with a so-called efficient society that relies on the inefficiencies of others. This is about to change.

In a world climate where people talk about a clash of civilizations, we can´t talk about the existence of religious peace in any country in the world. That also means not much has changed over the decades and that things are even getting worse compared to the past.

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories but here is my understanding of what lies in the background of the incidents in Ankara:

The powers-that-be consider Turkey as a considerable military power in the region. Despite all its pro-West attitude, Turkey is considered a bit volatile and unpredictable. The country supports a large population having extremely diversified ethnic backgrounds. Turkey is a unitarian country and has a militarist outlook. No matter what political flavour its young generation choose, a large percentage of them are still very patriotic people.

Turks have certain icons and they defend them ardently. These icons can be considered as a bond that holds the masses together and they are the ones found in established countries like France, Italy, Spain etc. While it is OK for the aforementioned countries have these bonds (since they are Christian and Western) it is not OK to have such a strong unitarian regime in a region where powers-that-be would like to hold the reins by stirring trouble as they did in Iraq, Syria and Libya.

If a political group can be installed in the community using an element (religion) that is not alien to the natural texture of the community, and if they are given enough power they can serve the common targets and do their best to undermine the established obstacles to terminate the unwanted regime and to replace it with a softer, calmer and less resistant one.

Once this step is achieved, more daring plans can eventually be tried.

Matter all around us routinely reaches the speed of light. This happens when a particle is sufficiently energized to release energy in the form of photons.

Remarkably, religion is a respectable way of wasting one´s and inevitably others people´s valuable time.

Come up with any valid argument that religion has a word or two to say about and you are contested, protested and instantly detested. 

Any dialogue that involves God is doomed for failure unless the parties share the same belief.

We humans have excellent mental capabilities thanks to our small but efficient brains. The brain has evolved over the millenias but its ultimate purpose has remained the same: to control our ancient bodies. The brain has also evolved in order to answer the gradual changes in man´s life and developed cognitive capabilities to ensure its protection and continuation.

The brain, despite all its complexity is merely a closed-circuit thinking machine. It cannot derive any conclusions unless those conclusions already exist as tangible concepts in its registry. The brain is also not very comfortable with facing its own limitations. There must always be a canned thought, a belief or a symbol to fill in for the missing parts in the said registry.

The brain tends to reject the idea of total-destruction. This self-driven thinking machine, does its magic by producing aliases to avoid dead-ends. Those dead-ends are the triggers of primeval fears. To suppress them we need a substitute the presence of which bridges the unknown with the known. This way the brain protects itself from unproductive vicious circles.

Must refers to a legal or personal requirement. It either means the speaker thinks you have the obligation or that there is a legal requirement. If you exceed the speed limit you must pay a fine because that is a legal requirement.

Someone might think, you must act more responsibly after evaluating your actions. She thinks you acted irresponsibly therefore according to her own judgement, she might invite you to be more responsible by using "must" in her sentence. Let´s put aside the "probability" aspect of must and switch to "have to".

We use "have to" to talk about third party requirements. Consider this sentence:

We have to show up very early tomorrow, the boss will be waiting for us.

In this sentence, have to refers to a requirement placed by a third party.

This makes sense only when you don´t take into account the fact that 10 years ago they were alredy in the 300´s and dropped from the list thanks to the mastery of our government.

They barely qualify for the first 500 now and this is great news for our independent media.

This is yet another proof that deceit has entered all spheres of our lives.

Double-think,

Double-talk,

and serve time in the jail

if you commit the thought-crime

I have suspended a message by a member on account that it contains vulgar statements, unsubstantiated accusations and personal attack directed at another member.

This is not a place where you can display your personal conflicts in your private affairs. Use e-mails or PM´s for that purpose.

It is a book written by Washington Irwing and it depicts the life of early Dutch settlers in New York. The chief character is Rip and his wife is Dame Van Winkle. Dame Van Winkle is an angry woman and Rip is a henpecked man. When I read it, I laughed a lot. Suggested but the language might be a bit old fashioned.

OK I´ve learned my lesson today. Somehow, it felt like reading Rip Van Winkle for a moment 

To put it in a nutshell:

-I may have underestimated Holland but what about the other smaller countries like Belgium, Switzerland etc? Aren´t they regarded as one of Europe? Can´t a great deal of their economic success be attributed to their being members of the family?

-Returning to Holland and Turkey, in any tug of war between nations or regions, one has to take into account several parameters, I admit GDP is one of them. Still, there are also other significant parameters such as population, economic depth, foreign trade, gold and foreign exchange reserves and ultimately military power.

-Your GDP example is meaningful for countries experiencing an apex status in their economic performances. If one country´s economy performs in close range to theoratical maximum and if nearly all that performance is registered using the legal avenues, then we can conclude that country has reached its practical maximum and we can barely talkabout a substantial potential for further growth. Holland with its limited land, a well-established tax system and welfare society is one such example.

Turkey on the other hand gets reflected in key economic parameters perhaps as one thirds of what it actually is. Tax dodging is rampant in Turkey, joblesness is artificially higher because of abuses in legal statements. Turkey´s current GDP is actually still a bit higher than that of Holland. In reality, however, if all the trade activity could be truthfully indicated, it could (as many say) would increase substantially. What is more Turkey resembles a fast train with all its economic dynamism, it is in the process of reaching its apex. When this is done, it will be a very formidable economic power in Europe. I may not live to see that but the way it looks, it will certainly happen in the near future.

Add to that the fact that, at the end of the day what really counts is purchasing power. In Turkey, we have always been able to buy our friends dinners and lunches whenever we wished and in Holland are you still doing it by Dutch treat? What do you think about your grossly expensive lives? Why is even water so expensive in your country, do you realize this situation creates an artificial aura of welfare which doesn´t translate into practical benefit. In fact, the only reason why Turkey is expensive in certain items such as energy and say automotive is the government´s desire to balance budget deficit. This forces us to drive lesser cars and do fewer miles on account of sky-rocketing prices.

Barba, refering to your last paragraph, in what context are you making these statements? History tells us there is a table in the middle and Europe is on one side and Turkey is on the other. (Turkey as the leader of the ME).

Do you realize, if it weren´t for an almost tangible union in Europe (not necessarily the EU),for example the Netherlands would hold no significance in terms of East-West relations at all with its tiny population and smallish economy. All European countries act in perfect unity regarding matters outside Europe. There are occasional problems that concern Europe only but those are completely outside the context here.

We could even say, if it weren´t for the European tradition and its intrinsic balances and dynamics, countries like Holland would not even exist and would have long been seized by Russia.

Contrary to what you say, Europe has a unity although it is made up of smaller elements. Everyone regards them like that and they regard everyone like that.

As for us, despite all our convergence and millenia long interaction that includes a massive mix up of bloods, we are still seen a non-European element. Everybody knows what is what, the rest is just void talk and hypocracy.

Catwoman, I am just refering to a huge paradox here. This paradox stems from the proto-culture the entire European civilization embraces as the true basis of their culture: the Hellenic civilization. Rennaisance and Reformation movements set the clock back to the Hellenic times regarding it a new inspiration for its new democratic foundation. This new movement prioritized reason over faith and opened up new avenues for science to flourish as a result of a series catalysts that caused a chain reaction. We can confidently call this a step forward for humanity but unfortunately, we often disregard one obvious flaw of it: the European world just like the Hellenic one did before, closed their doors to other cultures and collectively defied them often satanizing, belittling and fearing them. In other words, it is a closed community with a xenophobic outlook.

Remember Narcissus who falls in love with her own reflection in water, Europe is in an endless love with itself. Amid all this boasting, it hides a monster that occasionally rears its ugly face. We don´t observe it in the political statements but racism still lingers on very strongly, in the streets, stadiums, rituals and possibly in the privacy of family life.

I´d expressly attest, racism of the kind found in Europe does not exist in my country. People don´t throw bananas to black players and they don´t discriminate people according to their skin colors. This is often done openly and blatantly in the US and usually in a hypocratical manner in Europe and manifests itself with all its kaboom fired by the group psychology present in the stadiums of Europe.

Women must do something about these beauty contests and the similar classification stuff.

We do not organize painting or sculpture contests because we attribute some value to the artistry behind them. Human beauty must be regarded similarly. In the end, appreciation of beauty is a highly subjective matter. 

For example, I find Bar Rafaeli quite attractive as a woman but I don´t like the way her eyes communicate; I think I don´t find her genuine. That means, I wouldn´t fall for her at first sight if I were young enough since I am quite allergic to coquetish behaviour. Still, she has the beauty icon status in the eyes of almost a whole young generation. In short, the phrase "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" makes a lot of sense.

Let me put it this way: there are just too many racists in disguise in the real world. The real world here refers to the true nature of the world. By this definition, I would say Europe -a place regarded by most as the center of civilization - is not as civilized as it appears to be.

The Alan Parsons Project have a song called The Real World. Somehow, your comments reminded me of that song, it goes like this and it applies to everything that happens in the real world: " So many times we stand and fight So many reasons can´t be right One more simple truth I´m not denying Too many lonely nights in the real world Too many fools who don´t think twice Too many ways to pay the price Don´t wanna live my life in the real world " Welcome to the real world, I keep saying, the words democracy, equality, fraternity and tolerance only exist in the dictionary and they have no place in the real world. People keep believing in Europe, Holland, Turkey, Italy and God knows what. (Even God here is a "void" symbol).

Barba, there are certainly somethings going on in the world and you know whom to hold responsible for them. In one occasion you asked me to remember that Israel and the Jewry are not synonymous and I accepted that despite I feel what you are saying is only technically correct.

I have enormous respect for the Jews for the wonderful things they have done but I also protest them for the evil things committed in their name and the body that represent them happens to be the Israeli government.

I have nothing against you. You have my love and my respect as a person but I do listen to speeches made by the Israeli government and I find them overly patriotic if not racist at times.

Check out the seed, GDO and Israel link, all the Internet is at your disposal. If you learn about the game Israel plays in this, I expect you to condemn it as much as I do.

I am not seeking to flame you. If you wish we could carry this to the PM´s and stop being offtopic.

What can be said to someone who enjoys his chicken meat or pork? If you like it and if it is OK for you  then just eat it. I don´t eat lamb or pork nor do I eat say rabbit meat. I enjoy eating the kind of food my mother cooked me in childhood. She was a Muslim woman and I had no chance to get used to eating pork. I don´t feel I am losing anything, you substitute one food with another.

True there are economic consequences, if we Turks ate pork, we could use this abundant and economic food and probably there would be fewer hungry people. Alas we don´t like it regardless of what we believe in. I have no problem eating it occasionally in a friends house but I would never buy it since I said I am not dying for it.

As for chickens, I suppose you are not expecting them to follow the same rules of hygiene as we humans do. Chicken meat has been consumend for thousands of years and it doesn´t do much harm at all. (Though I don´t prefer chicken all that much either).

Vegetables grow on animal carcasses and most of them are either GDO or hormone treated (thanks Israel for destroying natural seeds), meat from domestic animals is full of antibiotics and other drugs and the meat is further treated with preservatives to extend its shelf life. These are the natural results of having to live in an overly polluted world.

Meanwhile, thanks Lucy Lawless for risking her freedom while trying to stop shell from launching oil platforms in the North Pole.

Did you know that before technology in today´s sense existed many people devoted all their time to word counting, word scrambling, fortune telling based on the count of words. Check out the garments of Sultan Veled (Rumi´s son), you´ll see he even decorated his clothes with words which he counted, organized and used for soothsaying. There is no magic or hidden power in this it is just a weird occupation virtually abandoned today.

Symmetry you are telling about might be a product of these efforts. I know you will say Quran has never changed; but no one believes his or her religion has changed either. 

Muslims see the word Allah inscripted in watermelons, Kemalists see Atatürk in clouds and Christians believe in weeping Virgin Mary sculptures. If you want to see or believe in something you can quite easily. 

What I am really questioning is what one´s belief adds to him as a person. I don´t see much, the world is still full of deceit, brutality and opportunitism. I see people don´t want to get burned in hell or expect a bounty if they don´t believe in something just in case there is the prospect of after life.

Here is the sad truth, we humans are not timeless creatures, we don´t have Godly qualities either. We are as insignificant as microbes. Living means dying and disappearing. All that you will ever see is confined to the days you will spend on this Earth. When your day comes you will die and your further existence will be isolated from "you" which will linger on  in other people´s minds for a while and eventually disappear completely.

It takes some ego to assume that man can be awarded a form of infinite existence in spite of the fact that the entire process takes place before everyone´s eyes. You are not going anywhere, you just decompose and mix with the soil.  

Ever considered religion mostly a cultural thing? For example, As a Turkish non-believer whatever cooks in the Islamo-Turkish cauldron has passed on to me too. As a result, there is still a big difference between me and say a Dutch non-believer. Our minds shaped up in these pools. We both climbed different hills and met different obstacles. I believe, most people are not aware that they are Christians or Muslims just on paper. They just blend in this cultural soup that is beginning to tolerate a greater variety of different flavours.

I believe, one could find just a few true believers by Jesus or Muhammad´s standards in the entire world´s population. Majority of people just belong to a religious culture and nothing more.

By the same reasoning, only Jews hate Hitler. The people Yavuz killed were people like me and you. That is a very big problem in Turkey; if the victim is a Kurd or and Alevi, people say they were only Alevites anyway. We must hate this person for the blood he shed no matter whose.

