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gelene kadar / gelinceye kadar...
1.       Turkish2412
259 posts
 03 Jan 2014 Fri 02:29 am

Biz buraya gelene kadar neler çektik

 

Why in this sentence above say ´´gelene´´ kadar and not ´´gelinceye kadar´´?


İ know ´´gelen´´ mean ´´the one that come´´
giden=the one that go
yapan=the one that do
nefret eden=the one that hate 

And so on...But i never before saw suffixes e/a are added to them, as it is in sentence i gave. So what does it mean and when do you use it?



Edited (1/3/2014) by Turkish2412

Mokba liked this message
2.       Henry
2604 posts
 03 Jan 2014 Fri 03:11 pm

 

Quoting Turkish2412

Biz buraya gelene kadar neler çektik

 

Why in this sentence above say ´´gelene´´ kadar and not ´´gelinceye kadar´´?


İ know ´´gelen´´ mean ´´the one that come´´
giden=the one that go
yapan=the one that do
nefret eden=the one that hate 

And so on...But i never before saw suffixes e/a are added to them, as it is in sentence i gave. So what does it mean and when do you use it?

 

Here are some notes I have regarding -e kadar, -ene kadar (until)

Use -e kadar for nouns (places, time words)

Use -ene kadar for verbs 

(Note: this is a different construction to the ´en´ of the ´verbal adjective´ you mentioned)

Use -inceye kadar for verbs 

Ben gelene kadar burada bekle

Ben gelinceye kadar burada bekle

Both these sentences have identical meanings

Wait here until I come

Sometimes to avoid enen or anan repetition, the inceye kadar version is preferred.

For example

Evlenene kadar bu evde oturdum (I lived in this house until I married)

Evleninceye kadar bu evde oturdum. (preferred, sounds better in Turkish)

Çocuk uyanana kadar rahatız (we were at ease until the child woke up)

Çocuk uyanıncaya kadar rahatız (preferred because it lacks the anana)

And below are some more explanations from si++ (with a few alterations) 

-ene kadar makes adverbial clauses. It is equal to "until ...".

Dün yürüyerek eve geldim. = I came home by walking yesterday.

Now we can put an until 

before it in English, but the Turkish sentence requires some re-engineering.

First you need strip off the suffixes after the verb and add "-ene kadar", so:

Dün yürüyerek eve gelene kadar

Now you have a adverbial clause in Turkish, but you may need to take care of the subject of it. If it is the same as the main clause you can leave it as it is, but if it is different, you need to add it (notice bold blue characters below).

Dün yürüyerek eve geldim -> Dün yürüyerek eve gelene kadar

or -> Dün ben yürüyerek eve gelene kadar

 

Assume we have a main clause with different person as subject.

Dün ben yürüyerek eve gelene kadar, Fatma evden ayrılmıştı. = Fatma had left until I came home by walking yesterday.

 

Also notice that there is no tense suffix in Turkish subclause, the tense depends on the main clause.

ben eve gelene kadar, Fatma evden ayrılmasın = don´t let Fatma leave until I come home.

ben eve gelene kadar, Fatma evden ayrılmayacakmış = Fatma says she won´t leave until I come home.

ben eve gelene kadar, Fatma evden ayrılmadı = Fatma didn´t leave until I came home.

tunci, elenagabriela, Abla, Turkish2412 and TheNemanja liked this message
3.       Turkish2412
259 posts
 03 Jan 2014 Fri 06:43 pm

Thank you, i really like your explanations. Smile

Mokba liked this message
4.       Mokba
1 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 06:03 am

Thank you

5.       JNQ
465 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 09:51 am

 

Quoting Henry

Evleninceye kadar bu evde oturdum. (preferred, sounds better in Turkish)

Çocuk uyan─▒ncaya kadar rahat─▒z (preferred because it lacks the anana)

 

 

Hi, can you explain why -inceye kadar is preferred? You state it but all your examples are about gelene kadar. Seems to me that -anana is easier to pronounce?

Also when I google it, gelene kadar gets 6.600.000 hits and gelinceye kadar gets only 1.700.000 hits.

 

6.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 02:39 pm

 

Quoting Turkish2412

Biz buraya gelene kadar neler çektik

 

Why in this sentence above say ´´gelene´´ kadar and not ´´gelinceye kadar´´?


─░ know ´´gelen´´ mean ´´the one that come´´
giden=the one that go
yapan=the one that do
nefret eden=the one that hate 

And so on...But i never before saw suffixes e/a are added to them, as it is in sentence i gave. So what does it mean and when do you use it?

 

-en/-an form of a verb is present participle and can also function as an adjective.

a─člayan bebek - crying baby

sadece 10 TL´den ba┼člayan fiyatlarla - with prices starting from just TL 10

 

gitmek isteyen Ali - Ali is the one who wants to go

...karar verecek olan ben de─čilim - it´s not me the one who will decide...

 

the word "gelene" in your example sentence is not present participle but gerund. 

gel.e.n.e  (not gel.en.e)

 

gel

gel.e (gerund)

when -e kadar added to this, the buffer letter n appears between the two e´s

 

yumurtalar kaynayana kadar bekledi - s/he waited until the eggs began to boil

kayna

kayna.(y).a

kayna.(y).a.(n).a

 

alt─▒y─▒ on geçeye kadar bekledim - I waited until ten past six

geç

geç.e

geç.e.(y).e

 

7.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 03:20 pm

 

Quoting Henry

Sometimes to avoid enen or anan repetition, the inceye kadar version is preferred.

For example

Evlenene kadar bu evde oturdum (I lived in this house until I married)

Evleninceye kadar bu evde oturdum. (preferred, sounds better in Turkish)

 

 

(evlen)-ene kadar vs (evlen)-inceye kadar.

The shorter, the better.

 

 

 

 

8.       JNQ
465 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 03:57 pm

 

Quoting scalpel - -

(evlen)-ene kadar vs (evlen)-inceye kadar.

The shorter, the better.

 

So -inceye is not preferred?

9.       scalpel - -
203 posts
 11 Apr 2017 Tue 09:01 pm

 

Quoting JNQ

 

 

So -inceye is not preferred?

 

as a gerund, -ince is far more widely used than -e

bak─▒nca, gelince, okuyunca, etc.

but, for example, we never say

üçü be┼č geçince

we always say

üçü be┼č geçe

 

-e kadar

gele+e kadar => gele(n)e kadar

gelince+e kadar => gelince(y)e kadar

both are grammaticaly correct but not equally used.

probably because -ene kadar is shorter and easier, or because older than -inceye kadar,it is preferable..

but, after all, it´s your choice, so pick either one and you should be fine

JNQ liked this message
10.       atlantis32
3 posts
 12 Apr 2017 Wed 09:07 am

Scapel explained it very good.

 

By the way, this is a very technical question. Feel free to use in daily life, no one understands the difference.

 

What does a person understand?

 

Ben gelene kadar bekle (wait until I come)

Ben gelinceye kadar bekle (wait until I come)

 

so same...

JNQ liked this message
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