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olduğu vs olması??
(13 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       Spionen
2 posts
 18 Sep 2011 Sun 09:04 pm

I have trouble distinguishing these. Not only with olmak, but the usage of the two forms in general. I understand that the -dik form is an adjective, describing a noun (such as "en sevdiğim renk" -- "my most-loved color") while the short infinitive + endings is a noun (as in "gitmem gerek" --- "my going is necessary"), but in practice... I don´t always know which one to use.

For example, in a sentence like "nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum", what´s the noun being referred to? Is it like "I don´t know its where-being place" with "place" implied?

I guess I understand in principle... but any further explanation that could clear it up any further for me would be very welcome! Thanks in advance

2.       gokuyum
5043 posts
 18 Sep 2011 Sun 11:56 pm

 

Quoting Spionen

I have trouble distinguishing these. Not only with olmak, but the usage of the two forms in general. I understand that the -dik form is an adjective, describing a noun (such as "en sevdiğim renk" -- "my most-loved color") while the short infinitive + endings is a noun (as in "gitmem gerek" --- "my going is necessary"), but in practice... I don´t always know which one to use.

For example, in a sentence like "nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum", what´s the noun being referred to? Is it like "I don´t know its where-being place" with "place" implied?

I guess I understand in principle... but any further explanation that could clear it up any further for me would be very welcome! Thanks in advance

As you said "dik" makes verbs adjectives.

Ex: beklenmedik sonuç unexpected result

But sometimes we use adjectives as verbal nouns.

Ex: Gittiğini söylemedi. He didn´t say that he had gone.

 

 

(Onun) Hasta  olduğunu duymadım. Actually there is a hidden onun (his) in this sentence. And "onun" and "olduğunu" are members of a noun phrase.

 

 We use "dik" suffix to create adjectives or verbal nouns in past tense. This is the most important point.

 

Ex: Koştuğunu gördüm. (past tense). I saw that you ran.

 

But when predicate is  present tense, the verbal noun sometimes gains a present tense meaning.

 

Ex: Koştuğunu görüyorum. (present tense) I see that you run.

 

 



Edited (9/19/2011) by gokuyum

Lololooo and sashk liked this message
3.       ykalay
14 posts
 19 Sep 2011 Mon 04:59 am

Quote:

nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum

"nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum" Here, there are two meanings.

1. If the suffix is olduğun-u, then; I don´t know where your are.

olduğun: (your being)

Clearly it is "senin nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum" 

 

2. If the suffix is olduğu-(n)-u, then, I don´t know where he/she/it is.

olduğu: (her/his/its being)

Onun nerede olduğu-(n)-u bilmiyorum.

Ex. Kitabın nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum.

4.       si++
3785 posts
 19 Sep 2011 Mon 01:23 pm

 

Quoting Spionen

I have trouble distinguishing these. Not only with olmak, but the usage of the two forms in general. I understand that the -dik form is an adjective, describing a noun (such as "en sevdiğim renk" -- "my most-loved color") while the short infinitive + endings is a noun (as in "gitmem gerek" --- "my going is necessary"), but in practice... I don´t always know which one to use.

For example, in a sentence like "nerede olduğunu bilmiyorum", what´s the noun being referred to? Is it like "I don´t know its where-being place" with "place" implied?

I guess I understand in principle... but any further explanation that could clear it up any further for me would be very welcome! Thanks in advance

 

Yes the place is implied.

Nerede olduğu = Where he/she is

Nerede olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know where he/she is.

 

When there is wh-word:

Ne olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know what he/she/it is.

Ne olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know what happened.

Kim olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know who he/she is.

Ne zaman olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know what time it is.

Nasıl olduğu-nu bilmiyorum = I don´t know how he/she/it is.

 

And when there is no word being referred to, you may think it as "(the fact) that ...":

Hasta olduğu-nu bilmiyordum = I didn´t know that he/she was ill.

Hasta olduğu bilinmiyordu = it was not known that he/she was ill.= (lit) (the fact) that he/she was ill was not known.