True every sultan, king or czar shed blood. We must consider things without forgetting the time reference but even by this definition, there are monsters that history has recorded. I have no love or respect for them. They are kind of responsible for the conflicts that are still claiming thousands of lives each year.

Shah Ismail was a Turk and shared the same culture with the most of the Anatolian population of the day. Ottomans turned their back to Anatolia, disdaining Turks. The palace had set their minds to Mecca and were making plans to spread the Sunnite belief and placing themselves as the center of the Islamic world. The Alevites were an obstacle and therefore expendable. We still see this today. Most Sunnite (so-called) scholars consider Alevites as some sort of perverts. Stories are made up and spreaded among Sunnites despising Alevites and their belief.

Shah Ismail was a renown poet and a humanist thinker (let´s remember the time reference again). He wrote under the nome de plume Khatai (Hatayi) meaning: one that errs.

Because many of Turkey´s current minority and religion related problems can be traced back to him. He is regarded very highly by conservative Sunnites and hated by everyone else. To some, he was the Stalin or Hitler of his time. He sowed the seeds of hatred in Anatolia mass murdering tens of thousands of people.

This is not something unilateral Barba, Kurds often act as a community or a tribe and they tend to monopolize where they are doing business. Wherever there is a Kurdish community in charge of something, there is no room for Turks. You may think this would be a generalization but your example is no different. Truth be told, these two communities hate each other. Turks consider Kurds as a boil on their heads. There is no way out for either community. Maybe, the Kurds are waiting for the day when the US offers them a portion of Turkey on a golden plate. Just as they did in Iraq.

The linguistic history of Finland must be one of the most interesting. The Finnish language is like the test tube of how communities adopt a language, how they turn their back to it due to the changes in the cultural environment and how it revived due to the rise of patriotic feelings.

The way I perceive it, no matter how great the influence of other cultures can be, a language tends to hold on to its own grammar. For example, despite massive changes it has had due to Persian and Arabic influence, Turkish has retained its grammar to a great extent. The abundance of Persian, Arabic, Italian and Greek loan words can be explained in the context of a great empire extending several continents. Iran and Arabia had special places because, Iran had been ruled by Turks for centuries and it supports a very huge Azeri population. With the Arabs we have the religion link. Sultans coming after Yavuz did their best to convert the native communities in Anatolia into Sunnites.

I don´t know about the "striving" part but I am sure Turkish is one of the most difficult languages to learn. It takes a lot of dedication to master it. The speakers of the other agglutinative languages feel the same about their own languages. Finnish for example is a lot more difficult compared to say Dutch.

It takes a lot to learn Turkish; the learners have my respect...

Well, Greece has always been Europe´s spoiled child. Europe has always backed them against Turkey. The US aid back in the 70´s and 80´s had a ratio of 10/7. Turkey had more than 50 million population and Greece had something like seven. They are used to being taken care of.

Nevertheless, it is the bureaucrats responsibility to think about the consequences when they attempt to build such a large scale commitment like the EU.

I don´t remember anyone protesting the accession of Greece, Spain or Portugal. The process was so swift, painless and instantly welcomed. Remember the initial ideal: a European union that would rival the US. What we are getting instead looks more like communism: not the poor workers but the poorer countries demanding a share from the common wealth. In the end of this, there will be a more homogenous, inflation and poverty stricken Europe...

Why aren´t we joining the EU? That is some question really. Are you asking this seriously?

Abla with all due respect, you can´t sell democracy and freedom like selling a Mercedes. It is like asking a poor guy: "Why don´t you buy a Merc pal, it has everything you need."

Well, I can´t because your guys attacked me from all corners. They did this by offering freedom to the Balkans and Arabs at a time when they were busy doing dirty work of slave trade and colonism in their own back yards. After having lost an entire young generation (remember Dardanelles, Tripoli, Yemen, the Balkan Wars, Russian front), we have no money to afford a Mercedes.

The net result was the creation of medieval style, oil rich nations that perpetually fight with one another. They are still coming up with new forms of freedom words like the Arab Spring while they keep on bombing their lands.

We must not import freedom from anyone, we must not transfer your understanding of freedom. We must develop our own version and you must stop trying to export your beloved regime everywhere.

If the West could stop pokin its nose everyone else´s business, this world would be a better place. To prove this point just check out how much money the West has so far poured into wars and conflicts and how much for the charity work? Stop trying to help the world. Just leave the world alone.

As a collective reply those with a Kemalist background. I know we are all Kemalists essentially. Our president, our prime minister have all become Kemalists. This love has turned into a Comic Opera.

Long live the Kemalists, why should they be against you. If it opens a door or two into where they are already trying to enter, they are all Kemalists or to set the record straight they are his keen admirers. They simply like him, it is the name of the game these days. Why should they let the opposition have such a mighty toy? Kemal changed Turkey into a modern democracy, now if they start to change the definition Kemalism a bit, in time, they could do some reverse engineering and put it back where they like it to be.

There is a chess player facing you and he is about to capture your Kemal. Keep on reading their charms that will eventually awaken the monster of bigotry. You will regret one day.

I think there is an anomaly in the message system. When I posted an answer to Barba Mama´s message it appeared as if she posted it. When I deleted that one both messages disappeared.

Barba_Mama, this world is a very complicated place when it comes to international relations.

There are certain things which you think I am taking for granted; it took me quite a while to come to grasp of them. You are trying a balanced approach, mostly sitting on the fence, idealizing the sides as a mixture of right and wrong and you are right up to a certain extent.

Nevertheless, conflicts between nations or communities are far from being simple matters that can be settled with this approach. They are like an iceberg; instead of ice, they are made up of hatred. You can´t judge it by what it looks like because much of it is concealed from eyes.

Take up another angle and consider, why there should be so much hatred and violence in the world? There are borders that isolate people from one another or in the case of civil wars, people involved usually have long spells of peace and jointly formed civilizations. Human nature is neither good nor bad. Unless provoked collectively, they don´t usually harm other people.

If there is war in this world, it is seldom caused by those who seem to be doing the fight. There are known fire starters, they produce the weapons, they have the intelligence, and they have a global coverage of those things. Wars are actually often started by the powers that be. Every now and them, you hear them warmongering, inviting troops from their allies. They are the ones with bases all around the world. Their intelligence services far exceed the reach of the BBC. In short, you need to be a superpower to decide who will kill whom.

Kurds in Turkey is a long story but rest assured, in every episode of this conflict, there is the hand of powers that be. It is a multi-billion dollar project. Without the support of the secret services, they couldn´t survive a day let alone owning expensive weapons, logistic and intelligence channels.

Tunci, you muslims have everything at your disposal now. It is weird you are still concerned about where to pray. You have the government, presidency, justice, economy and private sector at your disposal. The acquisiton of the media dogs (as refered to by Mr. Erdogan) is also complete. Now are you seriously feel burdened because the Eiffel tower may not be available for praying?

As a matter of fact, you have the power to turn Hagia Sophia into anything you like. You don´t have to heed the opposition in Turkey anyway. Go ahead and do whatever you want but don´t accuse the opposition for anything. Your guys are bound by themselves. I am sure they are waiting for the day when they feel a bit more courageous.

Elizabeth, I have just read a newspaper article (in Hurriyet) that tells about the current frenzy in the (government sponsored/controlled) media to ask imams´ opinion about every single matter.

He tells how a medical doctor attending a TV forum that focused on abortion and caesserian birth was given just five minutes and got abruptly interrupted several times while the clergymen talking on the same subjects were assigned 25 or so minutes. He continues to give more and more examples about this.

In Turkey it is the clergymen doing the talk about anything and experts are getting muffled.

AlphaF must be witnessing this too. That is why he calls these people "idiots". This is quite a hot issue in Turkey. I wish we had more people like AlphaF reacting to this stupidity.

Catwoman and thehandsom hope you are not reading Zaman anymore. Now you realize why...

Miranshaway, I have to ask you whether you have bothered reading a history book of any kind?

The Ottoman history is full of conflicts and riots involving Kurds. In other words, these two communities have hardly ever trusted each other for long periods.

True, there has never been a peaceful Middle East. The Middle East has never been able to make their own decisions. All of their crucial decisions were made by the caring British and French protector angels who drew their borders for them, determined who would control the oil hence the money and pay tribute to them in exchange of their self-proclaimed police work.

There can be no peace in a region whose streets are either besieged or invaded periodically. Just ask yourself if there secret agents and provocators in your streets? Are your temples getting bombed routinely? Are you beaten or humiliated by invading soldiers day in day out who take pictures with your uncle´s corpse?

The Middle is a de facto vassal state of the US.

This is an English language forum ikicihan.

As for the dome and the "mouth water smeared on a stone that renders the dome of Hagia Sophia earthquake proof."; Muhammad was not a wizard, nor did he have supernatural talents. In fact, this point is clearly made in Islam and it is often used as a defensive argument against certain sects of the Christian religion that consider Jesus as the son of God.

Islam orders you to use your mind to testify whether a story is true or not. Whoever quoted this, quoted it in vain because it contradicts with the basic teachings of Islam. By pointing out to "mind" as the measure of "truth", the Quran invalidates any superstitious beliefs.

If an earthquake happens, Hagia Sophia´s dome will collapse and the building can be shattered into pieces if the forces applied to it exceeds it structural limits. Hagia Sophia is not the oldest building in the world. Collesium is much older and pyramids are several times as old as Hagia Sophia. The only reason they stood the test of time is because they were built to last using proper techniques.

I wish that Hagia Sophia can survive in the first place. If the expected major earthquake hits Istanbul, the old and weary building may not survive it. Imagine for a moment, that this magnificient temple is lost forever. Would Istanbul be the same?

When you enter the building and check out the things people wrote on its pillars hundreds of years ago, you realize that it is the mere moment that belongs to you and not the temple.

One must familiarize himself with the ways of religious thinking, they believe they follow God´s way which leads them to what is good. They think there is nothing better than doing what they are already doing. They are claiming this temple in the name of God. This is exactly the same notion that destroyed all the mosques in Athens. None of the Athenians must be believing they have actually lost anything by not having any mosques left in their city; none of the persons praying for the buildings conversion into a mosque believe they will lose anything either.

These thoughts must have been running in Atatürk´s mind back in 1934 when he decided to turn it into a museum. The decision came at a time when there was mounting pressure on Ankara to turn Hagia Sophia into a church again.

The building is 1500 years old, older than Islam itself. They dedicated it to Jesus; I wonder he would be pleased as a proponent of selflessness and humility. It has served as a temple, saw pillages and has gradually ran down, leave the building alone... It has already done its job in one and a half millenia.

This was a favourite subject of mine about a couple of decades ago. Here is something that I remember from those days:

In the ancient times, people used to believe in the existence of a proto-language - a language shared by the human race. The "ancient" here refers to nearly 3 millenia ago. They believed this proto-language served the basis for other languages.

A pharoh named Psammetichus I decided to conduct an experiment. He originally sought to prove that Egypt was the oldest human civilization in the world. Nonetheless, he remained faithful to the scientific reality even after the experiment pointed out to another culture as a possible candidate for being the most profound civilization.

The same motive was shared by the linguists of the Hitler era who claimed that German is the original language spoken by Adam the difference here being, the Germans did not care about the scientific truth.

I found a paragraph that repeats what I learned in those days:

quote Wikipedia

The Greek historian Herodotus conveyed an anecdote about Psamtik in the second volume of his Histories (2.2). During his travel to Egypt, Herodotus heard that Psammetichus ("Psamṯik") sought to discover the origin of language by conducting an experiment with two children. Allegedly he gave two newborn babies to a shepherd, with the instructions that no one should speak to them, but that the shepherd should feed and care for them while listening to determine their first words. The hypothesis was that the first word would be uttered in the root language of all people. When one of the children cried "bekos" with outstretched arms the shepherd concluded that the word was Phrygian because that was the sound of the Phrygian word for "bread." Thus, they concluded that the Phrygians were an older people than the Egyptians, and that Phrygian was the original language of men. There are no other extant sources to verify this story.

unquote Wikipedia.

I respect both Bible and Quran

Lemon we are good people. Everything we do is right. We are bound by our own wisdom. If we thought we sucked, we would do something to change ourselves. You are that way too. There is no need for a referee in the presence of so many faulty people. We are all excellent, and equally incomplete. Truth be told, there is a tug of war among nations and the best way to survive in this to pull harder. Think of your shortcomings and you´ll lose without putting up any fight.

As for what would happen if they sold the Bible in the marketplaces freely in Turkey? There is no need to wonder, I have seen quite a few places where they give away Bible copies. Is it complete safe to do so? No, every five or ten years we hear of a major incident but this is kind of expected in any country.

Unless you want us to fall on our knees and repent or confess, this will go on like this forever. With all its flavours, ours is a unique culture, it may appeal to some people and some may detest it. Whatevert the case, there is no magical button that changes such profound things like culture, religion, hatred etc.

I agree with Elizabeth. As long as the audience is grown ups who can make their own decisions there must be no legal burden keeping people from publicizing their opinion or selling/distributing any legal book.

There is an old saying that goes like "most thefts occur in the vicinity of a police station." There are so many cliches firmly establishing Europe as the cradle of civilization that we don´t expect what is considered the "norm" for others to be so flawed and so unjust. I wrote in an earlier post that Europe is not at good hands. All the major nations are run by people lacking qualities to open up new paths in all aspects of life for people. Instead, they do their best to create a monocultural Europe disregarding the need for becoming more versatile and more dynamic both economically and culturally.

