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LAPPS IN SWEDEN
(29 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
[1] 2 3
1.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 02:41 am

Sweeden Parliment has recently voted and passed a legislation, accepting Armenians in Anatolia sufferded genocide by the Ottoman Empire.

 

What Ottomans did in 1915 was what any sovereign state would have done to handle part of her uprising citizens, while the country was at war with others.  Amenians rebelled, some in fact joined French and Russian Armies and tried to carve a large piece out of the Empire 1n 1915, exactly while the Turkish Army was facing British-French-Anzac Naval and land forces in Gallipoli. Anatolia was in total despair, but rebelling Armenians (not all Armenians) nevertheless were handled exactly as rebels deserved.

 

What exactly Sweeden and Norway doing between 1900-1940, before they decided to become human rights champions, is another story. In cold blood, they took their time to cleance the lives and culture of an other totally innocent etnic group.

 

Google is full of references to Sweeden´s own massacre of Lapps (SAMIs), but those interested to learn more about the issue can start by reading up 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people



Edited (4/3/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/3/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/3/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/3/2010) by catwoman [removed blank space]

2.       alameda
3499 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 03:56 am

I agree with you Alpha...mostly anyway....it just shows how history is recorded by the ones with the pens and the network to distribute it.

 

I hate all wars, and think they are all some type of genocide. Until all wars are recognized as such....nobody has anything to say about it.  IMHO

 

Some cultures have war ethics, some do not. I think the disparity between different ethics of warfare is the issue.

 

Too often the noncombatants are the most harmed by war.

3.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 10:46 am

So what is your point Alfa? That because Sweden did something bad in their past they are not allowed to say that Ottomans committed a genocide? {#emotions_dlg.unsure}

4.       si++
3785 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 11:40 am

 

Quoting catwoman

So what is your point Alfa? That because Sweden did something bad in their past they are not allowed to say that Ottomans committed a genocide? {#emotions_dlg.unsure}

 

So you think Ottomans committed genocide? What do you mean by"genocide"? Do you use the UN´s 1948 definition or do you have another definition of your own? In the latter case can you share your definition with us and how can what Ottomans did be qualified as "genocide" according to your own definition? Do you know what Ottomans did in the first place? And why did they do it? Can you share what you know with us?

5.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 01:30 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

So what is your point Alfa? That because Sweden did something bad in their past they are not allowed to say that Ottomans committed a genocide? {#emotions_dlg.unsure}

 

Basically, yes...

 

History records an era where all sovereign cultures tried to supress minorities to achieve a uniform culture within their state.....Almost all, except the Ottomans; Ottomans fought against rebels..it would have made little difference if the rebels were of Turkish etnic origin.

 

Now there is no more the old Empire. The young Turkish Republic is trying to mend the relations with her smaller and much poorer neighbor Armenia...Such buggers as Sweedes, with fresh Lapp blood on their hands are trying to teach the Turks humanity and human rights...That is hypocracy.

 

Do you ever ask yourself why American Senate does not pass a legislation recognizing Swede massacre of Lapps, or Sweeds never talk about American genocide of American natives?

 



Edited (4/3/2010) by AlphaF

6.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 Apr 2010 Sat 03:16 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

Do you ever ask yourself why American Senate does not pass a legislation recognizing Swede massacre of Lapps, or Sweeds never talk about American genocide of American natives?

 

Yes, I am guessing that the reason is that these countries are not denying those shameful events.. of course another reason is that Native Americans are exterminated, so they can´t go and lobby for their cause! I don´t know about Sweden, but I know that the US is hypocritical talking about other countries´ genocides while actively commiting their own.. it´s despicable.. but makes other countries´ genocides no less despicable.

 

Alfa, you know what is the worst part of nationalism, is that it makes people care more about their imaginary ideas then about real people that could be you and your family.

 

It is a good thing that Turkey is working on improving his relationships with neighboring countries, very positive development.

7.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 04 Apr 2010 Sun 04:06 am

Catwoman,

You are talking in subjects you have no clue about. This has nothing to do with nationalism. Turks and Armenians were subjects of the same Empire. There were Armenian ministers in the Ottoman Cabinet in 1915, and some Armenian boys were fighting agains the allied Navy in Gallipoli, along with their Turkish, Bosnian or Kurdish fellow Ottomans.

 

Another part of the Armenian community however, felt it was a good time for an uprising against the weakened Empire  (not specifically against Turks, Bosnians or Kurds...the Empire). It was the fashion of the time and well prepared Greeks and Bulgarians had previous success against the Ottomans. But Armenian were neither well prepared nor did they have the full control of the area they claimed to be theirs. They were encouraged by French clowns at first, then dismally abandoned to the mercy of the Empire,when things got rough. In short they lost a mismanaged rebellion and got what they deserved. The Empire would have been no more tolerant, had the rebels been of Turkish origin. Still the Ottomans tried the state officials involved, and many were punished for overzealousy, some with capital punisment.More officials were later tried by the Brits in the island of Malta with alleged war crimes ; theyall had to be aquited, with no exception - even in that circus court.

 

What eventually happened to the Empire? In 1919 another rebellion, this time led by Turks started. The Empire showed exactly the same reflexes; Ottoman armies were sent to hunt down the rebellious Turks, including Ataturk the founder of modern Turkia. But the young Turks not only kicked out the invading allies, but also the Ottoman Sultan from the country and set up a Republic.(There were some Armenians who fought along with the Turks, in this war of independence).

