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Case Endings in Adjectives
(11 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       Abla
3647 posts
 10 Jan 2012 Tue 06:39 pm

This is a little provocating question, I admit.

Turkish adjectives are not declined. This is the first good news for all learners especially because the group of adjectives is very wide. For instance, basic numerals are adjectives just like many stems of indefinite and determinative pronouns.

The problem is that when you take a closer look, adjectives seem to decline all the time.

Uçan balonlar ne kadar yükseğe çıkabilir?

Ucuza al, pahalıya sat.

Kırmızıdan sonra dirençleri arttı.

Uzunla kısanın, şişmanla zayıfın arkadaşlığından korkacaksın.

I understand these adjectives are used as nouns and their governing word has been dropped from the sentence. But it is still amazingly simple: no derivation is needed, just go ahead and paste the case endings straight to the adjective. Maybe we should write the rule again: Turkish adjectives are not declined, except when they are declined, and in this case they are interpreted as nouns.

The real question is, does it work this way with all adjectives or are some of them more liberal than others? In other words, can any adjective be used as a noun?



Edited (1/10/2012) by Abla [conjugate>decline]

2.       scalpel
1472 posts
 11 Jan 2012 Wed 01:40 am

 

Quoting Abla

This is a little provocating question, I admit.

Very provocating...

Turkish adjectives are not declined.  This is the first good news for all learners especially because the group of adjectives is very wide. For instance, basic numerals are adjectives just like many stems of indefinite and determinative pronouns.

The problem is that when you take a closer look, adjectives seem to decline all the time.

Uçan balonlar ne kadar yükseğe çıkabilir?

Ucuza al, pahalıya sat.

Kırmızıdan sonra dirençleri arttı.

Uzunla kısanın, şişmanla zayıfın arkadaşlığından korkacaksın.

I understand these adjectives are used as nouns and their governing word has been dropped from the sentence. But it is still amazingly simple: no derivation is needed, just go ahead and paste the case endings straight to the adjective. Maybe we should write the rule again: Turkish adjectives are not declined, except when they are declined, and in this case they are interpreted as nouns.

You put the rule upside down The rule is: Turkish nouns are declined (e.g. yükseğe çık ) unless they are used as adjectives (e.g. yüksek çıkarlar )  

The real question is, does it work this way with all adjectives or are some of them more liberal than others? In other words, can any adjective be used as a noun?

The question should be, "which groups of nouns can be used as adjectives?"

 

 

 

3.       Abla
3647 posts
 11 Jan 2012 Wed 05:11 pm

You know, scalpel, for a moment I thought you were serious.

4.       Abla
3647 posts
 19 Jan 2012 Thu 11:45 pm

Declining adjectives certainly doesn’t increase the informativeness of a sentence most of the time. Yet in the agglutinative Finnish language we do it conscientiously:

         suur|i|ssa talo|i|ssa ‘büyük ev|ler|de’

Congruation of adjective attributes increases the cohesion of phrases but also lengthens the words unnecessarily. (Finnish numerals  -  every part declined  -  are a problem not only for learners.)

While learning Turkish I have faced only one situation where I desperately feel like declining the adjective. You could call it changing of the quality. (In Finnish we have a special case for it.) I mean sentences like

         I painted the door yellow.
         The girl’s face turned red.
         Always call the intelligent woman beautiful and the beautiful woman intelligent.

The underlined adjective is the result of the action. How is this obvious problem solved in Turkish? Is the meaning of quality change hidden into the verb or what?


5.       Mavili
236 posts
 20 Jan 2012 Fri 04:06 am

Sincere question here. And I hope I don´t sound ignorent{#emotions_dlg.angel}

I don´t believe I am familiar with what is meant by nouns and adjectives "declining"  At least in English, the word "decline" means to refuse or to not accept, which is what I am most familiar with. how is it being related to the language here? 

6.       Abla
3647 posts
 20 Jan 2012 Fri 11:35 am

Your question is good, Mavili. You know, I am not an English speaker and for a moment I was scared I have really used the wrong term. So I went to check it.

My Swedish teacher was always very strict about using the correct grammatical terms: we conjugated verbs and declined nouns. Actually we are talking about the same thing: adding case and personal endings, plural and tense marks etc. on word roots. I guess the general English term is to inflect but I think - and I am not sure - that I have seen the verb conjugate used for nouns, too. Maybe it is not such a strict rule in English (and what does it matter, as you hardly inflect your words anyway). Talking about Turkish, it might be useful to separate the two terms because declining means adding certain kinds of elements and conjugation other kinds of elements to the root.

I am walking on thin ice always with my English and I wish someone will correct me when I err.



Edited (1/20/2012) by Abla

7.       Mavili
236 posts
 22 Jan 2012 Sun 05:01 am

 

Quoting Abla

Your question is good, Mavili. You know, I am not an English speaker and for a moment I was scared I have really used the wrong term. So I went to check it.

My Swedish teacher was always very strict about using the correct grammatical terms: we conjugated verbs and declined nouns. Actually we are talking about the same thing: adding case and personal endings, plural and tense marks etc. on word roots. I guess the general English term is to inflect but I think - and I am not sure - that I have seen the verb conjugate used for nouns, too. Maybe it is not such a strict rule in English (and what does it matter, as you hardly inflect your words anyway). Talking about Turkish, it might be useful to separate the two terms because declining means adding certain kinds of elements and conjugation other kinds of elements to the root.

I am walking on thin ice always with my English and I wish someone will correct me when I err.

 

You are spot on with your thought of the English word "inflect". (change the form of a word to express grammatical function) I think I understand now what is meant by declining of the adjectives. I´ve always related conjugation to verbs first, and maybe it was to inflect for English words However I can´t remember much grammar from school.

And there´s probably lots of mistakes, {#emotions_dlg.angel}but I wanted to give the first 2 of your sample sentences a try.

I painted the door yellow. -Kapıyı sarı boyuyordum.

The girl´s face turned yellow -Kızın yüzü kırmızımsı oldu
That last one though I would not know where to begin that one in Turkish.

8.       sufler
358 posts
 23 Jan 2012 Mon 08:48 pm

Could you translate to me what is the meaning of the two last sentences presented in the first post? I just can´t translate them properly myself

 

Quote:

Kırmızıdan sonra dirençleri arttı.

Uzunla kısanın, şişmanla zayıfın arkadaşlığından korkacaksın.

9.       Abla
3647 posts
 23 Jan 2012 Mon 08:59 pm

I´m sorry, I should have added the translations when I wrote it but I didn´t notice:

 

Kırmızıdan sonra dirençleri arttı. ´After the red their resistance got stronger.´ (It´s about football and the red thing is the card.)

Uzunla kısanın, şişmanla zayıfın arkadaşlığından korkacaksın. ´There is reason to be afraid of (lit. you will be afraid of) the friendship between the tall and the short (person), the fat and the skinny (person).´


sufler liked this message
10.       sufler
358 posts
 23 Jan 2012 Mon 10:17 pm

ِشكراً جزيلاً على ترجمتك

Thanks for the translation.

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