Unless their voters wake up to the reality, it will soon be too late for Europe...

Well, as far as I know, barbers are divided into two categories in Turkey: those who make bombastic looking unbelievably big hair for ladies preparing for wedding parties, and those who turn your wife into an alien when there is apparently no reason. 

I have never heard of white or black hair salons. We don´t have a sizeable black community in Turkey. If you are talking about afro models, I am sure you can find many salons offering that type of  hair do. 

There must be salons offering Jamaican style hair braids because I occasionally see people with that style.

I hope you´ll enjoy your stay in Turkey no matter what happens to your hair. 

Religion is not something we can judge, restrict or even question. Even in secular regimes, religion is sponsored by governments this way or another. Let alone questioning the belief of the masses, even a minute criticism directed at the religious belief of a minority group causes tension and this tension sometimes turns into hatred in the long run.

There are a number of assumptions, although we are born naked, it is inconceivable that we go naked in the streets. Targeting a religious group is comparable to the previous act in terms of the shock it causes.

As for the main question: is religion deadlier than smoking? I would say no, we live the lives of humans and die the deaths of humans. Religion is a part of our societies and therefore it is an essential part of our personalities. It is not one religion written in a certain holy book I am talking about, instead, myriad of ancient religions still manifest themselves in our languages and folklore, in other words, it is one of the main ingredients of our cultural foundation.

One would conclude, smoking can be avoided, it was not a part of our lives until a couple of centuries ago. Smoking habit has gradually become rampant and it has turned into an oddity where the number of smokers constitue a sizeable portion of entire population. This is a new experience. We can predict an enourmous increase in the number of smoking related ailments. Will scientist come up with a cure? I think it is very unlikely. As a results, millions of people will have to die of lung, bladder or similar cancer types directly linked to smoking habit.

Things like this remind me of Leonard Cohen and his song :

Maybe there’s a God above
But all I’ve ever learned from love
Was how to shoot at someone who outdrew you
It’s not a cry you can hear at night
It’s not somebody who has seen the light
It’s a cold and it’s a broken Hallelujah
....
There´s a blaze of light in every word
It doesn´t matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah

OK. It is quite obvious that the smoking problem or excessive kilos is not a problem between us. Those are our individual problems and the best help you can offer to others (if you are sincere) would be sharing your own experience. I think I tried to share mine as it came to my mind.

In fact, anyone would realize that I am going through a special period in time. I am in the process of losing my father and the reason is his smoking habit. Hence the apparent touchy language of my previous post. I tried to reveal my feeling as much as my English would let me.

There must always be someone who does not quite like the tone or the words or even the mood with which an article is written. For your information, I hardly ever state that I like a message. It just may have a statistical significance. In my opinion, every opinion can be considered right in a certain context. Sometimes, people say they like my messages, sometimes people say they hate them. It is all up to them. I have nothing else to say about their preferences.

I used to smoke too. I was a chain smoker. It all started in the university. I was enjoying the freedom of being at the helm of my own life in a different city. My father was about my age then. He had no health problems. No one got burned out of smoking. It was just the cigarette burning one after another. Entrance was free, friends kept offering until they thought I became a freeloader who needs to pay for his own cigarettes. My mind was busy then. Perils of smoking were so low on my list, I did not give that any thought. Years followed one another. I became a regular smoker with firm preferences about the brand I smoke, the time I start smoking and the thing that I drank with it. Cigarette seemed to give me peace of mind and concentration when I was in need of a boost in my cognitive skills. It acted as a painkiller and a tranquilizer.

Then one day in February 2001, I decided to quit never to smoke again which I did. I dumped everything smoking gave me and regained my lung capacity. As a mild asthma sufferer, I would say that was one of the best decisions I have ever made. That was also the hardest decision with consequences so hard to endure. Years after quitting, I was still smoking in my dreams. I just did not light that single cigarette which saved me from relapsing to the smoking habit.

Now I ask myself this question: why would someone smoke knowing its hazards? I think many people (including myself) have tons of mild psychological disorders. These are so mild, we don´t recognize them easily. With many people around us suffering from similar problems, we sleep on those problems and resort to smoking and/or drinking for an easy cure. Smoking is the aspirin of temperament problems. The bad feeling goes away but the suffering remains. When you don´t smoke, you become more aware of your condition and seek help.

There is so much to say about the psychological, sociological and economic aspects of smoking. Like anything related to humans, it is so complicated. It is the tell-tale sign of a very serious social dysfunction.

Thank you. Smoking is the plague of the century. People must always go to the extremes before realizing what kind of a mistake they have been doing. My father stopped smoking months before the diagnosis but 60 years of smoking had already done enough harm. He has been suffering from COPD for a couple of years. Now, the cancer. How can anyone contrinue smoking knowing that the fate is invariably either of these two diseases. One of them causes people to get exhausted just by walking a few meters and the other dooming them to premature death. How irresponsible people get just for pleasure. I see chain-smoking mothers. Sources of bad examples are plenty. People tend to think life is endless at young age. Take Adele, this young singer see no problem declaring she would prefer smoking over becoming a mother. We need to become wiser...

No we both did what we thought right. There is no reason to regret. We could get bitter in the future too. This shows we ardently defend our causes and are willing to come to terms when there is a chance for agreement.

Thank you for your good wishes. My father has the lung cancer. Let this be another warning for smokers.

Teşekkür ederim / Thanks.

Of course, humans have good and bad qualities. In fact, that is the starting point of almost all the religions. For example, according to Zoroastrianism (a 3200 year old religion) which can be considered the basis of many later celestial religions: God has two spirits: Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu or in other words good spirit and bad spirit. These two constantly fight with each other. Humans are free to follow either spirit but it was said in the end Spenta Mainyu is destined to win.

In this ancient religion, there is a superior God Ahura Mazda who is the father of these two. From there you can guess it serves the basis for the holy trinity tenet of Christianity. Gathas (the holy book) is like a source of inspiration for later religions. In Islam there is a bridge called Sırat. All the mortals will eventually walk through that that bridge to reach heaven. If you are an evil person you are bound to fall down to hell. This entire story was borrowed from the Gathas. Both Christianity and the ancient Egyptian religion have similar mentions.

If you read, Zoroasters dialogues with Ahura Mazda you will realize why this ancient prophet needed a God. There have always been wicked people in the world. Nonetheless, evil and good have relative meanings. Take Al Qaeda, they base all their actions on God´s orders and they risk or sacrifice their lives to implement those so-called orders. If religion is a way to reach good how can they be bad? But in fact, from a Western perspective they are the devils.

Thank you.

Judaphobia, Turkophobia etc.; these words were not tokenized for nothing. There are indeed all sorts of phobias in the world. Many of them are deep-rooted. One such phobia is Turkophobia. From our perspective, it is so strong, anyone who lived in Turkey through the 70´s and 80´s would tell you, the Christian world hates Turkey and they have rarely sided with Turkey in any international conflict. This is very slowly getting weaker but it is far from over. A few days ago, an old Italian colleague of mine was with me in Istanbul. He confirms that by saying: there are still many Italians who think Turks, Iranians and Arabs are all Islamic fundamentalists and they must be avoided. He adds those who had a chance to visit Turkey have a totally different opinion.

There is no fast and easy cure for hatred. It is human nature. No matter how advanced we get, we still have the instincts of a beast. Though we act on a more complicated abstraction layer, we still display the same behaviour pattern of the stone age caveman.

My father has serious health problems and the doc says my blood pressure has gone up due to excessive stress. Thanks for asking where I have been. I hope I can spend more time here from now on.

Thank you for your suggestion si++. The problem is he would rank about the last on the list of journalists that I am pissed off with. In fact, I had not even heard of him before reading what looks like his primary school composition assignment.

Thank you for bringing this into our attention but I hate these formula articles where the writer takes the freedom of ignorantly raving about the results of a poll which he sees a chance to inject his irrelevant opinions.

This is one of the most idiotic articles I have ever read. Anyone calling himself a journalist must first of all know about the basic facts about his/her country. What can the audience of this piece of junk article be: primary school students? Comparing Turkey with Saudi Arabia a welfare society almost singularly dependent on oil, with a country featuring economic depth and diversity essentially based on the hard work of its people. This guy doesn´t even know income per capita doesn´t denote economic power. I am sure he hails Kuwait and Luxembourg as economic giants too.

Turkey has a much larger economy than even the richest Arab League country (about twice as large as Saudi Arabia) and its GDP per capita is better than most Arab countries save a few oil-rich ones.

Let´s set the record straight, most Turkish people don´t like Arabs and vice-versa. It is only through the efforts of our Arab loving government that we are getting popular in the region. Our TV shows also help with our publicity. It is not that I endorse this lack of affection but it is unfortunately true.

Unfortunately, most of our journalists are utterly shallow creatures. Many of them are bigots to start with, some are sexist and some are machos. There are female columnists writing about their g-strings and some advocating hijab claiming that would liberate them. It is getting more and more difficult to find a piece of news free from bias, partiality and bigotry.

Though this is not specific to Turkey, my answer would be the tax system.

No matter how hard you work, how creative you get, what risks you may take, the tax man is always there to claim his big share. He is your natural partner who only reaps the benefits and stays away from all the risks.

Once the money is in his system. You have no control over it and he has no need to ever tell you. Your money probably travels from your pocket into that of some fat and ugly big shot favoured by the powers that be.

In your previous story, we observe the spontaneity of interactions among individuals. We could draw some general conclusions but that might not apply equally well to all women following the hijab code etc.

Nevertheless, we can claim religious orientation does have a strong inflıuence in the ethical aspects of behaviour. Religion being lived as a cultural asset rather than a strictly followed set of rules, we could consider it as both a catalyst of the resulting cultural outlook and a product of that culture itself.

Morever, presence or absence of consent to a mainstream religious way of life could be a deceptive indicator of one´s cultural identity. Communities produce all sorts of members from a religious point of view. Nevertheless, just like the bulk of icebergs immersed in water, the essential aspects of an individual is immersed in the cultural pool of his/her society. A much safer way to criticize behaviour in such societies would be to disregard the caps and turbans and the stuff. We could get better results if we used psychology and sociology as our guides.

Since human is human everywhere, we could understand him better if we look at him/her from a universal perspective. Religious and cultural aspects will only be instrumental in further understanding their traits etc.

I wish I could flee abroad during this blood bath.

You seem to be partly endorsing what I had written earlier. Nonetheless, it seems you think that we open up the doors to our private lives willingly or we must be ready to accept the consequences if people decide to peek into our lives. You must however realize that people are rarely consenting to disclose their private information to anyone wishing. In most cases, they trust an organization and consider their promise to keep what is trusted as confidential information as confidential just as they are meant to be. Some of these organizations however are said to be threatened by the US government agencies and the confidential information trusted to them is leaked to them. Once they lay hold of this, they can access further information easily since they now know all the vital information like passwords, answers to secret questions, private communication of not only the person who is being tracked but also every other person associating with him. In other words, the intelligence guys have easy access to an area that may be considered as a cache of thoughts and opinions. If you know somebody´s political inclination and the contact he/she has, you can predict what he/she is capable of and when he/she is likely to take action if she ever will. Now this "if she ever will" part is a bit important. because one of the essential tenets of justice is the assumption that one is not guilty unless he commits crime. You may think of killing me but you are not a murderer unless you actually do that. The police are not in pursuit of potentialities, it is a world of crime and evidence.

It goes like this, you go online, open a Facebook account and don´t add me as a friend on account that you have a jealous boyfriend; but what if I am in association with Facebook and that I have access to all your secret information including a chance to remotely leaking into your PC?  What makes this possible, your consent or a malicious network violating your privacy?

Where else would they look when information is presented to them on a golden plate and on a voluntary basis?

This world is like a masquarade, no matter how democratic you may think your nation has become, the authority always finds a way to infiltrate into your private life. All this happens in the undercover of a candy box design. You find your sweethearts on the social media platform in exchange of a security check into your thoughts and political inclinations.

If this trend goes on like this, there will effectively be no private life in the future.

Could it be that we are travelling on a seemingly benign road of technological advancement that will eventually lead us to Mr. Orwell´s world of Olligarchical Collectivism as laid out in his 1984.

As long as our leaders have interests other than those strictly national and deep rooted fears of becoming a loser in the power equilibrium, things will go on like this forever.

We used to be the sick man of Europe. I think it is such a disparaging statement.

In my opinion, the sickness is not limited to Greece, in fact the entire Europe is sick. They just don´t realize that at this point. This is in fact, the collapse of the welfare model which has already been in constant erosion since Thatcher. A non-producing Europe will perpetually suffer from a lack of dynamism. It will run on easy money coming from investments and usury. When countries like China and India begin to stand on their own feet, the game will be over for Europe.

Can Europe find a way to avoid this looming end by substantially changing its socio-economic structure before it is too late?

This is not a game of my backyard vs your backyard. We are talking about democracy and freedom(s).

This is probably the most (looking for a softer statement here, help me TC members) answer I have ever received from anyone.

Logically, you should not even bother protesting me amid all our woes and fears related with terror, eartquakes and the stuff.

As a matter of fact, we must all mind our own business who cares about Khaddafi, I can´t even spell his name. With the world being full of jerks and nuts I must put a limit on my expectations. Why move a finger? Why worry? Just let it go...

A curious question; which Western newspapers or TV channels featured the private pictures of Khaddafi´s daughter? What was the purpose of this violation of one of the basic human rights.

