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Eder
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| 10. |
06 Jan 2006 Fri 08:20 pm |
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Thanks ramayan and Miss C - between your explanations I have worked out that "eder" is etmek in the aorist tense......that was all I needed to know 
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| 11. |
06 Jan 2006 Fri 09:58 pm |
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In the interests of the practice of GOOD english, I think the use of the words 'dis, dat, der' etc for this, that and the etc - is deplorable and confusing for those wonderful people who are learning Turkish and having to speak English as a second language to do it! and the same with Turkish text abbreviations 'jnm' for canim. Its ok in text messaging when you are trying to save characters, but really! Come on guys sharpen up...Yours sincerely, Lyndie Ruthless Moderator! (and grumpy school mistress kind of person!)
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| 12. |
06 Jan 2006 Fri 10:40 pm |
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Quoting Lyndie: In the interests of the practice of GOOD english, I think the use of the words 'dis, dat, der' etc for this, that and the etc - is deplorable and confusing for those wonderful people who are learning Turkish and having to speak English as a second language to do it! and the same with Turkish text abbreviations 'jnm' for canim. Its ok in text messaging when you are trying to save characters, but really! Come on guys sharpen up...Yours sincerely, Lyndie Ruthless Moderator! (and grumpy school mistress kind of person!) |
I totally agree.....
It is something that has been annoying me since I first visited these forums. The identity of any language is important and something which deserves respect and reverence. Dilution with unneccessary abbreviations or slang appalls me.
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| 13. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 01:55 am |
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Quoting bod: Quoting Lyndie: In the interests of the practice of GOOD english, I think the use of the words 'dis, dat, der' etc for this, that and the etc - is deplorable and confusing for those wonderful people who are learning Turkish and having to speak English as a second language to do it! and the same with Turkish text abbreviations 'jnm' for canim. Its ok in text messaging when you are trying to save characters, but really! Come on guys sharpen up...Yours sincerely, Lyndie Ruthless Moderator! (and grumpy school mistress kind of person!) |
I totally agree.....
It is something that has been annoying me since I first visited these forums. The identity of any language is important and something which deserves respect and reverence. Dilution with unneccessary abbreviations or slang appalls me. |
I totally agree as well. I come from northern Scotland where we slaughter the english language on a daily basis but when I try to communicate with others I try to use proper english.
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| 14. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:24 am |
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In some ways I agree, but any person who learns a language will have to face these challenges sooner or later. I live in London and all I hear is "innit, dis, dat" etc, so a person learning English as a foreign language needs to be able to recognise and understand those words, even if they don't like them.
As someone who is from "t'up North" and currently living in London, I find that down here more than anywhere people keep talking about "proper english". As a linguist I recognise that each region has its own grammar, which is neither wrong nor something to be avoided.
If someone feels like they do not understand the meaning of a word, they have the right to ask. It's part of the learning process.
So, if someone said: "Dis is cool". Someone else could ask, "What does 'dis' mean? I did not learn it in my english class" to which they would reply with "'Dis' is a slang form of the word 'this' used by ... etc etc"
My wife's school recently didn't attain the highest grade from the government inspectors, and were told that they would have attained that if all the girls spoke 'proper english'. Just because the school is multi cultural and they use words like "innit" i don't see how that lowers the grade of the school from excellent to very good, especially when the girls showed that they had excellent skills in every department (including english language/literature).
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| 15. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:44 am |
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Quoting Teanga: In some ways I agree, but any person who learns a language will have to face these challenges sooner or later. I live in London and all I hear is "innit, dis, dat" etc, so a person learning English as a foreign language needs to be able to recognise and understand those words, even if they don't like them. |
I believe it is more fundemental than a challenge to someone learning a language. I consider that it is an errosion of tradition by the native speakers of the language brought about by a combination of misguided rebellion, lack of understanding of the importance of linguistic heritage, laziness and modern 'throw away' communication methodology. The decline in use and command of language for personal expression is something I find disturbing.
It is a sad fact that, for me, the most challenging and expressive examples of my native language were not to be found within my own homeland. They were to be found in a daily newspaper within Sri Lanka, a former British Territory where a more pure and elucidated form of the language survives. It has largely not been subjected to the obnoxious degeneration caused by a desire to be 'hip' and 'cool'.
