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Plural of thırd person "to be"
1.       longinotti1
1090 posts
 29 Aug 2007 Wed 10:26 am

My grammar book says to suffix "dirler" on a noun.

In a couple of recent translations.

"A and B are well" = A ve B iyiler

I thought it should be "A ve B iyidirler"

Has "dirler" become archaic?

2.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 29 Aug 2007 Wed 10:36 am

Quoting longinotti1:

My grammar book says to suffix "dirler" on a noun.

In a couple of recent translations.

"A and B are well" = A ve B iyiler

I thought it should be "A ve B iyidirler"

Has "dirler" become archaic?



In normal conversation, or notes between friends "dir" is normally omitted. In business letters or official notices you would use it. It is now like an extra formality.

Some other examples:

Greeting
normal: sevgili Ahmet (dear Ahmet)
formal: Sayın Ahmet Bey or Sayın (surname)

3rd person Singular

normal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımız (AG is our new president)
formal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımızdır.

Aorist verb: 3rd person

Normal: Burada fotokopi çekilir (Photocopies made here)
Formal: Burada fotokopi çekilmektedir


3.       longinotti1
1090 posts
 29 Aug 2007 Wed 11:00 am

Quoting MarioninTurkey:

Quoting longinotti1:

My grammar book says to suffix "dirler" on a noun.

In a couple of recent translations.

"A and B are well" = A ve B iyiler

I thought it should be "A ve B iyidirler"

Has "dirler" become archaic?



In normal conversation, or notes between friends "dir" is normally omitted. In business letters or official notices you would use it. It is now like an extra formality.

Some other examples:

Greeting
normal: sevgili Ahmet (dear Ahmet)
formal: Sayın Ahmet Bey or Sayın (surname)

3rd person Singular

normal: Abdullah Gül yeni başbakanımız (AG is our new president)
formal: Abdullah Gül yeni başbakanımızdır.

Aorist verb: 3rd person

Normal: Burada fotokopi çekilir (Photocopies made here)
Formal: Burada fotokopi çekilmektedir




İyi şeyler var. Teşekkürler

4.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 29 Aug 2007 Wed 07:48 pm

Quoting MarioninTurkey:

Quoting longinotti1:

My grammar book says to suffix "dirler" on a noun.

In a couple of recent translations.

"A and B are well" = A ve B iyiler

I thought it should be "A ve B iyidirler"

Has "dirler" become archaic?



In normal conversation, or notes between friends "dir" is normally omitted. In business letters or official notices you would use it. It is now like an extra formality.

Some other examples:

Greeting
normal: sevgili Ahmet (dear Ahmet)
formal: Sayın Ahmet Bey or Sayın (surname)

3rd person Singular

normal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımız (AG is our new president)
formal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımızdır.

Aorist verb: 3rd person

Normal: Burada fotokopi çekilir (Photocopies made here)
Formal: Burada fotokopi çekilmektedir




Good explanation. I want to add something more:

When you are talking about third person/people, and if your friend doesn't know anything about them, you may say your opinions about this third person/people by using "dir"/"dirler", even though this is not a formal conversation.

That is a common usage for dir/dirler

Ahmet ve Mehmet iyi çocuklardır, yaramazlık yapmazlar
Ahmet and Mehmet are good kids, they don't behave naughtily.

Burak iyi bir arkadaştır, onu yakından tanırım.
Burak is a good friend, I know him closely.

5.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 02 Sep 2007 Sun 08:15 am

Salve longinotti,

I just wanted to add a few things on the use of -dir in Turkish. Although it may appear as archaic, it is actually very much alive and commonly used by native speakers to indicate subtle meanings. Some examples would be as below:

- Naber Mete? Nasilsin? / What's up, Mete? How is it going?
- Iyi+dir be abi. Ne olsun? Takiliyoruz ishte. / Not too bad, bro. Just chilling.

Although the above dialogue is clearly slang, it can be commonly heard, and the specific use of -dir in this case is purely idiomatic. Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut grammar rule to help the non-native speaker understand the logic behind a construction, such as 'iyidir be abi'.

Here is another slang dialogue:

- Vay, capkin, ne oluyor orda? Keyifler nasil? Iyisin+dir insallah? / Oohh, what's up player? What's happening over there? Hope you are being good.