Pillagers raid in your house and capture your private (some of which are glamour-like shots) pictures and you see them in press next day. Who is patting on the shoulders of these savages? What kind of a relationship is there between them?

The level of hypocracy the West handled this and the way it now wants to walk away with it is simply repulsive. Anyone curious enough to take a look into the major incidents of the near past will find similarities.

There is a period of disinformation serving to satanize the regime of the targeted country. The media immediately and unconditionally begins doing their share to complete the bad image by fabricating and distorting truth. Then statements follow one another. Mere assumptions are presented as facts. Apparently all of this is done for the sake of democracy and by democratic regimes.

Saddam sought to build an Arab unity and posed threat to the West.

Kaddafi sought to build an African unity and this was a threat to the interests of the West too. In fact, it can be safely said that he turned a tribal community into a nation investing heavily in agriculture, housing and infrastructure increasing the welfare in his country several folds since he has taken over. They say he had mental problems and probably made a few mistakes and committed a number sins in his long reign. He was a strong man though, he could convert the potential of his nation into a sort of influence unseen in his geography. For example, many of you might not know the names of Moroccon or Tunisian presidents but Kaddafi has always enjoyed a celebrity status among the world leaders.

In my humble opinion, there is indeed a need for a strong anti-Western front. It would be the best if such a front had comparable military and economic might. Instead what we have today is a bunch of weak countries whose leaders are presented as lunies by the mass media.

I don´t want to live in a world where the big brother decides whom to terminate. Just tell me for how many deaths (both inside and outside the country) the last 10 US leaders can be held accountable. Every leader has skeletons in their back yards. It is just that we seem to disregard the sins of a leader if he is serving us.

I have this weird problem. Sometimes, my message disappears after I post it.

In that message I was trying to present the East as the lesser evil not hugely responsible for global acts of malice and how in fact it is being used by the powers-that-be who are doing their best to satanize it.

As we are talking, certain people are looking for excuses to settle the account with Ahmedinejad.

When this is done, a new villain will have to be created.

Well, now that I am not sitting on oil reserves or energy resources, it seems I have every right to point my finger at the profoundly hypocratic aspects of the hot air balloon called European democracy.

In fact, the West in its general outlook resembles a mosquito, it got fat by sucking others´ blood. We might associate its annoying buzz with the lessons of democracy it is trying to circulate among the half-wit majority of an apolitical world.

Shameless by birth, it never misses a chance to manipulate or to fabricate. The West is the scorch of the world and it is proving this point by perpetually shedding blood.

Tears in my eyes. Glad, this last dictator hunt was accomplished flawlessly. No one accuses the West despite its obvious role both in Libya and the rest of the Arab world. They did not drop their bombs, they did not stir any troubles, they did not arm any parties within the country and now they have every right to accuse the so-called freedom fighters of cruelty.

That´s good, anyway, no one is asking questions to the government in the West. When you are free and democratic by nature, why would you need other regimes or different points of view? Just bomb the bastards´ land if they are misbehaving...

Could it be this poem?

Masa da Masaymış Ha by Edip Cansever
Adam yaşama sevinci içinde
Masaya anahtarlarını koydu
Bakır kâseye çiçekleri koydu
Sütünü yumurtasını koydu
Pencereden gelen ışığı koydu
Bisiklet sesini çıkrık sesini
Ekmeğin havanın yumuşaklığını koydu
Adam masaya
Aklında olup bitenleri koydu
Ne yapmak istiyordu hayatta
İşte onu koydu
Kimi seviyordu kimi sevmiyordu
Adam masaya onları da koydu
Üç kere üç dokuz ederdi
Adam koydu masaya dokuzu
Pencere yanındaydı gökyüzü yanında
Uzandı masaya sonsuzu koydu
Bir bira içmek istiyordu kaç gündür
Masaya biranın dökülüşünü koydu
Uykusunu koydu uyanıklığını koydu
Tokluğunu açlığını koydu

Masa da masaymış ha
Bana mısın demedi bu kadar yüke
Bir iki sallandı durdu
Adam ha babam koyuyordu.

Lemon, international relations are organized around the principles like reciprocity, mutuality with measures, counter measures and retaliation being the universally expected outcomes when either party violates the rights of the other. 

The Turkish government made her stance clear by saying Turkey would respect all aforementioned principles and will act in line with a state tradition that does not allow acts like intervening vessels in international waters. Turkey demands an official apology and compensation to be paid to the relatives of the victims of the flotilla incident.

I know a huge part of this is a political show with targets not necessarily confined to the scope of this singular incident.

Consider this in the framework of this example: Suppose that I am labeled as a thief but I just brag about it without ever stealing anything from anyone. One day, another thief breaks into my house and gets caught in action when I turn on the lights. Will he just walk away with what he has just done? People must only pay for their deeds. Putting aside the manners and the outlook, Israel is the party that took action and they must now bear the consequences.

A man who is agressive towards women must have serious psychological problems many of which may be resulting from his upbringing. Turkey is not an exemplary country in this department. It is getting better gradually but then quite a few women prefer machos. I have heard this over and over. 

Once when we were playing basketball with friends we saw a man beating his girl friend. We rushed to the scene. I held the guy from behind to control his aggression. The man did not even resist, he was obviously scared of being beaten or something. The lady took advantage of the situation and began hitting the man. The man ran to his car and left the scene. Some relationships are enigmatic. All hell breaks loose but somehow they can´t part or in some cases one of the partners doesn´t let the other leave.

What can we say other than RIP?

If someone bullies you, you do not normally react by self-criticism. The developments in the recent days are all serious affairs that have resulted in implications to the lifes of millions of people on both sides and more seems to be in store for the future.

Israel has adopted a patriotic tone since the beginning. No sane person would tolerate this. We have to show a reaction. Elsewhere, weaker nations lose their complete freedoms and welfare as a result of this show of machoism. It seems that the UN endorses this. All I am saying is this will not change anything. I am not yearning for a war but I am not saying a war never becomes necessary either.

"Fart" is obviously not a nice word on a public forum but in the end, there is a seed of truth in your statement. 

This world is being run by the almighty Western superpowers and the rest of the smaller Western countries take advantage of the broad classification by dutifully shaping their foreign policies in line with the interests of the US. Pro-western countries like ourselves meanwhile have to pretend standing on the fence just to keep their own citizens happy while giving full support to the same iron clad principles.

In other words, we are in it, traveling on the same train. We don´t have what it takes to put an end to it. This is their high time. They are responsible for most of the evil and good.

Israel presented a point of view to the world. They are the champions of a thought that holds it: you do not have to be powerful to run the world. A tiny country with limited means (apart from those granted by the US) in some desert land has an unprecedented weight in the world´s political affairs. This way, the well-being of a couple of million people can turn a whole region into a blood-bath. 

On paper, Turkey is stronger than Israel. A comparison of the navies alone would testify this. However, Israel has nuclear weapons which they can resort to when they feel threatened. Not a big navy, not a big army but creme de la creme of the big weapons.

Turkey will probably not turn this into a hot conflict. Because that would mean the beginning of another world war. What is more Turkey will probably be alone in this. Even the Arabs will not have the guts to side with Turkey. The rest of the Western countries will not buy Turkey´s criticism about powers that be.

There is speculation that Turkey also owns nuclear weapons. Once missiles are fired there is no going back but for now, the show must go on...

Here are my observations:

-The way Fenerbahçe management and the fans deal with the ongoing crisis is apalling. They act as if nothing has happened. They must have immediately disassociated themselves from crime and criminals. Unless fabricated, there is enough evidence to believe that their management are involved in criminal activities.

-The way the information leaked to the public is a scandal. That´s unbelievable. But we are kind of used to this. All crucial information that can damage the government´s opponents appear in international web sites. Remember what happened to Deniz Baykal and the high ranking army generals recently. They all follow a similar pattern. This calls to mind, the conspiracy theory that claims Fenerbahce president has been punished for bidding despite warnings,  at a large tender targeted by powers that be in Turkey.

-The way Turkish Football Federation handles this is another big scandal. They don´t have an opinion of their own.They look ridiculous when they do what others tell them to do. As if they are not obliged to know the UEFA rules and practices. What is their job then?

All these show, we are heading towards a chaotic period where justice is only served to those who control it.

Yes, I also suggest them become super democratic after being tired of butchering one another.

Should there be any delay in the process, the UN must intervene by carpet bombarding  what has remained from Libya. The fewer people remains, the easier it will be to become democratic (whatever that word means).

Anyway, we will have to be content with a soft Islamist regime that will show obedience to the West while oppressing its own people under sheria. We can also begin to see vultures (oil companies) rushing in to complete the scene.

Now the big question is which country will be the next?

Let´s be perpetually penitent then...

My mother who needs to take  blood pressure control pills fasts at the age of 71. There are millions like her out there. Based on the number of fasters, we must have long become a nation of angels. We sacrifice poor animals in the streets to pay for our sins too. Are we even one percent better than the Dutch or the Brits?

I wish tax payers money would be used for some scientific research instead of this public show.

Remember the name of that volcano that ruined the air traffic in Europe. Some channels even claimed they render the word most accurately showing a selection of other European channels mispronouncing it.

In every language, there are unique wovels pronounced correctly by the native speakers of that language. For example, for many of our foreign users it is next to impossible to pronounce the wovel "ö", "ı" is difficult and "ü" is a challenge. Some people may think they are rendering these wovels correctly but in fact a native speaker will detect the difference instantly.

There are speech sounds unique to Arabic too. Since Arabic is closer to European languages than Turkish is (because of the Indo-European link) one of their wovels is a bit like the British AE sound. It is neight "e" nor "a" hence the confusion.

TRT has recently opened an Arabic channel. Maybe, their staff wanted to help the guys at the Turkish department which resulted in this non-standard pronunciation.

As for popularity of Esad as a Turkish name, I can´t agree with you, the only Esads I have ever heard of are Hafiz Esad the Syrian President and Küçükesad a district in Ankara. It is an old name which was already rare in its heyday and not much heard of, today.

No. I guess it is a technical problem. It happens when I post from Google Chrome I guess.

Summarily, I raved about what Ms. May might have meant when she said community consent. Maybe she means, these matters must be settled according to the norms of different communities, if it is a Turkish or Kurdish community they may bang on your heads with their bats; elsewhere you are free to loot. Please let us keep our heads up when we are basking in the pride of our advanced civil and cultural norms. You surely don´t expect me to be bothered with the matters of the commons just because I am a home secretary.

My wife occassionally calls me a selfish person; that is after quite a few decades of joint life and on top of a romantic background. I don´t carry a mirror; I think, I am quite alright but it seems many of my opinions are not shared by everyone. This calls to mind how difficult it is to get along well with people.

On a larger scale, society is very much that way; no matter how we try we can´t please everyone. Regardless of what we are discussing, there will always be different opinions. Remember people don´t pay you because you are good; nor do they marry your because you have a golden heart, you can´t win a contract just because you have a golden heart; even if you are Jesus Christ, there will be more people who don´t think like you than those who do.

I believe even Socrates would need a break from philosophy once in a while. A pro-freedom Pole having a disgust for religions can´t get along with an American pro-Muslim woman. Yet, they can talk about flowers and the stuff. They can talks about a zillion of other matters that has nothing to do with religion. This is exactly how common people get along; and it is a proven basis for tolerance a quality which is usually harder to find than faith.

aşkı meşki bırak işine bak

forget about love and the stuff and mind your business

You certainly have a point. Nevertheless, we must admit, no matter how advanced our societies can be, they all have structural flaws, shortcomings and persistent problems. Some of these problems may be related to our basic notions about freedoms and their limits wbich can be the subject of another lengthy discussion.

As you say, a "sensible" censorship (though these two concepts hardly fit together) might be what we are looking for.

No matter what we discuss it eventually turns into a fight of mind-sets, political choices and cultural values.

You seem to have some sacred castles in your minds. You think books and movies must be exempt from censorship. Books and movies could actually be very important sources of inspiration for some. You don´t seem to realize, they do not harm a normal mind; the real harm is done to people with the tendencies. Moreover, books and movies can contain criminal elements; what about child porn, torture, sadism etc. I would not move a finger if somebody put the producer of the SAW sequel in prison. No matter how interesting, I would not mind if Bonnie and Clyde were never produced at all. The same goes for a number of Tarantino movies. I like them too but one must consider their influence on certain individuals.

I don´t want to ruin your holy castles but in my opinion, a well-defined censorship which is well laid out, transparent and simple enough to be understood by anyone is a necessity. This is already in place in the TV and movie sectors. Books and Video games must also be kept under scrutiny.

You would say, I sound like a conservative; well I don´t call myself one. I hate to be classified into some category and have a need to sound like a member of a certain political group. Isn´t that a kind of censorship? Can´t we think without remembering certain guidelines produced by Mr. Unknown? Luckily, I have a nihilist side which is still going strong.

You see, at least some people are waking up to the reality... I wish the same happened in Turkey. I don´t think there is any sort of control regarding foreign video game titles. Nobody understands, nobody cares...

When you look around, you can see young people who have become obsessed to video games. I know a teenager who spends all his mornings trying to make virtual money to afford weapons to kill online opponents in the evening. The session continues until he falls asleep just before the dawn. All his life is virtual. He has the tell-tale signs of a looming obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Experts say, once the brain gets into this cycle, it becomes unable to learn anything that requires concentration. Affected individuals must let their brain rest for at least two months before getting ready for complex and long hauled learning activities. If this is not substantial harm, what is it then?