 

Pahalı olduğu belli = It´s obvious that ıt is expensive.= (lit) (the fact) that it is expensive is obvious

 

Pahalı olduğu-nu biliyorum = I know that ıt is expensive. 

 

etc.

 

 

 

 

5.       Abla
3642 posts
 25 Sep 2011 Sun 10:31 am

I always had trouble in choosing whether to use infinitive or participle in an inlayed sentence. It has helped me to understand that using the infinitive includes a meaning of manipulation whereas personal -dik-/-ecek-participles are used in statements. My grammar book gives an example

         Çocuklara aşağıya inip kendisini sokakta beklemelerini söyledi. ´She told the children

         to go downstairs and wait for her in the street.´

If it was beklediklerini, the meaning would be ´She told the children that they went down and waited for her in the street. It´s reporting, no more a command.

6.       newquaker
28 posts
 25 Sep 2011 Sun 12:33 pm

Hi,

 

The 4th answer by "Si++" seemed to be the most appropriate to me, but I also want to contribute with my own thoughts...

 

There are a few points, you should consider here...First of all,

 

a) Turkish language has this strange habit of using "past tense" with adjective forms regardless of the tense they refer to (except for future cases). For example,

Sevdigim adam = The man I love

 

So, in spite of the past "-di" suffix, it usually refers to a general case (aorist tense, or simple present). But it can very well refer to the past tense.

 

Gordugum adam = The man I saw

 

Such connotations are understood from the context but can still be clarified with additional details or a higher level tense. For example,

 

Sevmis oldugum adam = The man I (had) loved, or

Onceden sevdigim adam = The man who I´d loved before

 

b) Using the "-digi" form, as in "oldugu", requires you

 

  i) to convert the tense into past if not already,

  ii) put the verb before the noun (reorder the sentence, as in an adjective clause)

  iii) add "-gi) suffix between the tense suffix (-di) and the personal suffix (like -m).

 

  The ending result would be "gordugum, gordugun, gordugu etc...). This structure essentially implies "noun who/which/where/when subject (I/you/he etc) verb"

Examples :

  Araba aldim = I bought a car 

  Aldigim araba = The car (which) I bought  (put "gi" as in aldi-gi-m, and rearrange)

 

O kizi seviyorum = I love that girl

Sevdigim kiz = The girl I love (Change seviyorum to sevdim, put gi in between, rearrange)

 

c) Turkish also has "to be verb", simply "olmak", which also complies with the past tense rules stated above. When used as an adjective, the to be verb must be changed to the past tense.

 

  Examples

  Diyorum ki, "Sen cok guzelsin". =>  I say, "You are so beautiful".

  Cok guzel oldugunu soyluyorum. => I´m telling you that you are so beautiful

 

The second sentence uses the adjective form, so it has to comply with all the rules above. 

- First the "to be" verb suffix "-sin" changes to the past form "oldun".

- Second, the -gi suffix is added in between "du" and "n" (with vowel harmony in action), ending up with "oldugun".

- So the phrase "cok guzel oldugun" means "that you are so beautiful". It needs the "-i" suffix to indicate the "direct object" (becomes -u here).

 

The to be verb is a bit tricky in Turkish. Check this out,

Cok guzelsin =>  You are so beautiful

Cok guzeldin => You were so beautiful.

 

Funny thing is that, the "olmak" verb is hidden there (just like the to be verb would be). However, when you want to phrase it as above, you have to use it to enable the usage of suffix (-gi). Otherwise, the compare the two sentences

 

Cok guzel oldugun => That you are/were so beautiful

Cok guzel oldun => You´ve become so beautiful (not you were so beatiful)

 

d) The gerund form (such as "olma, olmasi, olmam" etc) is used in certain other situations.

 

I would suggest you think simple to better understand Turkish. It´s extremely logical but also simple (not necessarily easy!). The same principle applies here.

 

- if you can easily rephrase the sentence with "that" (without further manipulation), use the "-gi" phrase (like oldugu), generally the noun clauses as secondary sentences.

- if it is the primary sentence and/or cannot be manipulated by "that" or another clause instrument like "what/which/what/who" etc, then you use the gerund form, as in "olmasi".