Iyisindir insallah is also a purely idiomatic formation like the previous example. The unclusion of -dir is purely arbitrary and is more of a matter of style rather than grammar rule.

Let's look at some other examples.

- Kapiyi kim caliyor? / Who is at the door?
- Bilmiyorum. Git bir bak, belki baban+dir. / I don't know. Go have a look. Maybe it is your father.
- Kim+dir? Kim+dir? /Who?
- Baban+dir kizim baban+dir. Benim ellerim yagli. Sen git bir bakiver. Your father! I'm saying maybe it is your father. My hands are greasy. Go have a look.

The above conversation is neither formal nor slang, but is colloquial. As I mentioned before, it is quite diffuclt for a non-native student to grasp the logic of illogicality, and I regret to say that I have no idea why kim/who and baban/your father both take -dir. Strangely, babandir could also be babanlardir in the pulral form referring possibly to a father and some other related people all of whom are being referred to as 'babanlardir'.

- Eminim dedikleri kadar guzel+dir. / I am sure it is as beautiful as they say it is.

- Umarim dedikleri kadar guzel+dir+ler / I hope they are as beautiful as they say they are.

Here is another example. Let's assume that an old friend asks you about your girlfriend Nazli.

- Eee, Nazli nasil? / So, how is Nazli doing?
- Iyidir herhalde, bilmiyorum. Biz iki ay evvel ayrildik. / Fine, I suppose. We broke up two months ago.

Strangely, the question doesn't say 'nasil+dir', but the answer is iyi+dir. As you can see in all these daily use examples, the grammar rules are hardly ever applied in a coherent way.

6.       Elisa
0 posts
 02 Sep 2007 Sun 01:02 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:

As you can see in all these daily use examples, the grammar rules are hardly ever applied in a coherent way.



according to me your examples of using -dir have everything to do with tahmin etmek, guessing, doubt..

With verbs like "sanmak, ummak"... and words like "mutlaka, herhalde..", it's normal to add -dir.

Some more examples:
- Sen İtalyansın, mutlaka makarna seviyorsundur
- Yemek bir saattir ocakta, herhalde pişmiştir

Marion and Caliptrix' examples were about using -dir for making official statements, or giving information/facts about something or someone. No doubt there at all, but another use of -dir.
Nice to see you again btw Caliptrix

Anyway, correct me if I wrong, but that's how I understood it

7.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Sep 2007 Sun 01:27 pm

Quote:

- Naber Mete? Nasilsin? / What's up, Mete? How is it going?
- Iyi+dir be abi. Ne olsun? Takiliyoruz ishte. / Not too bad, bro. Just chilling.


One time "iyidir" was my standard answer to "naber? nasılsın?". I used to say it without thinking at all when I heard the question.

At one time in the past I thought about it that it was not a good answer.

Now I have managed to drop its usage. I never use it at all anymore.

8.       longinotti1
1090 posts
 03 Sep 2007 Mon 11:29 pm

Quoting caliptrix:

Quoting MarioninTurkey:

Quoting longinotti1:

My grammar book says to suffix "dirler" on a noun.

In a couple of recent translations.

"A and B are well" = A ve B iyiler

I thought it should be "A ve B iyidirler"

Has "dirler" become archaic?



In normal conversation, or notes between friends "dir" is normally omitted. In business letters or official notices you would use it. It is now like an extra formality.

Some other examples:

Greeting
normal: sevgili Ahmet (dear Ahmet)
formal: Sayın Ahmet Bey or Sayın (surname)

3rd person Singular

normal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımız (AG is our new president)
formal: Abdullah Gül yeni Cumhurbaşkanımızdır.

Aorist verb: 3rd person

Normal: Burada fotokopi çekilir (Photocopies made here)
Formal: Burada fotokopi çekilmektedir




Good explanation. I want to add something more:

When you are talking about third person/people, and if your friend doesn't know anything about them, you may say your opinions about this third person/people by using "dir"/"dirler", even though this is not a formal conversation.

That is a common usage for dir/dirler

Ahmet ve Mehmet iyi çocuklardır, yaramazlık yapmazlar
Ahmet and Mehmet are good kids, they don't behave naughtily.

Burak iyi bir arkadaştır, onu yakından tanırım.
Burak is a good friend, I know him closely.



Bunu ve başka yardımını için, Teşekkür ederim.

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