That´s a laughing matter. After returning ours. We must conquer Paris and New York too. There are bigger obelisks to be returned to Egypt in those cities.

I believe, many people have what may be called racist elements in their mind-sets. These racist elements remain dormant and they are rarely revealed outside the circle formed by intimate friends and family.

Since racism is a part of one´s social identity, it often co-exists with other social and territorial behaviours. There may be explicit or implicit racist elements in video games. We would expect at least the more obvious racist elements are already filtered out but some of the more indirect ones might still be there.  Since racism calls for reaction to reverse harm done by other races, it often necessitates violence which is amply present in video games. As a result video games may serve the first step for some. Games could help normalize certain unorthodox aspects of human behaviour. For many people t hough, this effect may not be seen at all.

Nevertheless, persons with exceptionally distorted mentalities do exist. Although extremely rare, these sick people are capable of giving substantial harm to society. It is obvious that many  of the offensive aspects of their personalities can be linked to violence they are exposed to in their environments but there are also cases where the source of violence can be linked to a mental disorder.

Unless, some paranoid people take a detailed look at seemingly innocent platforms like video games, there will always be another wacko who sees nothing wrong with doing the hunt in the real world. We need to be paranoid about racism if we want to stop it. Because racism is intertwined with our cultures.

Maybe, this is a bit far fatched but some Turks, especially the nationalist ones are crazy about finding any sort of link between Turks and other people.

According to some studies mostly originating from these circles, there are some similarities between the vocabularies of Turkic and Native Indian languages. For example, we use the word "tepe" which means a hill and one of the tribes use the word "tepük" hence the alleged similarity. These wannabe linguists don´t care about the fact that there are tens  of other languages among Indians which don´t even closely resemble the Turkish language.

The same circles believe in a legend which has it that a forefather of Turks was raised by a wolf later becoming a king.

If that is not the case, then we can point our fingers to the comic books such as Zagor, Texas, Tom Mix etc. My generation spent their childhood reading these books. Many of us favoured the Indians -a fact which might explain the current convergence.

If these are still not the case, we might look for a political reason; maybe Turkey considers this a chance to poke her nose into the US internal affairs. By establishing a link with an ethnic group many of whom don´t deny their grudge for the American administration, they might be hoping to bring America to an ethnic chaos. Since the US considers creating political chaos her own hobby, she might get a bit angry over this new role Turkey seeking to play.

I wonder what Daydreamer and Barba_Mama have to say about this.

What kind of a stereotype might be causing these initial reports?

Daydreamer, some people people do go to the extremes when it comes to religion. Bigotry is not specific to a certain religion albeit it is more common among ignorant people. Presently, there are many ignorant people among Muslims. With some countries, they may even be forming the majority. Still, religion itself is not the only factor that causes these tragedies. When you look around you will see millions of peaceful people in Turkey. Their belief is Islam. Islam doesn´t cause them to be violent nor does it compel them to commit crime or to lose their sanity.

You are wrong if you imply, Islam receives bad publicity because Muslims kill their women in cold blood. That would be a pretty tall assumption.

In fact, stoning to death is an Jewish tradition which is openly mentioned in the Old Testament. There is no mention of such a thing in Quran. Jews and probably Arabs had this tradition since their pagan periods. If we are thinking in theological terms, we can hardly condemn Islam for this form of punishment. The claims mentioned in the bottom note of the original message concern the Jewish faith rather than the Muslim one. We must realize that religion is of secondary importance when it comes to patterns of social behaviour. Basic traditions and the general cultural outlook of society have greater influence in such things. After all, many people don´t have the first idea what their holy book actually says.

You can´t stop ignorant people from believing thing that do not exist even in their own religions. Even today, certain people go to fortune tellers; some people still have superstitions. Many people do mix everything together and come up with their own religion. Ultimately, what resurfaces here is the desert law of the Arabs who used bury their daughters alive since they would be of no use to them in harsh conditions. These people had a culture evolved to help them survive in the desert. You know some British secret service guy comes with stick in his hand famously draws the borders among them on sand in straight lines and these tribesmen are divided into easily managable nations. They did not have the culture to run a nation nor to form laws and order on a fair basis. The default order was sheria and the management culture came from a distorted interpretation of Islam.

I am against turning this into a duel between the white knight and the dark one. These traditions can be apalling and they may spread fear among non-muslims. Nevertheless, greater tragedies are regularly caused by the men of the white knight who achieves to remain impeccable despite all the blood in his hands. To understand this point just check out the web to find out which countries the US and the allies have intervened since the last century and how many innocent people have they killed so far.

Well, if it were the massacres, torture and cruelty that form the negative image of a nation then I can ask you about the medieval times in Europe. I could go on to inquire about the cruelties the Jewish communities of Spain were subjected to. I might also ask you about Dracula (Vlad). Sectarian wars, crusades and their barbarism. Indeed, crusaders gave the biggest harm to Istanbul than anybody else. Even Hagia Sophia still bears the signs of their vandalism.

Of course, you were taught in schools like that. There is no denying we were taught the other way around. Wouldn´t it be naive to think Ottomans or Europeans deserve such a bad image.

Assimilation? The world is full of assimilated people. Slavized Bulgarians, Islamized Serbs, Russified or Germanized Poles you name it. Who is completely innocent?

To make a long story short: there is currently a wide spread anti-Islam sentiment in the Western world and this manifests itself not only among people but also in the bureaucratic formalities and political decisions made by these countries.

Let me tell you a story, when you watch Hollywood movies from the 50´s, you´ll find countries like Russia complete with the entire "iron curtain" countries, Germany and Japan were satanized. You can´t deny the government´s role in manipulating a desired hatred reaction against these countries. It is something cultural, it is in the mindset of these nations and their leaders to satanize the enemy.

The same thing happened to the Ottoman Empire. There was a satanic Turk image which precedes the partly bad image of Turks even today. British agents provoked uprisals in the once Ottoman territory forcing the empire to fight wars on all possible fronts. The movies were depicting a terrible Turk image. Agents operating in East Turkey provoked Armenians to form alliance with the Russians and revolt against the country.

It wasn´t the pro-freedom sentiment that caused them to do all these. Humanistic ideals were out of question too. These war lords created small nationalistic countries which are impossible to defy their power. Many of those countries had dictators in place and their people were kept ignorant and powerless.

I am inviting you to undo my judgements about the West rather than find excuses or put the blame on the other party. It is obvious that the West has set its mind on the Islam these days. They are doing their best to polarize the world into haves and have nots.

Some Islamists, bad Muslims, media, complaints and stuff like that... The real problem here is the wrong perception of the Western governments and media who consider Muslims as a potential threat. In many countries, the prophet of Islam is depicted as a terrorist; Islam as an evil religion, people are seriously questioning the entire belief system and all this is happening with a complete denial of the fact that Islam is one of the largest three religions in the world. When you take into account the conflicts happening in these countries and those initiated or intervened by the venerable US and its allies you will conclude that the real evil is elsewhere. The real evil is currently bombing innocent civilians in Afghanistan. I am sorry if these sad news don´t make the headlines in your country´s newspapers but this is more or less what is going on in the world.

True there are terrorist who call themselselves as mujaheddin and they claim they are doing this in the name of God but believe me they don´t have wide spread support. If this wasn´t the case every country being assulted would not have some energy resource or some geopolitical significance.

There are good Muslims and they form the majority, you don´t have to try to tame them any further. They are already humiliated sufficiently. Just close the doors of your boring country to all Muslims and enjoy life the best you can. If this is what you are trying to achieve.

What sort of a problem do you have with MeDanone, can I be of any help?

Good news for his supporters seeking to ride the gravy train.

Check out this link:

http://www.tripadvisor.com.tr/Restaurant_Review-g293974-d814707-Reviews-Pasazade_Restaurant_Ottoman_Cuisine-Istanbul.html

It is not so easy to find a vegetarian restaurant in Istanbul for us the residents.

That´s great news for low life forms.

I am not patronizing you. There is something wrong with your choice of vocabulary here. You are also not completely correct about Miles Davis, the correct wording must be: a timeless musician. He continued being productive for nearly five decades. All his periods were worth listening to.

I am also a keen Jazz enthusiast. My favourite musicians are Theolonious Monk, Miles Davis, C. Parker, Duke Ellington among others. I have about 200 LP´s in my collection. They call me Mr. Jazz man.

Well, you are the boss when it comes to the 60´s. My biggest contribution to the sixties was being born in that decade. The emphasis here is not on Barba´s age. I was just trying to draw people´s attention to the caricaturized image of the 70´s.

In a nutshell, although certain aspects of society was considerably less developed compared to the present time, the 70´s people were a lot more interested in philosophy, poetry, literature and they used to get involved in a lot of different social organizations. Despite the obvious lack of infrastructure and means, they travelled more and with a purpose other than business or relaxation. These people were in pursuit of knowledge and they are in contrast with today´s new generation in these regards. Try asking a 24 year, what he thinks about the social problems of our day. You would hear a lengthy lecture did you ask that question in the 70´s.

As for Amy Whinehouse and Britney Spears comparison. I still think Amy is a bit more informed, at least her genre is more difficult to master and there is less room for hi-tech gimmickry. Also while seemingly childish and selfish, she expresses herself not like a baby doll but as who actually she is; someone whose life doesn´t go the way it should. I hope she will overcome these problems.

Barba, I am curious what your age is. Did you reach this conclusion after speaking to a few hippies? Meanwhile, how come you drew the conclusion that I was talking about flower boys?

It is evident that we are talking about a subject about which you know just about nothing.

Though I am not a 70´s guy myself, I have lived through the transition from one generation into another. Amy Whinehouse is a product of this society. She is not even a proper hippy. You probably associate her with the 70´s because she sounds a bit more intellectual than Britney Spears. Why don´t you realize that in addition to the junkies, there is a whole generation of 70´s musicians who set the standards for others. Ever heard Miles Davis or Leonard Cohen? Pink Floyd had their most productive period in the 70´s. 

Ultimately, we could talk about the presence of  Eurepean and American literatures, artists etc. Almost all the great names were already great back in the 70´s.

Let´s make a comparison between 1979 and the present time. I think from an intellectual point of view, the 70´s generation was a lot more restless, prolific and diversified. These points were reflected in the books they read, the wealth of social activities they got involved in and the social reaction they displayed. With all these in mind, we can say they were more complicated beings who were looking to achieve things beyond normal. Equality, freaternity and respect were among the those targets. They were in friction with the authority who saw nothing wrong with checking those ladies´ virginity.

Time has passed, technology has advanced, new generations revolutionized the technological aspects of our civilization. However, since the spirit of the 70´s was tactfully eradicated, all those advancements have served the powers that be making them stronger and omnipresent. Like silkworms, they weaved their coccoons practically imprisoning  themselves devoid of a chance to revolutionize the regimes and mentalities that enslave people.

Well, well, well, I tried my best to like the winning song but it was a no go. Azeris are related to Turks or maybe they are even more Turkish than we are but the song they came up with hardly represents their culture. They sound like an amateur band from say Sweden or Ukraine.

There were subtle references to the last year´s Azeri entry which was a better song rendered by a better singer. Though they share the same teenager theme, it was a more listenable song.

It is impossible to explain the lack of quality in this multimillion dollar organization when the streets of all major cities are full of cool musicians...

Remembering my younger days, I would say, it is just a myth that foreign girls are easy to get. In fact, they are as aloof as domestic girls. Many generalizations can be made about how they prefer strong, rich and charismatic men and how they look down on others but I would just stand with my initial verdict, women are almost the same everywhere and I don´t like how they are raised in their families. True there are many women who are special but the number is nowhere enough. 

In fact, I have run into very few ideal women in this life and one of them happens to be my wife now.

As a matter of fact, no one can represent the Islam especially in today´s world. It is just a belief. If you say: "There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." You are a Muslim. You could be a disco kid, a prostitute, a sinner or God knows what, but you are still a Muslim.

Look at the lives of Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Osama Bin Laden. They are both Muslims. Neither of them represents Islam. They just stand for their own causes. In fact, despite the ethnic flavour, both Muhammad Ali and Jabbar are more American than anything else in their general outlooks.

Remember both Hitler and Mussolini were great Christians. There are many renowned terrorists and dictators among Christians. Ever heard anyone seriously questioning whether they represented Christianity.

and despite all that thinking, everything turns ... you know what.

We don´t expect customs officers to be polite and considerate do we? They are just too preoccupied with mind reading, judgeing by the looks and stuff like that. Smallest possible suspicion is enough to send a person thousands of miles back home.

Most Turks don´t have a minute to think.

Self-criticism is not easy. You are bound to come with lots of "buts" and "howevers". We know Holland is not completely xenophobic nor does it set an example to racial tolerance.

Let´s remember Pippa´s story. She was the woman who was murdered in Turkey in a wedding gown. Her point was proving that people are essentially good. There is a risk in making such assumptions. The Turk who raped and killed her does not represent the average Turk either. Still, he is a product of this society. He is the bad face of this society The only way to get any improvement would be understanding and isolating the conditions that made that crime possible.

Pippa made a wrong assumption affecting the assumptions to be made by millions of others about Turkish society. Let´s stop making these void assumptions. You can´t turn a donkey into a zebra just by painting stripes on it. We know Holland is not all good, nor is it all bad.