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| 16. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:51 am |
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Bravo Bod!
I think that if you encourage the use of this lazy type of language, you gradually erode the language completely. A good example was given by Teanga = the use of 'innit' has become so widespread now that it is almost an accepted part of daily language. This particular word isn't even used in the correct context. Given that 'innit' is just lazy slang for 'Isn't it?' when used for example as
'I'm going shopping tomorrow innit?' its pathetic! I think some standards have to be retained - and personally I agree with the school inspectors who think 'proper' english should be used. Try getting a job and using 'innit' 'dis' 'dat' and 'de other' at your interview!
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| 17. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:54 am |
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Quoting bod: Quoting Teanga: In some ways I agree, but any person who learns a language will have to face these challenges sooner or later. I live in London and all I hear is "innit, dis, dat" etc, so a person learning English as a foreign language needs to be able to recognise and understand those words, even if they don't like them. |
I believe it is more fundemental than a challenge to someone learning a language. I consider that it is an errosion of tradition by the native speakers of the language brought about by a combination of misguided rebellion, lack of understanding of the importance of linguistic heritage, laziness and modern 'throw away' communication methodology. The decline in use and command of language for personal expression is something I find disturbing.
It is a sad fact that, for me, the most challenging and expressive examples of my native language were not to be found within my own homeland. They were to be found in a daily newspaper within Sri Lanka, a former British Territory where a more pure and elucidated form of the language survives. It has largely not been subjected to the obnoxious degeneration caused by a desire to be 'hip' and 'cool'. |
Considering that English has been a constantly evolving language for hundreds of years, in which other languages have had huge effects on it with their "proper" and slang forms, I don't really have any problems with people being creative with it. It will always change and there has always been slang. Although I don't like certain forms of "English", I choose to accept them under the label "English".
There are more than 4000 languages spoken in the world, some are only spoken between 2 or 3 people and some die out within hours. Some tiny languages progress major languages.
What you call "rebellion and erosion of tradion" is something Chaucer and Shakespeare did, way before words such as "bling" came out.
Language doesn't progress unless someone challenges it, and no matter how weird the slang is, it always has properties of the "core" grammar behind it.
As for the "innit" example. Turkish cypriots use "degil" instead of "degil mi" like the "Turkish turks", which is more like "innit" instead of "isn't it", which "Turkish turks" are quickly adopting.
As I said, slang always has properties of the core grammar.
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| 18. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:56 am |
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Quoting Teanga: In some ways I agree, but any person who learns a language will have to face these challenges sooner or later. I live in London and all I hear is "innit, dis, dat" etc, so a person learning English as a foreign language needs to be able to recognise and understand those words, even if they don't like them.
As someone who is from "t'up North" and currently living in London, I find that down here more than anywhere people keep talking about "proper english". As a linguist I recognise that each region has its own grammar, which is neither wrong nor something to be avoided.
If someone feels like they do not understand the meaning of a word, they have the right to ask. It's part of the learning process.
So, if someone said: "Dis is cool". Someone else could ask, "What does 'dis' mean? I did not learn it in my english class" to which they would reply with "'Dis' is a slang form of the word 'this' used by ... etc etc"
My wife's school recently didn't attain the highest grade from the government inspectors, and were told that they would have attained that if all the girls spoke 'proper english'. Just because the school is multi cultural and they use words like "innit" i don't see how that lowers the grade of the school from excellent to very good, especially when the girls showed that they had excellent skills in every department (including english language/literature).
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I am the last person to criticize the mispronunciation of the english language.What I was refering to was the "text" style of "u" for you and "ur" for your etc.
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| 19. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 02:58 am |
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Well I'm afraid, I am just a sad old reactionary
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| 20. |
07 Jan 2006 Sat 03:10 am |
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Quoting Lyndie: Well I'm afraid, I am just a sad old reactionary |
Trust me, I shudder when I hear some slang as well or a region's use of grammar, but when Shakespeare first put pen to paper i'm sure a lot of people shuddered then as well.
Languages evolve, unfortunately that's all there is to it.
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