 

Examples:

You need to come tomorrow => Yarin gelmen gerekiyor. (no clause instrument!)

Ne oldugunu bilmiyorum => I don´t know what happened (note the "what").

I didn´t know that I needed to come => Gelmem gerektigini bilmiyordum.

 

Note that, in the third sentence, the part with "that" is translated using "gerektigi" (that I needed) while the primary part of the sentence "gelmem gerekiyor", I need to come, is translated using gerund.

 

Last, please don´t think

"en sevdiğim renk" as "my most-loved color", but rather as "the color that I like the most"

Because, look at that example...

 

En cok, bu rengi severim.  => I like this color the most (literal, just upside down!)

En cok sevdigim renk => The color that I like the most (literal, just reordered for adj.)

 

As you see, it also complies with the rules I´d mentioned. Transform to past tense and integrate ´-gi" (meaning "that"), and put it before the noun. that´s it.

 

In short, For better understanding of Turkish, think simple and Turkish!



Edited (9/25/2011) by newquaker
Edited (9/25/2011) by newquaker [typo]

Lololooo, nemanjasrb, Irfaan13 and seanthegutsy liked this message
7.       Abla
3642 posts
 25 Sep 2011 Sun 08:18 pm

It is somewhat confusing to the learner that -dik-participle is so dependent of the predicate what comes to tense. It makes me wonder the role of -miş-participle which seems to be pushed into a very small corner of pluperfect. I understand even the hearsay meaning concerns only finite forms of the -miş-tense.

Some authors call the -dik-participle the object participle. Taking the risk of being the only one who doesn´t understand I ask object to what. Where is the governing relation which they refer to?

Thinking simple I think is a good advice for understanding the many uses of -dik-participle. If you go too deep into it you soon begin to see ambiguities everywhere. Thanks for the explanation, newquaker.

8.       si++
3785 posts
 26 Sep 2011 Mon 10:26 am

What we call "-dili geçmiş zaman" (-di past tense) is actually a non-future tense (there is such a linguistic term right?). It spans from the present time (an action just has happened) to anytime in the past.

Berke şimdi içeri girdi. = Berke has just come in. (present time)

Berke hiç okula gitmedi = Berke never went to school. (Sometime in the past)

Berke uzun zamandır aramadı = Berke didn´t call for a long time (A period of time sometime in the past and present time)

 

Maybe probably because of that Turkish hasn´t developed different participles for present and past.

 

So -dik partciple can be used non-future times.

 

Berkenin şimdi içeri girdiğini gördüm = I have seen that Berke has just come in. (completed action)

Berkenin içeri girdiğini görüyorum = I see that Berke is coming in. (still continuing action)

Berkenin hiç okula gitmediğini biliyorum. = I know that Berke never went to school.

Berkenin uzun zamandır aramadığını bilmiyordum. = I didn´t know that Berke didn´t call for a long time.

 

 

-dik can even be used for the future where present continuous tense is used for future.

Berke yarın İzmir´e gidiyor. = Berke is going to İzmir tomorrow.

Berke´nin yarın İzmir´e gittiğini biliyorum. = I know (the fact) that Berke is going to İzmir tomorrow.

9.       Abla
3642 posts
 26 Sep 2011 Mon 10:38 am

So, you are saying that -dik-participle can denote anything but future (and even future in certain circumstances). Hmm, I didn´t know the English term non-future but I guess I know what you mean. But finite di-past always refers to the past, doesn´t it?

10.       si++
3785 posts
 26 Sep 2011 Mon 11:03 am

 

Quoting Abla

So, you are saying that -dik-participle can denote anything but future (and even future in certain circumstances). Hmm, I didn´t know the English term non-future but I guess I know what you mean. But finite di-past always refers to the past, doesn´t it?

 

If you consider an action that has just been done/completed as "past" then yes it refers to the "past". Turkish doesn´t have different tenses for past and present perfect as in English (and other IE languges). -di past covers both.

 

Also consider this:

It´s a limited usage but sometimes somebody may use it for an uncompleted but about-to-be-completed action):

Ben gittim = I will have gone soon or I am about to go. (I haven´t yet but will have shortly)

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