Can´t we just try to iron out the rough spots rather than advocating our countries.

There are two competing arguments:

-Every nation has the right to exercise sovereignity in her territory.

-Every person has a right to travel around the world.

The first one is a derived freedom. It necessitates the presence of state coercion complete with all the necessary organs to initiate, maintain, control and exercise authority. It is derived from the notion of sovereignity. Accordingly, travel freedom hits this brick wall. It is an arbitrary decision but the practical reasons are usually the presence of certain potentials for danger, economic loss, impact on social order and welfare etc.

The second freedom is also a derived freedom. It is more universal than the former. Nevertheless, it is nowhere as strongly established as the first tenet.

Politicians and bureucrats specialize in using the uncovered spaces between conflicting orders to use them to their own advantages. Once the Ottoman passport was one of the most respected documents in the world. Later on, political conjuncture and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire following the rise of the nationalist sentiment in Europe (and elsewhere later on), what is remained from once might empire was not granted  similar respect. Since, the empire was effectively robbed off all its wealth as a result of relentless fighting on all its fronts, its people were also languished, in need of jobs. This coincided with the expansion which was a result of rapid reconstruction of Germany in the 60´s. Millions of Turks went to Germany and settled down there after gaining citizenship. This posed a great threat to Germany. They needed to stop the build up of an enourmous Turkish population in their country. So, they made it practically impossible for any Turk who could potentially may with to find a job and settle down in Turkey. They also complained heavily of the poor performance of assimilation the Turks in their country have been showing.

These people closed all the doors for other Turks who would go to Germany as tourists. It was not Turkey´s mistake. It was more like their own mistake. Maybe, they did not have any other way at that point but they are now bearing the consequences of having a massive Turkish population in their country.

In my opinion, the second freedom is actually more important that the first one. However, since there are so many potential abusers, the free travel issue is like a nightmare for most European governments. They would do everything to stop it.

That means thry can´t be fair to everyone. If you are a German citizen, you can pack your things and book your flight and hit the road wherever the destination maybe. Because you are automatically a reliable person. Even if you want to settle down in another country, it is just a matter of putting the money on the table. Presently, countries like Turkey are considered as slam areas. No matter how rich we get, there will always be the same stereotypes. As a result, we opt for the best bet, if they don´t like you, don´t go to their country. When you run into one in your country, you are bound to show hospitality and this is called good relations. Well, I hope our children can agree on a fairer solution. 

In my opinion, if someone issues an order entailing the death of a person without trial, he is by all means a murderer.It doesn´t matter if that person is a president. Even at wartime, there are rules governing how the sides can engage one another. The procedures of surrender and the way hostages (POW) must be treated are clearly laid out by way of international treaties.

The US is known to have violated these rules extensively.

In 1992, the American naval forces fired at the Turkish destroyer Muavenet causing the deaths of 5 officers and injuring 22 others during a naval exercise held in Turkey´s territorial waters. The rocket system that destroyed Muvenet is impossible to activate without multiple permissions and orders. In 1993, a group of Turkish officers prosecuted the US Navy. The court categorized this incident as a matter of foreign policy turning the case into a dead end.

We all remember the way the US entered Iraq following false accusations regarding the chemical weapon capabilities of Saddam Hussein regime. No one is talking about Iraq anymore. The country has been conveniently turned into a quagmire.

The US is now threatening Iran accusing them because of their nuclear energy program. We also know what is happening in Libya.

Osama was given the weapons and a pat on the shoulder by the US during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. He defended the same cause and was regarded as a good Muslim then. Later on, he became the bad Muslim. If the US did not get involved in these organizations as a principle, there would probably be no Osama at all.

These violations of the international laws will eventually take us to a war. As a rule, no good comes out of malicious activities. Wars begin like avalanches, first a snow ball then a huge catastrophy. No matter what you have to say, I believe there are worse criminals in high places than those in the streets.

"America can do whatever we set our mind to."

This summarizes all. America is still going strong with its patriotic line. The only difference under Obama is the way things are reflected to the public.

Ocalan, the Kurdish rebel leader who is directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people was captured in Kenya, brought to Turkey and has been serving in prison ever since.

The commandos who captured him could fill his body with bullets, I can imagine they were also full of feelings of hatread and vengeance but they didn´t. This is the difference between the European and American notions of civil rights.

I would imagine, the US was afraid of the things Obama would reveal was he given a chance to go through a fair trial. We are not aware how the whole operation was handled. Was there really no way to capture them alive. Like it is always the case, the corpses in leaked pictures seem to have received multiple bullet injuries in close range.

Now the big question is: wouldn´t it be so much better to capture the terrorists alive and question them to get information on their network etc. Only a government who has intimate knowledge about the acts and plans of a terror organization could afford to lose that information.

Most people will say justice is served. We should add to that: "by medieval standards."

Life is funny. I read the holy Quran and after having read the parts refering to women´s role in society; I decide, what is written in this holy book cannot be the word of God. I respect women the best I can, and they respect the mightiest men in their reach due to their hormones and upbringing. What is human other than what he knows or capable of thinking. We are just a few soul who have waken up to the inadequacy of the so called sacred wisdom in creeating perfect society.

Yet since all human are the same physically and mentally though not necessarily knowledge wise, I can only respect their choices in an area I am not afraid to confess, I am not more illuminated than even the most ignorant of them all.

When the towers were on fire after the crashes, I was in Kadiköy getting my computer monitor repaired. The whole thing was live on TV and people were watching the developments with sheer attention; then when the first building began collapsing I noticed the shop keeper next door was shouting slogans and saying he would arrange a drummer (for entertainment) to celebrate what had just happened. It felt like a human misery then. All these statements by the president and details that follow, the slogans shouted in the streets still feel the same way: human misery. That the men and women jumping out from the windows to death was one big human misery.

We are killing in the name of Allah or Jesus and making serious statements about the kill. Vengeance has been taken, the sky is blue and life is happy. Tomorrow, there will be another villain. There will always be make-believe elections. An enemy is always needed. Even if there is none, somebody will create one.

We will always be incurably backward and monsterous.

Just a lot of hot air. I don´t even take this project seriously.

Turkey is a developing country with limited resources. We have so far been unable to connect our major cities with good quality rail roads and/or motor ways. There is a huge economic gap between the eastern and western parts of Turkey. Starting a project of this caliber will serve just a bunch of real estate speculators and construction companies.

Thanks for your suggestion.

Presently, bilingual posts are possible (English-Turkish). English is the main language of this site. Therefore, even if Turkish can be used, an English summary should also be provided.

We could ask the admin, if he could open an all-Turkish forum.

The downside of having a Turkish only page would be the difficulty of controlling the level. It will probably be exclusively used by Turkish users and a few learners with advanced command of Turkish. Under the circumstances, it will probably be as helpful as any Turkish language forum not specifically meant for the learners of the language.

We must also find Turkish moderators and their activities will probably be out of the reach of foreign admins/mods. As you see there are a number of potential problems but since there is a demand for a Turkish page, I will pas this on to the admin. Maybe, he has already been following this conversation.

We have no intention like prioritizing one language over another. 

I feel cold.

Well, most young people carry a labeling machine in their skulls. Since it is a lot easier to think using icons, they tag these labels on people so that they can judge them without having to learn about them first. So, in those circles I will probably pass for a patriotic person.

Ironically, many people here consider me as a patriotic Turk.

The site owner has a different mind set. He took his time to build this site and he is paying from his own pocket to keep it online. For many people, this is tremendous task. That´s why there are usually more users than site admins.

Your point might be valid. The only way for you to realize it is putting the hard cash on the table for the expenses and setting out to build a web site of your own after several sleepless nights.

The only responsibilities the site owner is subjected to is observing the generic requirements of running a public a web site. If you find this web site overpatriotic you should consider other alternatives. This is the nature of the free service on offer and it will remain the same way unless the site owner changes his mind.

Tunci you did the right thing by providing a translation here. If the site was in Turkish or if Turkish was allowed without translations then those who are interested in learning Turkish would not understand anything. We have departments dedicated to language education. Since this is a private site, the rules are determined by the site owner and we observe those rules as much as we can.

I have to repeat the same warning about forum language which is English.

The forum language is English. Please do not post messages written in other languages. This one will have to be deleted if you don´t provide an English explanation/translation.

They have a right to hold on to their identities which they often do. Circassians have a strong attachment to their culture. Having lived in Turkey for a century, their past few generations have become Turkified. Anyone with any amount of IQ would understand that this happens because of constant exposure to another culture.

Circassians escaped from an absolute death and took shelter in Turkey. They were sent to cities usually in large groups where they formed their own communities which are still stronge to date. If we encourage Turks in Germany or elsewhere to adapt to the local ways we are effectively asking them to abondon their culture and become assimilated. There are lots of people advocating this. The other option remains is leaving the country and that´s exactly what our ultranationalist parties advocate. They say: "Either love and work for this country or leave it."

Here is my magic formula: all cultures are valuable and they must be supported. Nevertheless, leaving in a country as citizen entails one to obey or observe certain sets of rules or values which may differ from their own. In return, local people must pay respect to the values of the people who identify themselves differently. This is more or less what people automatically do as long as there are good intentions and a proactive relationship between the two sides. For example, thanks to their perseverence in remaining loyal to their roots, the Polish population of Polonezköy has undergone only a limited amount of assimilation due to the facts that they could remain productive, cooperative and appreciative of the host culture. Because of these aspects of their society, their village is always full of curious locals and they make good money from tourism. Polonezköy is a very interesting place; much like a test tube. I geniunely believe, it would not be easy to replicate the same thing in any European country. What worked here was isolating a community in a village allowing them to create their own village and encouraging relationships with the locals.

Well, I don´t give a damn about her life style since it only concerns herself. She is such a great talent. Probably the best singer in her genre.

She is a young performer now. This is a time when her voice is at a peak. We can´t know whether it will get better or worse in time. One thing that may change is her attitude towards music. If she takes music a bit more seriously and prepares herself physically and mentally the way experienced singers do, that would guarantee decades of listening enjoyment for us the fans.

Here is some info on one of the two sponsors of Ms. Ebaugh mentioned in the text (excerpts from their corporate web site):

"The Pew Research Center seeks to explore both American and global public opinion through multiple projects of the center, including the Pew Research Center for People and the Press, which provides data about U.S. views of national security and other foreign policy issues, and the Pew Global Attitudes Project, which provides an international perspective through a series of worldwide public opinion surveys. Surveys related to foreign policy and global issues have included: the first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans; attitudes of the U.S. electorate on Iraq and other foreign-policy issues, vis-à-vis the presidential campaign; and views of America’s image from around the world. This information is designed to help members of the news media, academic researchers, foreign policy analysts and the public in understanding public views on key global matters both in the United States and around the world. The Pew Research Center does not take positions on policy debates. It is a nonpartisan subsidiary of Pew and is based in Washington, D.C. For more information about its public opinion research on foreign policy and global issues, visit the Pew Research Center Web site and the Pew Global Attitudes Project Web site."

The parts in bold letters are tell-tale evidence of what this organization is actually focusing on. I am not sure on whose money Ebaugh published the book praising the Gülen movement but this level of academic partiality in such a contraversial subject along with sponsored seminar presences by this author where she testifies that there has been no political considerations in the country´s public employment strategies imply that she has been actively involved in what may be called a justification effort of a dubious entity.

When a professor sponsored by so called charitable organizations comes to your country to tell you that a social figure on whom much debate is going on is actually a very good person, this gives you a lot of reasons to become suspicious of the presence of other hidden associations. Just take the matter like this to see how idiotic this whole thing actually is.

If you ask me this whole thing is like a pig circus. It is nothing but a large scale propoganda campaign for promoting a product which has become complete and ready for being offered to the public. You don´t have to invade a country by military means to take its reins. You can do this by these charitable means too.

It all depends on how you describe bourgeoisie. Still, the main focus is not on the past of Berlusconi here though he qualifies as a perfect example of the aforementioned. As a matter of fact, all the world leaders today, even the Chinese leader could be classified as bourgoise leaders. Maybe, we should settle on a more proper word to describe the likes of Berlusconi.

If we analyze his past we see a strong macho link that is in line with the Italian tradition, a big-spending womanizer leading a decadent life. Though not all Italians are this way, there are many Italians for whom what Berlusconi lives is nothing more than dolce vita. I have met at least a dozen wealthy senior Italian men. I was amazed at the amount of money they spent on the gifts they bought for their wives or girl friends. Quite a few of them have wives and/or mistresses at least 20-25 years younger than them. They are quite pragmatic about their relationships. They know they need to pay if they want to hold on to their otherwise impossible (my opinion) relationships. I want to stress again, I am trying my best not to generalize, and this is not something that can be done by an average person. Berlusconi fits in this picture quite well. Of course, we should normally be talking about his policies. I think he is one of the most consistent and reliable leaders. You know he is getting you nowhere...

This thread is going nowhere. If you don´t want it to be locked or deleted; please cool down and stop being on the verge of flaming and insults.

Burak, newquaker´s ethnic roots is none of anyone´s businss. You may criticize his attitude but to link that to him being a Bulgarian or whatever is nothing but offensive...

Well, there are people who believe Mr. Gülen himself is an ideological tool used by the US to mitigate the much feared nationalist sentiment in Turkey and to replace it with what is called a soft-Islamic democracy. All this is done with a healthy dose of anti West sentiment which is easy to tame. Like it always happens, those nations which are criticized severely enjoy strong economic ties with Turkey. Turkey as a nation proceeds on the path of the countries whose political and educational practices are severely criticized by the man. Meanwhile, he lives in the US and funds keep flowing in to make him one of the most affluent and influential persons in the country.

