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10.       Abla
3647 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 05:12 pm

3rd person imperative is widely used in Turkish. It surprises me sometimes to find it in innovative places like wishes. Maybe it´s influence of religious language. Just a guess. In prayers, for instance, the speaker kind of takes a position above the state of affairs and tries to affect how things are going. In my language it is a very archaic, almost dead form which you can only find in religious speech.

Eğer is maybe not needed (thanks for your comment, scalpel, you always bring up something new even if the subject is many times repeated) but it may act as a warning: a condition is about to come. It gives the speaker time to think and form his sentence. There is not too much time to think when you speak Turkish, believe me, everything has to be well sorted out, and without these small breaks the flow of language might be too hasty. Look at your example: it takes me half an hour to analyse the morphology and understand it. What if I didn´t read it but heard it?

Language has a history, a structure and a logic. That´s what we are interested in. But from the grass root level speech is linear. Words follow each other and certain choices lead into other choices. That´s why these conversational turnouts are needed.

11.       scalpel
1472 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 06:14 pm

 

Quoting si++

I have recently noticed that -sin suffix can be used for condition.

 

Gene gelsin, gene kovarım. = If he/she comes (here) again, I will drive him/her away again.

or should he/she come again, I would drive him/her away again.

 

Hele bir gelmesin, ne yapacağımı ben bilirim = If he/she doesn´t come (here), I know what to do (about it)

 

etc.

 

A new thing for advanced learners...

I think it has something to do with optatives (for 1st person) and imperatives in gene... gene... and hele bir ...  patterns (and maybe with some others):

gene geleyim, gene kovar

gene gel, gene kovar

gene gelsin, gene kovar

gene gelelim, gene kovar

gene gelin, gene kovar

gene gelsinler, gene kovar

 

hele bir gelmeyeyim...

hele bir gelme ...

hele bir gelmesin ...

etc.

 

nifrtity liked this message
12.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 06:52 pm

 

Quoting scalpel

 

 

A new thing for advanced learners...

I think it has something to do with optatives (for 1st person) and imperatives in gene... gene... and hele bir ...  patterns (and maybe with some others):

gene geleyim, gene kovar

gene gel, gene kovar

gene gelsin, gene kovar

gene gelelim, gene kovar

gene gelin, gene kovar

gene gelsinler, gene kovar

 

hele bir gelmeyeyim...

hele bir gelme ...

hele bir gelmesin ...

etc.

 

 

Another possibility for condition using "mi" question particle:

Gene mi geldi, gene (onu) kovarım = Had/should he come again, I drive him away

Gene mi geldiniz, gene (sizi) kovarım = Should you come again, I drive you away again

 

Beceremedi mi, kov gitsin. = Should he fail, fire him.

yakaladın mı, bırakma. = Should you capture it, don´t let it escape

 

etc.

 

13.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 06:57 pm

 

Quoting Abla

3rd person imperative is widely used in Turkish. It surprises me sometimes to find it in innovative places like wishes. Maybe it´s influence of religious language. Just a guess. In prayers, for instance, the speaker kind of takes a position above the state of affairs and tries to affect how things are going. In my language it is a very archaic, almost dead form which you can only find in religious speech.

Eğer is maybe not needed (thanks for your comment, scalpel, you always bring up something new even if the subject is many times repeated) but it may act as a warning: a condition is about to come. It gives the speaker time to think and form his sentence. There is not too much time to think when you speak Turkish, believe me, everything has to be well sorted out, and without these small breaks the flow of language might be too hasty. Look at your example: it takes me half an hour to analyse the morphology and understand it. What if I didn´t read it but heard it?

Language has a history, a structure and a logic. That´s what we are interested in. But from the grass root level speech is linear. Words follow each other and certain choices lead into other choices. That´s why these conversational turnouts are needed.

 

It´s like we do it without thinking but sometimes we unconsciously change the order of suffixes (you already have said something but your ear doesn´t like what it hears) and at that moment your brain warns you that here is something wrong with the order.

14.       scalpel
1472 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 07:32 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

Eğer is maybe not needed (thanks for your comment, scalpel, you always bring up something new even if the subject is many times repeated) but it may act as a warning: a condition is about to come. It gives the speaker time to think and form his sentence. There is not too much time to think when you speak Turkish, believe me, everything has to be well sorted out, and without these small breaks the flow of language might be too hasty. Look at your example: it takes me half an hour to analyse the morphology and understand it. What if I didn´t read it but heard it?

 

 

If A cannot live without B whereas B can live without A, A is a parasite => Eğer is a parasite.. and as parasites are everywhere despite we do our best to get rid of them, we should know how to live with instead of complaining about them=> you are right. 

Anyway, I am not bringing up something new and suspicious, but something true. Tunci wants me to help learners more.. Why would I do, if my help was always taken as a something new and suspicious because they are not always the same as what you are used to hear?.

 

 

 

15.       Abla
3647 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 08:03 pm

I am surprised. Obviously I cannot put my words. I tried to say something nice. And true. I don´t know if it makes you feel better but what was in my mind was this: if anyone tries the search he will find dozens of threads with the same openings, some of them full of detailed information and examples, some of them given as a first aid for a learner in an acute trouble. If someone like you, scalpel, succeed in bringing into the thread a new approach to this old (and complicated) issue I warmly welcome it.

Now everyone thinks how come she says this, she doesn´t know the basics even. True. But I like to read about and discuss issues which are above my level. It´s like the cream over the cake. Fortunately I have been able to do it here on many occasions.

I agree with tunci, if you have the energy and the time you should work more with learners. You are exactly the right person for it. Sometimes it is the basic salt and bread but sometimes there may be some high moments, too.

Why are you so angry with eğer? It´s only a word, you know.

16.       scalpel
1472 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 08:32 pm

No, I am not angry. Did I sound angry? If so, I am sorry. And this proves I can´t command English well. I used you, but I didn´t address you at all. You referred to most of the learners not you particularly... believe me, I really wanted to say something in general... but failed... sorry... I think I should go back to the chatroom instead of annoying people here  

 

   



Edited (11/18/2011) by scalpel

17.       Abla
3647 posts
 18 Nov 2011 Fri 08:40 pm

Well, you quoted me. That´s why. And I understand you were talking in general. Anyway, I made my point (which I had actually thought of for a long time). Read it or don´t.

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