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To and from
1.       Donkeyoaty
105 posts
 19 Nov 2011 Sat 09:38 pm

An area I always have difficulty with is establishing in what situations the Turks say "to" and "from" (in Turkish)

For instance;

Kitabimi, televizyon ile radyonun arasina koydum

translates as

I put my book between the television and the radio. Arasina translates here as "to between"

This highlights the action of the movement towards, in putting the book between the radio and the television. I can understand the reason for this .

However in the sentence

Araba aramizdan gecti (N.B. sorry can´t get dots to work)

This translates as;

The car passed between us. Literally translates as the car passed from between us.

Aramizdan´ rather than what I would expect aramizda. Could someone explain the rule here.

I can only think it is something to do with the car not being still there and moving away "from" us , but what about if "the car is passing between us"? (present tense)

would this be ........Araba aramizda geciyor ?

Hope I havn´t made this too confusing!

I would be grateful for any comments

 

2.       Hallederiz
136 posts
 20 Nov 2011 Sun 02:07 am

Actually I don´t know the rule, but I will try to explain.

it must be related to the verb. Geçmek is always with --den/dan suffix. (from)

Gelmek is the same.

 

For the first instance,

"Kitabimi, televizyon ile radyonun arasina koydum"

"Ara" means gap or distance or a place between two object. It is a place.

The gap is a noun and belongs to the radio and  the tv. We can think like this;

I put my book to the space of the tv and the radio.

televizyon ile radyonun arasi => Ara + sı means the space of the tv and the book (), In Turkish, this rule might be "Belirtili isim tamlaması." (possesive case).

Arası + na => "na" means "at"/in/to". it is a preposition.

 

It is the same for the other sentences. Lets practise again.

"Araba aramizdan gecti"

it is like that "The car passed the space where belongs to us." or simply "The car passed in our gap or our place between us. Here the is the same rule.

 

Maybe, you ask what you should use, --e/a or --den/dan. (at/in/to or from).

I would think this situation, which one is important in the sentence; Distance or Beginning.

at that present, where is the object, at destination or beginning? In the first instance, we put the book between the radio and the tv. We are interested in the destination. The book´s final place is important. "---a/e" (at/to/in) is likely the right choice.

For the second instance, we are not interested in where the car go to. We saw it when it was passing so the beginning is at between us. We use here den/dan. It´s question is "Araba nereden geçti" the suffix of question is "den/dan" so the suffix of answer is "den/dan" (from)

for your last question.

"The car is passing between us" must be translated like this  "Araba aramızdan geçiyor."

geçmek is always with "--den/dan". if it stops between us, the -destination will be at between us and we will use "Araba aramızda duruyor"

The verb is important for the preposition.

Your mind must be more confused. I hope  the masters explain much better. I suffer lack of English.

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3.       Abla
3647 posts
 20 Nov 2011 Sun 07:43 am

In addition to Halledeniz’s detailed explanation let me tell you my own practical approach to problems like this. (I’m just a learner, though, you remember.)

Every verb that governs noun phrases demands a certain case for them. This is basic dictionary information. Often the case government is logical: ev|e gidiyorum (movement towards). Often it isn’t. There may be historical reasons for a certain choice which the speakers cannot restore any more. Natives will tell you it is just this way and it has always been like this.

geçmek is a verb with many meanings. www.turkishdictionary.net lists 38 of them. geçmek governs at least nouns which take accusative, dative and ablative cases. A verb like this is like an overloaded function: it has unrelated meanings that differ only by the case that is used in the noun that it governs.

Suppose we are looking for a verb equivalent to the English ‘pass’. This is the information that we will find:

Quote:www.turkishdictionary.net

geçmek
1. to pass.
2. /dan/ to pass by, go by.
3. /dan/ to pass through, go through.
4. /dan/ to go down (a street, road, corridor).
5. /dan/ to pass over, cross, traverse......etc.

The best way for a learner to manage with case governing problems is to take the information just as it is given and not to ask too many questions. The reasons for a certain choice are always different. So, my advice is to take full advantage of the dictionary and always to check when you deal with a new verb.

Problems of case governing of course concern especially those languages where cases have an important role in the grammar. But similarly, those of us who don’t speak English as their mother tongue have to learn certain preposition rules by heart. For instance, it is not obvious for me for instance that we believe in something or apply for something. I just had to learn it when I studied the verb itself.

Henry liked this message
4.       Henry
2604 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 02:03 am

I just wanted to add another learner´s perspective. Sometimes you can apply logic from an English language viewpoint, and sometimes you have to just use the dictionary and accept it as so.

Korkmak = to fear, to be afraid of

We have fear of (or from) various things. So ".../dan korkmak" makes logical sense to me. Thus 

I am afraid of snakes = Yılandan korkuyorum

Hoşlanmak = to like, to be pleased with, to enjoy

We get enjoyment from various things, so it is not hard to adapt your thinking to accept  ..../dan hoşlanmak. You just need to remember it! Thus

I enjoy music. (I get enjoyment from music) Müzikten hoşlanırım.

Once you are aware, you can then accept

Ondan hoşlandı. He/she enjoyed/liked that.

Senden çok hoşlanıyorum. I like you very much

Another small observation is that in English we are used to thinking that when it rains, it falls ´on´ us. In Turkish the rain falls ´to´ us. Both are correct, when you think beyond your own language.

Thus the Turkish verb for ´to rain´ has ...../a yağmur yağmak

 


5.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 04:43 pm

Agree with all the others.

 

Just to add:

1. Looking up the dictionary on site which gives the -e/-den things is VERY useful

2. You just have to memorise them. Seeing as Turkish has very few irregular verbs we are lucky we don´t have a lot to memorise.

 

Sadly, the thing I get wrong the most is the -e or -dan or -i with a verb

 

6.       si++
3785 posts
 21 Nov 2011 Mon 06:03 pm

 

Quoting MarioninTurkey

Agree with all the others.

 

Just to add:

1. Looking up the dictionary on site which gives the -e/-den things is VERY useful

2. You just have to memorise them. Seeing as Turkish has very few irregular verbs we are lucky we don´t have a lot to memorise.

 

Sadly, the thing I get wrong the most is the -e or -dan or -i with a verb

 

 

Which one(s) do you have in your mind?

7.       Donkeyoaty
105 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 03:45 pm

Very interesting.

Thanks to all for the advice. I guess it will help when I get into more than superficial conversations to get used to the appropriate endings as spoken. I hadn´t thought of using the dictionary. Thanks

8.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 06:15 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Which one(s) do you have in your mind?

 

Marion?

9.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 07:46 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Marion?

 

Really only olmak is irregular, according to grammar books. Compared with French where there are hundreds, and English where there are thousands.

 

My point was, we can´t complain as learners of Turkish if we have to memorise whether it is -i bilmek or -dan korkmak etc. Learners of English and French have so many more "oddities" to memorise.

10.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Nov 2011 Tue 07:52 pm

 

Quoting MarioninTurkey

 

 

Really only olmak is irregular, according to grammar books. Compared with French where there are hundreds, and English where there are thousands.

 

My point was, we can´t complain as learners of Turkish if we have to memorise whether it is -i bilmek or -dan korkmak etc. Learners of English and French have so many more "oddities" to memorise.

 

I think you mean "to be" (old ermek verb) which has disappered in the present tense form and has remnants like idi ise imiş.

 

 

olmak is a regular verb (you can conjugate it like any other verb).

 

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