Under the circumstances, nothing associated with Gülen is free from politics,  his understanding of Islam, the attitude of this writer when she praises him are not exceptions. Recently, the raw draft digital copy of a book claiming to have pulled off the curtain over this person´s secret activities has been confiscated. This is peculiar because, no matter how antidemocratic, censorship must normally come after a book is officially published; in this case, it happened in a very hasty manner before the book could be printed and distributed.

First of all let me congratulate you for addition of a new one to your family.

The real question being asked here is not about authority and with the exception of Ataturk none of the leaders I mentioned are remembered as an autocratic ruler. You have opened an interesting window into the general description of what an ideal European leader must be like.

We can say without thinking much that there are three kinds of leaders in today´s Europe: classical bourgeois leaders who represent the interests of the wealthy families. Berlusconi fits here the best followed by Sarkozy. These leaders exhibit a strong personal touch. They have big egos and want to stick to a version of European ideal derived from more conservative past of Europe. There are also socialist leaders like Zapatero of Spain. Engliand set a model for them for years but the Labor party is barely discernable from right wing parties at the moment.

Formerly, the European leadership models were more or less confined to these two types. Of course, all the aforementioned qualities existed in a more accentuated and iron-clad form. Let´s keep in mind that we are not discussing political views here; just the type of leadership.

Today there is a new kind of leader. He/she has an office term, that office term starts and ends in utter monotony. These leaders are unable to introduce any perspective other than those which are already established. They are more like civil-servants. They could make excellent secretaries but not national leaders, did we live some 30 years ago. More importantly, they do not inspire much to new generation. They seem to be taking care of a boring responsibility. It is evident that I am talking about Merkel.

If you want to assess the contribution a good leader can do to a nation, remember the transitions when Gorbachev was in power and the brisk development at the hands of Putin. Germany is talking about inflation and recession. Isn´t this a time for stronger leadership?

Do you think a typical American, Mexican, Brazilian, German or  a typical Dutch is a saint?

Do you think British men walk in the streets with sticks in hand and exquisite manners. Is a typical Spanish guy an ardent reader of classical literature? Do greengrocers really sing arias in Italy? Is a typical Romanian Count Dracula? What about those flying Dutchmen, I think they all work for the KLM.

If multiple examples justify settling on a norm, my typical French tourist would be the one who never washes and shamelessly farts in public. What about those British football fans; they can´t be aristocrats can they. When they abondoned the Taksim square, the whole place looked like an open air public loo. All the streets were washed with sticky beer drunk and conveniently discarded by the fans. It took quite a few fire trucks to clean the place.

There are still paternal families and they are not few but in a country like Turkey, generalizing this point is nothing but ridiculous. I meet many people everyday who surprize me with the things they have achieved in this country. In my opinion, if anything is becoming prevalent in this country its these people who achieve things without judging themselves according to somebody else´s principles. The sooner people realize this point, the easier the relations between them will become.

Let´s remember the last 5 Presidents in the US and the last 5 PM´s in Turkey. I believe all of of them lag behind Thomas Jefferson in terms of the basic tenets of democracy, equality and human rights. They are nowhere near Ben Franklin or Kemal Atatürk in terms of innovation and influence. What will remain to future generations from this generation?

Do we need a pathfinder? Are we even aware of such a need?

Ethnocentrism, xenophobia and the racist sentiment with various modes and intensities are all parts of our lives. They exist in the US and they exist in Turkey too.

Today, extreme right-wing parties freely advocating what could be considered as racist policies can get considerable public support. For example in Austria, the right wing party that calls for imposing restrictions on Turkish immigrants and suspending relations with Turkey could get 30% of the vote. Nevertheless, it is also true that the extremist discourse is usually meant for fishing for votes and they rarely put their silly promises into practice on rising to power. We have had nationalist and religious parties running the country. Could they convert us into what they advertised in their election campaigns? No. That is to say, much of this is really word salad. There are indeed racist elements underneath but as long as the they are not backed by the laws, all that we can do is ignoring them. We must however fight against racist elements in rules, regulations, policies and public statements.

All said, there is little cure in this for your problem about socializing with the US females. To my surprize, they have never been crazy for me either. Luckily, I haven´t been attracted to them either. You know when you live in different worlds, this does not pose a problem. You don´t want to spend your life with someone who has a completely different and incompatible mindset. There examples that prove, there are less typical Turks or Americans than what most people believe.

Usually, we talk, believing that we are making a point. In reality, our listeners derive different messages from our words. These messages are hidden in many aspects of our speech. Although they fail to reflect what you really want to say, they do convey a message regarding who you actually are. For example, I don´t like your "typical Turk" description nor do I like your generalization about American women. Moreover, I don´t agree with your generalization about European women either. Three disagreements following one another. If I were a woman that would be enough for me to keep my distance. A mind that divides people into classes is capable of doing other mildly irritating things. Here is a rule of the thumb, if you divide people into three or more categories and blame them for one thing or another, you are probably a megalomaniac. Of course, you haven´t done this and I am not calling you that but that is just an example...

Although strickly not a problem associated with you as a person, megalomania is quite common among young people and in the campus environment. It is surely one way to beat boredom. Young people live in an oversimplified world where the sky is the only limit. After turning a few pages on the text book, they look at butchers, green grocers and other craftsmen around and dub themselves the next Einstein. A single word could convert them into revolutionaries. I know because I was young too. I had problems understanding women too. I was always amazed why they weren´t attracted to such a high IQ man like me. I was unable to see myself through the eyes of another person then. Even today, that point is a bit problematic.

And the punch line is, the entire America can not be against you. There are still millions of people with whom you could connect with. It is just a matter of trying with patience.

Could you be looking for makam names like Hicaz, Rast, Hüzzam etc? Although makams exist in greater diversity in Classical Turkish Music, there are makams in Turkish Folk Music too. Makams are musical patterns that determine whether certain notes are to be played as sharp or flat.

Turkish Minister for Industry and Trade casts light on the status of capital punishment. Below is translated from the online edition of daily Hurriyet. There is an obvious flaw with this train of thought which is imported from the EU. Even if someone is caught red handed, there is no way to subject him to capital punishment. 

THERE IS NO GOING BACK

Capital punishment is back on the agenda in Turkey and particularly in Kayseri following the outbreak of the news on murder of the kidnapped children in the province.

Minister Ergun thinks one of the major concerns that lead to the abolishing of the capital punishment in Turkey was the probability of false convictions. He said there are instances where evidence found 10 years after the execution proving a suspect innocent, but there is of course no going back after execution. He said this point has induced a trend against capital punishment in the world. Since Turkey acts in line with the EU principles, capital punishment is also abolished in Turkey.

"IT IS NOT THAT CERTAIN CRIMINALS DON´T DESERVE DEATH SENTENCE."

"There are crimes justifying capital punishment in the world´s societies but since there can be false convitions, and some people can be proven innocent after years, we can restore justice to those affected by false convitions at least with a delay.

He shaved his moustache in the last ten-fifteen years of his life.

I am a descendant of the Turks who lived in Greece prior to the Great Ppulation Exchange that took place in 1923, in the aftermath of the WWI.

My grandmother used to tell this story all the time. One day in the year 1923, a Greek priest whom they know knock on their door and tells them to hurry to the port if they want to save their lives. The priest says, the militia were gathering the Turks in a mosque and that he has heard they will burn them. Having found the head of the old woman living next door in the closet of her house, they are already in a panic and they instantly decide to follow the priest. There is a boat waiting for them at the harbour. They get on it and sail to Turkey for the first time in their lives. 

There is a seed of truth in what you are saying. The system must indeed protect citizens from themselves too. 

Nevertheless, like all beliefs about systems whose rules are anonymously set (or at least appear to be that way) there are strings of assumptions whose validity change in the course of time. So what is considered modern will be archaic tomorrow. Public opinion about capital punishment is one such matter which can go in either direction as the assumptions change.

If the matter were say rape and if I could find words to justify it. I might say, in nature there is no rape because sexuality is not harnessed by the laws. THerefore rape is a petty crime and serving 5-10 years in prison would be a disproportionate punishment. If I said so, it wouldn´t be too difficult for you to defend the existing penal code emphasizing the special nature of the crime. What augments the punishment here is not only the material harm done but also the psychological one and the latter has greater weight here. Likewise, when people demand capital punishment, they partly base this on the fact that it is not just the loss of that person but also the irrepairable damage done in the psychologies of the persons who lost him.

You  displayed selective attention when you wrote in a previous message something like this: although many people lost their lives during the WWII like Russians, Gypsies, homosexuals etc., I mostly write and think about Jews and the Jewish Holocaust.  And the laws does consider this a special case and jail you if you deny the Holocaust. If the laws don´t care about anything other than the crime itself why do they single out certain crimes as more punishable. Isn´t that done because of sentiments other than justice? 

Everyday hundreds of people are murdered. There are so many incidents that newspapers don´t carry them unless they concern a celebrity, a very important person or unless murder committed in a strikingly brutal manner and people just don´t mind them all that much. The entire harm of a murder is done to the person murdered and those associated with him. If you judge a murderer with a sentiment expected of a newspaper reader, you can not establish justice in the hearts of those who are victimized. 

There is probably not a single answer to a question like that. If youcan´t be bothered you simply say, yes or no. As a matter of fact, the same person could give different answers in different stages of his lilfe because this is one of the most crucial questions pertaining to justice.

Religions, folklore and the primeval nature of man urges him to take revenge when he or those in his group or family are offended, challenged, harmed or killed by others. Usually, this revenge either equals or outstips the oppoenent´s action. Man is used to functioning like this so it feels quite natural to desire to kill someone who killed one of you. After all, this is allowed and in some cases even encouraged by most religions. 

Modern states are also keen on retailiating. Mutuality and reciprocity are the two key criteria in relations so is retaliation. It is understood that all of these are just elaborations of the eye for eye, blood for blood mentality.

If someone killed someone who is very dear to me, I would wish to kill that person. That would not cure my grief. It would just help my anger. This is in my nature. I am not that modern so as to think about the conditions that caused that person to become a murderer. I can´t think so philosophical. Just as my attachment to my beloved ones is nothing but a primeval feeling, my urge to hurt those hurt them is also a primeval one.

That being said, I can´t claim that would be the most productive solution. Nor can I claim, bereaving someone of his freedom is any different from effectively killing that person. Both are done because of the existence of coercion that can decide on a punishment but not on its limits because of some philosophical reserve.

Nice documentary. I think I understood about 30% of the Dutch conversations since 
Dutch seems to be very similar to English. 

Turkey is like an onion, there are layers after layers. For a foreigner, it might be a daunting task to come to grasp of the chaotic aspects of this society. Nevertheless, the documentary did a good job squeezing as much diversity as possible into a single episode.

Through the end of the movie there was a dialogue with a young girl about Ataturk. She says Ataturk was a dictator and the host asks whether she would mind saying that with the camera on. The truth is, Ataturk was a dictator. He was a dictator who took over the rule from a monarchy and declared a single party regime at a time of utter chaos, economic and military fatigue. He opened the door for a multi partite democracy. On seeing, having opposition meant a reversal of the civil reforms and a rise of the Islamists he abolished that but always look forward to a favourable climate to initiate a Western style democracy. If I were in his shoes, I would do the same.

Slavica, you shouldn´t consider this as a court hearing. It is just something that popped to mind after reading your post about US and UN military interventions (which are actually the same thing in disguise). You could write a self-criticism in addition to the sufferings you went through. It is not a big deal. We sometimes discuss fiercely but remain as friends in the end which is a good thing.

Let´s remember what conditions Turkish teachers of the English language working in public schools enjoy.

* Regardless of where they live, they must serve in a location determined by the Education Authority. This could be some remote terror stricken Turkish village predominantly populated by the Kurds for some of whom Turkish is a foreign language much the same way as English is.

*They must get by with a salary of TL1200 if they are a new teacher. After working for 30 years they can look forward to a hefty TL1400 salary. Note: Salaries are paid on a monthly basis, so don´t reach for that calculator. 

*Their salaries are increased between 3 and 4 percent every year. That is several times smaller than officially declared annual inflation which some believe is also several times smaller than the the actual increase in prices. (Particularly energy, alcohol and tobacco.)

These people are never given a chance to improve themselves economically. So, as expected many of them speak English poorly. Having a salary like that means you must calculate every penny you spend. You can´t believe the precision with which some of these guys have to calculate their monthly spendings in order to reach the end of the month without starving. No entertainment, no social life other than home visits; just boredom and family quarrels.

It is ironic that these nice guys at the ministry are working on such a costly plan. Perhaps, they are targeting the fakirs in the Indian community of the UK. Since they can survive without eating or drinking much, they are naturally eligible for that position.

The government might also be planning to pay these 40k native teachers a salary on a par with what they might get back home. Well, one foreign teacher will then cost as much as 8-10 Turkish teachers. But you know these guys musn´t have born as Turks in the first place. 

Anyway, we are kind of used to this. When I was in Athens a couple of years ago, a Greek guy complained of the high fuel prices in their country. I say: "Oh, come on it is only one Euro per liter." He answers that by saying. "Yeah, but it is even cheaper in Turkey, for that reason all our yachts sail to the Turkish coast to fill their tanks with cheap fuel." Methinks: "There is something wrong with that. In Turkey gas is almost 2 Euros per liter." Then I learned that foreigners are exempt from taxes that´s why they can enjoy the fuel on the cheap. I hope 40k English teachers will enjoy our country too.