 

Empire is no more and citizens of Turkish and Armenian origin enjoy equal right and priviledges of being the citizens of the young republic. Republic of Armenia is a small relatvely poor  neighbor country. Both Turkia and Armenia need friendly relations, but Armenia is the party that needs this cooperation more. If it was not for  stupid acts of Western powers, such a cooperation may have been possible... as it is, it is not very likely in near future. 

 

Natives of America could not manage to survive a 100 years against Western brutality. Armenians and Turks lived in the same Empire for over 800 years together. Had Turks wanted to clean up the Armenian population and culture, who do you think stopped them at the peaks of Ottoman power?

 

You can now tell me what you think my imaginary ideas are....

 

 

 

 



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Edited (4/4/2010) by AlphaF
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Edited (4/4/2010) by AlphaF

8.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 04 Apr 2010 Sun 06:09 pm

 

Quoting AlphaF

 

 

Basically, yes...

 

History records an era where all sovereign cultures tried to supress minorities to achieve a uniform culture within their state.....Almost all, except the Ottomans; Ottomans fought against rebels..it would have made little difference if the rebels were of Turkish etnic origin.

 

Now there is no more the old Empire. The young Turkish Republic is trying to mend the relations with her smaller and much poorer neighbor Armenia...Such buggers as Sweedes, with fresh Lapp blood on their hands are trying to teach the Turks humanity and human rights...That is hypocracy.

 

Do you ever ask yourself why American Senate does not pass a legislation recognizing Swede massacre of Lapps, or Sweeds never talk about American genocide of American natives?

 

 

 

You are all wrong ofcourse... I think the latest Turkish official position is that yes, they killed a bunch of people then, a lot of them being Armenians. But ofcourse most Armenians died of sickness, the flu and stuff...

 

The American Senate has already acknowledged that the states of America commited genocide. THAT is why there is no discussion about it, because they don´t pretend that it never happened. They admit for example, that Native Americans were even made sick on purpose. They admit their horrible acts, whereas Turkey didn´t. That is why Sweden doesn´t have to say anything to the U.S., and it does make a statement towards Turkey (who wants to join Sweden in the E.U.).

 

And the Sami people have been repressed by Sweden in the past, but not systematically whiped out and killed like they were in Norway. A repression of culture is not genocide... Killing people is genocide. If you want to accuse Sweden of something, then make sure you accuse them of something that you have prove of. You are even linking to something that says that Sweden didn´t systematically kill Sami people. The point you tried to make is totally void.

9.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Apr 2010 Sun 06:43 pm

Alfa, you didn´t understand my point.. I meant that your blind defense of the "image" of Turkey, by denying the genocide at all cost stems out of your nationalism, not that the murder of Armenians was a result of nationalism.. and you´re doing this at the cost of your humanity, which is really disgusting.

10.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 04 Apr 2010 Sun 11:38 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

Alfa, you didn´t understand my point.. I meant that your blind defense of the "image" of Turkey, by denying the genocide at all cost stems out of your nationalism, not that the murder of Armenians was a result of nationalism.. and you´re doing this at the cost of your humanity, which is really disgusting.

The history is very simple. The Ottomans killed some Armenians and caused some to die of sickness and possibly hunger ...yes !

 

But this did not happen when Turks first arrived at Anatolia ( like Europeans butchered American natives within 100 years of their arrival) or (like Germans when Jews started dominating their economy) or like (Italians in Algeria and French in Eithopia simply to continue their tyrany) or like (Sweeds,. simply because they were bored and wanted pure blood citizens in their country) In none of these cases the supressors ever shared sovereignity of the land with the people they massacred.

 

In Ottoman Empire. Turks and Armenians lived together for 800 years, in peace. There were times Armenians could have been cleaned out overnight. if that had been the Imperial intention. What you dont want to understand (possibly  because you have Armenian origins, and have a personal grief over the issue) is that the problem started when a part of the Armenian population rebelled against the Empire ( for welfare of which they were equally responsible. like any other ethnic group that made up the Empire), donned French and Russian Army uniforms and betrayed their own country. The rest of the Empire was fighting for its life in Gallipoli, at the time of this Armenian betrayal, for god´s sake  !

 

Rebelling Armenians definitely got what they deserved; they were not the first losing rebels in history...but they definitely are the only crying one.

 

The Russian records are open to verify my statement, and France is full of Armenian Memorials listing names of soldiers who lost their lives in Anatolia, in French uniform. Most of the names listed in those memorials have birthplaces in what was the Ottoman Empire, then.

 

I am telling you that Empire later court martialled some officers of the Empire - not for for killing rebellious Armenian gunmen, but causing perhaps unnecessary misery to some of the civilian  Armenians who lived in the area - some of those officers were found guilty and some even were punished with capital punisment. No Armenians other than those living in the area of rebellion or on critical supply routes to that area, suffered.

 

The next rebellion against the Empire was by Turks...which eventually ended up the Empire. The young Turkish Republic  does not carry any hatred or grudge towards the previous rebels, but has no intention of apologizing for what previous losing rebels suffered in the hands of a (now) non existent Empire either.

 

The choice for Republics of Turkia and Armenia, the two neighbor countries, now is to understand and acccept the history as it really was, forget past griefs and cooperate towards mutual welfare...or take advice from cold blooded murderers of the West and carry on with a totaly meaningles vendetta...

 

Turkia does not need me to protect her image - but I, as an intellectual, have every right to question the integrity and the credibility of those faceless accusers of Turkia...

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited (4/5/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/5/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/5/2010) by AlphaF

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