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-ması and -duğu
(11 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 04:11 am

ok here´s  the deal... since I ever started learning turkish this has driven me crazy..

 

let´s say we have 2 sentences:

 

- böyle olmasına çök sinirlendim

- böyle olduğuna çök sinirlendim

 

- ´olmamı istiyor´ and ´olduğumu biliyor´

what´s the difference between ´mak+posessive´ and ´dık+posessive´?

2.       ikicihan
1127 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 06:52 am

 

Quoting AdnanDayya

ok here´s  the deal... since I ever started learning turkish this has driven me crazy..

 

let´s say we have 2 sentences:

 

- böyle olmasına çök sinirlendim

- böyle olduğuna çök sinirlendim

because of -di suffix, these are past tense and i see no difference between these two sentenses. totally same meaning.

 

- ´olmamı istiyor´ and ´olduğumu biliyor´

these are not past and they are not same. the difference

olmamı istiyor: he wants me to be ...
olduğumu biliyor: he knows that i am ...

in first sentense, i am not what he wants, i may be in the future, he wants me to be...
in second sentense, i have been something and he has info about this, we dont knows he likes it or not, he just knows.

 

 

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3.       Abla
3647 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 10:13 am

Quote: ikicihan

olmamı istiyor: he wants me to be ...
olduğumu biliyor: he knows that i am ...

Here it is. The action with MA did not actually happen, the action with DIK did/does. Verbal nouns (infinitives) represent the pure undefined action while the participle marking is a means of grammatical hypotaxis and the action it denotes is described in that particular speech act as something that has really taken place. Actually they are two very different things when you come to think of it.

 

In verb queues MA usually brings the meaning of manipulation: olmamı istiyor is a wish, an obligation, an order depending on the context. The difference shows best if we use a very neutral verb as the head of that phrase:

 

                 Mahmut´un gel|diğ|ini söyledim ´I said Mahmut comes/has come/had come´.

                 Mahmut´un gel|me|sini söyledim ´I said Mahmut should come´.

 

Correct me if I am wrong.

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4.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 03:42 pm

I heard from a Turk friend the same explanation... the suffix -MA is used when things havent happened before, and -DIK is used for things that happened USUALLY...

and he also said that it can be the same...it´s actually very contradicting... he said it only depends on the following verb

in english it´s like:

- he/she got mad at what I´ve become

- he/she got mad at "what I am" / "me being like this"

 

It´s very hard to explain... but I´m really thankful about the clarifications and I hope others pay attention to it...

5.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 03:55 pm

ok here´s an explanation I came up with....

 

istiyor: wanting

u dont want something that happened.. u want something TO HAPPEN, or someone TO BE..

and in this case u use ´bir şeyin olmasını istiyorum´

 

biliyor : knowing

u dont know something to happen.. u either know something THAT ALREADY HAPPENED or something WILL HAPPEN...

and in this case u use ´bir şeyin olduğunu biliyorum´ or ´bir şeyin olacağını biliyorum´

6.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 04:02 pm

I think this also explains a little bit about olduğum halde and olmama rağmen

7.       Abla
3647 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 05:47 pm

Quote: AdnanDayya

I think this also explains a little bit about olduğum halde and olmama rağmen

 

Yes! Very smart thinking. The same way

 

                          yapmadan önce

                          yaptıktan sonra

 

don´t you think?

 

The border is relatively clear but there are cases where both MA and DIK go as ikicihan cleared before. Actually this is logical too: the infinite system reflects a continuum between pure undefined action (abstract action which only exists in the world of ideas) and a reported (real) action.

 

Not the most difficult thing in Turkish syntax anyway in my opinion.

8.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 06:12 pm

yes that´s also a proof of how it can be used...

 

and whatttt?! there are harder things in turkish? like what?! {#emotions_dlg.scared}

9.       burakk
309 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 07:53 pm

-mak is a suffix that creates a noun from a verb. -dik on the other hand makes an adjective from a verb. that means that the word that takes -dik has to define a noun (mostly). for example:

 

tiği suyu püskürttü.

 

içtiği here defines the word su, turning "içmek" into ortaç. which water? the water that he drank.

 

but then the second word can fall:

 

tiğini püskürttü.

 

-dik still functions the same here, içtiğini is still an ortaç here. we just dont see the suyu.

 

same thing with your sentences.

 

böyle olduğuna çok sinirlendim is actually

 

böyle olduğu gerçeğine çok sinirlendim.

 

 

-mek doesnt need this, since it creates the noun all by itself.

 

böyle olduğu gerçeğine çok sinirlendim.

böyle olmasına çok sinirlendim.

 

 

-mek and -dik doesnt always mean the same thing. for example:

kaçması için yardım ettik. - we helped him esacpe

kaçtığı için yardım ettik. - we helped him because he escaped

 

so to know the difference, put the word in front of it.

 

kaçması için yardım ettik

kaçtığı sebebi için yardım ettik.

 

whenever you are confused and cant make out what the sentence means, complete it with the word that has fallen. that will clear up the meaning.

 

 

 

also -dik and -mek dont always mean the time of the event. for example you can say

 

dün öyle yapması iyi oldu

bizim tanıdıklar gelecekmiş etc



Edited (6/29/2013) by burakk
Edited (6/29/2013) by burakk

Abla liked this message
10.       AdnanDayya
11 posts
 29 Jun 2013 Sat 08:25 pm

Nice explanation... thanks a lot for that burakk

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