Your messages are a bit perplexing. Were you stating a flaw inherent to all democracies when you replied to my first message? I believe your statement was a bit equivocal in this context.

As for what I am advocating, it is certain that journalism as a profession is far from being limited to its dictionary meaning in today´s (an possibly yesterday´s) world. There are extensions to the honorable basic function of journalism which deserve practically no respect (e.g. paparazzi, politically colored, biased publications etc.) And it is indeed questionable that these kinds of journalism should enjoy the same legal protection.

Nevertheless, what is being conveyed here is by the nature of the business are thoughts, opinions and news regardless of what principles they follow and there are laws aiming to control unlawful actions committed by the press.

This last incident might be considered as an example of censorship although we can´t prove therefore openly claim done under the control of the government, we can deduct this point from the general picture that clearly shows who is patronizing whom and whose interests are harmed by what action. 

Once I genuinely believed in people. I thought man is good by nature and therefore anything done through people´s consent would produce positive results for the well-being of society. Time has proven that it is actually the other way around. Democracy could be used for legitimizing oppression. At tactful hands, democracy could be turned into a tool for violating basic freedoms.

We are proceeding on a path of conversion, a conversion to complete somebody else´s dreams.A conversion that will alienate us from our own democratic ideals. I think we have only seen the tip of the iceberg so far.

Where is Slavica?

OK. Keep on finding this ridiculous but religion is indeed a factor for conflicts and wars. There is enough evidence it will remain that way for a good while more. Remember, we atheists are still marginals in the eyes of society.

As for France doing this for the sake of religion or not; it doesn´t matter actually; they are doing this in a part of the world where they have no business. 

I think there are too many blind people around...

If they don´t poke their nose into everyone´s business and aspire the role of global police no one will criticize them. These are just empty words.

Well, it is of course worth checking the tertiary meanings of words used in public speeches. If you are not careful with your vocabulary you are prone to misunderstanding. A murder can be a glorious feat when done in the name of God. You can derive meanings from any word. Isn´t Sarkozy opposing Turkey´s membership on account that Turkey is not European (to most people that also means: since Turkey is not Christian). On a short visit, he made this point clear showing the Midlle East as where Turkey must exist. Don´t tell me Sarkozy´s mind is clear of stereotypes. He is indeed a crusader, he just doesn´t wear an armour.

Quoting Daydreamer

 

cru·sade  (kr-sd)

 

1. often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.

2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.

 3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

French Minister of Domestic Affairs appeared on TV yesterday and openly named the attack on Libya as a "crusade" directed by Sarkozy. 

Source: www.hurriyet.com.tr

Stumpy, if some maniac takes the reins of your own country, will you go and ask for help from Turkey?

Every country must determine their own fate and must pay what is necessary.

When he rose to power they said he would be the next deccal but it seems he is proving how wrong that assumption was. Putin made a statement saying the UN´s call for attacking Libya is  no different from the crusade calls of the medieval times. He said Qaddafi´s regime does not live up to the democratic norms but that doesn´t justify an armed intervention.

In the aftermath of the 1980 coup millions of people in Turkey were jailed, subjected to tortures, and some were evaporated, no one ever threatened Turkey. Thank God we don´t have oil. Because I would prefer to be tortured by my own people rather than having to fight yet another war of independence.  

Daydreamer, the European campaigns of the Ottoman Empire came at a time when great conquests were the rule of the game if one wanted to exist as an empire. You either swallow others or get swallowed by others. For example, Russia declared war against Ottomans many times using the smallest excuse. The idea was to capture Istanbul and reach the warm seas. They couldn´t do this since the conjuncture did not permit. Turks campaigns in Europe could be considered as the reverse engineering of the famous and glorious crusades which are now remembered as heroic tales in the folklores of participating countries. What the Ottomans did was restructuring the East to overcome and reverse European brutality. Istanbul witnessed one of the greatest pillages and destruction at the hands of the crusaders who hated the Orthodox Byzantines of the time. The famous Hagia Sophia was robbed and pillaged as well. In fact, that was the biggest catostrophy that 1500 year old structure ever experienced.

Anatolia was like an otobahn for the crusaders who murdered the inhabitants, robbed their property and overthrew local lords. Turkish presence in Europe is largely a result of the hatred caused by the crusades. 

Janissaries are often exagerated, they are a very small part of the Ottoman army. Since their history is a bit turbulant and since they are essentially the kids captured from the Europeans, everybody thinks they were the main Ottoman power. During the campaigns in the Balkans, the army needed more fighters and they employed bashibozouks who are mainly legionnaires who were not paid any salary. Their main income was the bounties they would get from the pillages they get involved in. That being the mode of working, these people began tormenting locals and created problems for both their employers and the locals whose safety is jeopardized even after the end of the war. That is why they are called bashibozouks which literally means uncontrollable. They were often executed or severely punished at the end of a war. They are also usually local slav outlaws who did not want to miss the opportunity of making a fortune at wartime. There were also Janissary dayis who turned themselves into despots. They were like local sheriffs.   

There has been an ongoing discussion between me and a Serbian member (Slavica). We exchanged a few messages about this in the past and the matter has been hanging in the balance since then.

According to what we were taught in school, Bosnians were the good Slavs who opted for Islam as a community and gained our ancestors hearts. There has always been a good rapport between us and them. As fellow Muslims, they are entitled to our vote automatically whenever there is a conflict we side with them since the Serbs are considered as the bad guys whom we fought several times in history. Our history books were (in my school days) boastful of our great victories against the Serbs. This provides an excellent framework for a hostile regard of the Serbs complete with stereotypes and partiality. I would expect the story on the other end to be more or less the same. We share what is called a Balkan spirit with the Serbians. This so-called Balkan spirit has all the tones of fascistic and nationalistic feelings, a keen awareness of one´s ethnic roots, religious identity and an acute hatred for other Balkan nations.

Ironically, despite these sharp polarities of ethnicity and religion there is little difference in the way their cultures and perspectives about life. Having been raised in patriarchal families, they bow down to authority easily and get easily out of control when agitated or provoked. They are usually childish in their demeanors, you could find persons seriously defending Hitler or advocating a foolish opinion like why it is actually benign to butcher certain folks etc. Knowing my own culture, I know the other cultures too. Though most of this is essentially remains as the word of mouth, it does sound quite irritating to those who don´t know the culture.

Being the natural allies of the Bosnians we have always supported their story. The world was on our side at that particular moment. Yet, we might have missed certain points when we were focused on the sufferings of the Bosnians.

Would you tell us how you felt and what attrocities did you witness durin that dark episode in the Balkans. You don´t have to prove anything, just tell us about the pieces of truth that have never got through to us.

Well, we are getting quite a bit cryptic but anyway. I must set the record straight, I don´t want global cops or a new world order, all I am asking for is letting all nations determine their own fates and staying away from their borders unless there is an anonymously determined humanitarian ground.

Big brothers get out of our gardens and give peace a chance...

Anyone not getting this message, don´t worry, the world has always been the other way around and it seems it will remain that way.

We will sadly, remain as a few objectors whose voice is not heard.

Well, this is perfectly normal, there can always be multiple reactions, this is quite understandable. After all, what we have here are pretty much like Western and Eastern fan clubs. Both are very predictable. I would be surprized if  either group could ever show some sort of empathy. This is almost in their making, with all those stereotypes injected into their brains, all that they can do is producing these uniform sentences. Anyway, as we are talking Libya´s coffin is getting ready, another zombie republic will take its place. Its wealth will be distributed among Western investors and this way Sarko will not need to ask for money from Qaddafi for his next election campaign, nor will Britain have to look for Arab owners for their football clubs. The money is there to be taken.

I will not find anything wrong about you unless you sing the praises of these savage invasions. Stop intimidating the world with weapons and fire power. In the past, we lost almost half of our population to the vicious desires of the Western forces. We fought a war of independence to clear our country from those well-meant French, British and Greek invaders. We know how it feels that´s all. You should understand, the threat is always coming from the West who doesn´t want to let anyone hold on to the wealth of their own nations. 

So the question here is not you. It is just a general reaction. Enough is enough.

OK. If we go on here with this we will become off topic. We could move this to another thread and I will gladly discuss with you...

You are welcome to living in any country Stumpy. The poorer half of the world opens up its visa free borders to you. You can be anywhere, any time with all your complaints and disdain of local culture. You consider yourself as the norm. All the rest is wrong, there is no such thing like natural evolution, let´s wipe them out off the face of the Earth. The bombardment will tame the savages in Libya and convert them into a more civilized people. Don´t get surprized with this, if you compress the timeline a bit, this is more or less how the West has regarded Africa for centuries. This did not stop until after 50´s. Just listen to the memories of the Jazz singers. Even multitudes of Western red necks consider the catostrophy in Japan as yet another revenge of the attack on Pearl Harbour. What would you expect when their government has not officially apoligized to date.

When you take a look at how things are organized in today´s world, you´ll see wealth is controlled by the powers that be with the poverty becoming the fate for billions of people. Any attempt that might jeopardize the situation is punished with bombardments. 

When these poor and hopeless people show up at your gates, you point your fingers at them saying, "These people choose to live in our country because it is good." Yeah, it is good, about 32 million people living in a continent size territory with riches of all sorts captured from the natives. If I were you I would shut up and pray God for being so generous to me. These people are not coming to you because they are crazy for your culture, all that there is, is the usual thing between the haves and have nots.

Bydand, the newspapers ring today with the news that The Arab League has denounced the intervention on account that they are calling for the enforcement of a no-flight zone only; not a full scale bombing operation.

For your information, I am not a fanatic supporter of Qaddafi, I don´t like him even a bit. Nevertheless, I wouldn´t bomb his country without negotiating with him first. He is still the recognized leader of his country. Should he be subjected to sanctions, there are natural steps to follow. These might be economic and military sanctions. When these fail harsher measures could be considered and each one of these steps must be in accordance with the established international laws.

Of course, if you are content with a Wild West type general outlook in international relations, there is not much to be said. It is a bit good luck to be on the winning side. 

We humans have a high IQ but our animal instincts still linger on. Sometimes, we just can´t see the whole picture. We must have fair laws and practices in international politics; we must make sure that justice is served. War must be the last step not the first.

As for Canada sympathizing with the Libyan sufferings; well that sounds like one heck of a tall story. I would more readily believe Canada is siding with their natural allies in the hope of increasing its non-existing international influence.

Just out of curiousity, wasn´t there a seed of truth in the way Bosnians treated by the Serbs during the hostilities. Were the Serbs completely innocent? How did all those civilians lose their lives and how do you explain the mass burials uncovered in the aftermath of the war. 

I am not asking those to tease you or to challenge you, I understand Serbs have become a victim of the war eventually, but what about all those accusations of massacre and the stuff. Do you think they were all fabricated?

Meanwhile, that particular operation was probably the only one that did not involve an energy connection as well as being seemingly not an example of Christianity against Islam drive.

There are lots of dumb people around who will buy the story: "We are liberating Libya". As long as the things are the way they are, this will go on like this forever. Until one day, when they find all the suffering part of the world united against them. Maybe when that day comes, they will realize how it feels to be a victim. I don´t have any hope that I can live to see that day but it is sure to come like any other awakening.

Since we lived under the rule of the same big empire for long centuries, we can safely claim, the kitchens of these countries are essentially same with small local variations. We seem to have almost every single dish Greeks call theirs and vice versa.

The problem here is the fact that Greeks and Turks want to ethnically polarize themselves. This was made possible with the rise of nationalism in Europe and spreaded to the world through the relentless efforts of British, French and German intelligence and the political conjuncture.

I don´t know how this is being reported in the international media but the online version of daily Hurriyet claims the French jets are sent on a mission to bomb Libyan tanks. The US, the UK will get directly involved and Italy will aid by opening its bases.

This is an act of despotism. No political or economic measures have been tried, no negotiation has been carried out.

I was not actually replying to your post. Today, it is in the news that the French jets are on a bombing mission in Libya.

Ah yes, France is known as an established exporter of freedom and peace. They have been doing their best to liberate Africa since  Napoleon. The only question that remains: Who will liberate Africa from France?

Who would believe France is bombing Libya for the benefit of Libyans when they hate the guts of any Arab in their country.

Musakka is the Turkish name. Many of these dishes were broadly categorized under Ottoman cuisine. Some were transfered directly from the Byzantine kitchen, some from Arabic, Persian and Balkan kitchens and some were developed in the Ottoman Imperial Cuisine. Therefore, they are the common products of all the countries that are holding on to the tradition.

When I went to Athens, I thought the town is more Middle Eastern in its general outlook than being a typical European city. Their kitchen, music and lifestyle are also a bit oriental. That´s why they share a lot of things with us. 

The message editor causes errors on my machine. Some lines are deleted, some are broken etc.

Now that we are talking about Libya, it would make sense to learn how to spell its name as a first simple step.  Going back to the original question: 

Meddling with an uprisal in a foreign country must not be the business of any country in the world. If action needs to be taken on the humanitarian ground, an international peacekeeping organization (e.g. the UN) could undertake the responsibility. Since most such legitimate international organizations are a bit more American than being international, the possible negative domestic reaction to such an intervention must be considered thoroughly.