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If clause
1.       HaNNo
74 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 11:23 am

I was learning If clause (type 3 unrealistic) -as they call it in Merhaba Turkish site-  i have some questions please:

 

Seni görseydim, selam verirdim


1. Why the buffer "y" is used here?

2. Does "ir" refers to present simple tense and also "dim" for past simpletense? And if so, why it is not only "dim" or even "miş"?

 

Thanks in advance

2.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 11:35 am

 

Quoting HaNNo

I was learning If clause (type 3 unrealistic) -as they call it in Merhaba Turkish site-  i have some questions please:

 

Seni görseydim, selam verirdim


1. Why the buffer "y" is used here?

2. Does "ir" refers to present simple tense and also "dim" for past simpletense? And if so, why it is not only "dim" or even "miş"?

 

Thanks in advance

1) There is a buffer letter there because there is an imaginary "i" before "di": "idi" We don´t pronounce it anymore but we still use the buffer letter.

2)"-ir"refers to present simple tense and "-di" refers to past simple tense. "m" after "-di" is personal ending for "I". So you can understand first person singular does the action. "irdi" together gives "would" meaning.

 



Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum

3.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 11:38 am

,



Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum

4.       HaNNo
74 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 11:59 am

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

2)"-ir"refers to present simple tense and "-di" refers to past simple tense. "m" after "-di" is personal ending for "I". So you can understand first person singular does the action. "irdi" together gives "would" meaning.

 

 

Ah thanks gokuyum "irdi" is a new lesson for me to know.

 

 

5.       HaNNo
74 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:05 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

1) There is a buffer letter there because there is an imaginative "i" before "di": "idi" We don´t pronounce it anymore but we still use the buffer letter.

 

 

Sorry there is something i couldn´t understand here.

 

Does the imaginary "i" is always with the "di" past tense or only with if clause.

 

Meaning that when i say "I slept" would it be "uyudum" or "uyuydum"

 

Thanks again



Edited (10/22/2012) by HaNNo

6.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:15 pm

 

Quoting HaNNo

 

 

Sorry there is something i couldn´t understand here.

 

Does the imaginary "i" is always with the "di" past tense or only with if clause.

 

Meaning that when i say "I ran" would it be "yürüdüm" or "yürüydüm"

 

Thanks again

It seems it happens only with if clause. Interesting. But why? I will search.

It doesnt happen only with if clause. It happens with -meli (necessity) gelmeliydi.

                                                                               -a  (will) geleydi.



Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum

7.       Abla
3647 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:27 pm

I think the explanation is here:

 

When tense/aspect/modality markers co-occur they appear in the order given below (Göksel – Kerslake). Copular markers (group 4) are composite. They consist of the copula -(y)- < *-i- and the grammatical marker –DI, -mIş or –sA. Copular markers attach to

 

1. nouns

2. verbs that contain one of the tense/aspect/modality suffixes in group 3

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

-(y)A ‘possibility’

-(y)Abil ‘possibility’

 

-(y)Iver ‘non-premeditative’

 

-DI ‘perfective’

 

-mIş ‘perfective, evidential’

 

-sA ‘conditional’

 

-(A/I)r/-z ‘aorist’

 

-(y)Acak ‘future’

 

-(I)yor ‘imperfective’

 

-mAlI ‘obligative’

 

-mAktA ‘imperfective’

 

-(y)A ‘optative’

Copular markers:

 

-(y)DI ‘past copula’

 

-(y)mIş ‘evidential copula’

 

-(y)sA ‘conditional copula’

-Dir ‘generalizing modality’

 

 

So, in görseydim there is a suffix -sA- from group 3. That is why in further affixation it is treated like it was a noun and the copula -(y)DI-  -  buffer included  -  is used with it.

 

The situation would be the same in gördüysem btw  -  -DI- from group 3 and -(y)se- from copular markers.

 

I have understood the buffer is a relic from the old *er- stem, so no wonder.

 


 

HaNNo liked this message
8.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:30 pm

 

Quoting Abla

I think the explanation is here:

 

When tense/aspect/modality markers co-occur they appear in the order given below (Göksel – Kerslake). Copular markers (group 4) are composite. They consist of the copula -(y)- < *-i- and the grammatical marker –DI, -mIş or –sA. Copular markers attach to

 

1. nouns

2. verbs that contain one of the tense/aspect/modality suffixes in group 3

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

-(y)A ‘possibility’

-(y)Abil ‘possibility’

 

-(y)Iver ‘non-premeditative’

 

-DI ‘perfective’

 

-mIş ‘perfective, evidential’

 

-sA ‘conditional’

 

-(A/I)r/-z ‘aorist’

 

-(y)Acak ‘future’

 

-(I)yor ‘imperfective’

 

-mAlI ‘obligative’

 

-mAktA ‘imperfective’

 

-(y)A ‘optative’

Copular markers:

 

-(y)DI ‘past copula’

 

-(y)mIş ‘evidential copula’

 

-(y)sA ‘conditional copula’

-Dir ‘generalizing modality’

 

 

So, in görseydim there is a suffix -sA- from group 3. That is why in further affixation it is treated like it was a noun and the copula -(y)DI-  -  buffer included  -  is used with it.

 

The situation would be the same in gördüysem btw  -  -DI- from group 3 and -(y)se- from copular markers.

 

I have understood the buffer is a relic from the old *er- stem, so no wonder.

 


 

 

Thank you abla. You saved me.

9.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:36 pm

Simply there are two modes in Turkish:

1-Haber kipleri (tenses)  -yor,-ir,-di,-miş,-ecek

2- Dilek kipleri (wish modes)  -sin,-iniz,-se, -e, -meli  We call these wish modes because they don´t occur in time.We just imagine them.

 

If these suffixes come after one another and if two vowels come together we put y between them.

 

 



Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum
Edited (10/22/2012) by gokuyum

HaNNo liked this message
10.       HaNNo
74 posts
 22 Oct 2012 Mon 12:56 pm

WoooW i´m glad my question is not useless or expresses stupidity

 

Your answers guys are really helpful and to the point. Thanks

gokuyum liked this message
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