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[By Today's Zaman] Turkey cannot turn its back on democracy
The General Staff issued a statement in the late hours of Friday night. Since the statement was very harsh, some likened it to a "military memorandum." The stability that has been sustained in the last four-and-a-half years was clouded. On the other hand, some commentaries made over the General Staff's stance were even harsher. The negative atmosphere that emerged in a very short time, unfortunately, reflected a landscape that would severely embarrass Turkey in the international arena. International news agencies reflected this picture, which will likely shake the trust in Turkish democracy and harm stability.




The debate sparked late in the night was not at all a befitting scene for Turkey. Intellectuals who managed to get over the initial shock immediately adopted a common stance in favor of resolving all problems through democratic means. This stance is important. In fact, things like military memoranda or coups not only harm politics but also all the institutions of the state and the nation at large.

Following the statement of the General Staff, all the eyes were riveted on the government. Government spokesman Cemil Çiçek read out a very meticulously written statement prepared after hours of deliberations, and underlined important details. In the statement, which highlighted the fact that the General Staff was an institution attached to the government, he pointed out that the government was seriously concerned and upset; he mentioned efforts to "incite the judicial system against the government" and drew attention to an imminent danger. "We should frustrate the efforts of some people with evil intentions trying to pit our Turkish Armed Forces against our government," Çiçek stressed.

Considering the statement in its entirety, we see that the government adopted a dignified stance against a possible military operation but without being obstinate, and offered dialogue to prevent certain malicious circles from getting what they desire. This is the right move.

Certain groups have been making particular and painstaking efforts to create a rift between the government and certain institutions of the state. There may have been certain events which were easy to misinterpret, and there may have been certain attitudes which cannot not be approved; however being a state necessitates being even-tempered and acting in a sound-minded fashion. The reflection of Turkey's state tradition on institutions and politics definitely entails acting in an imperturbable manner. Turkey has so to say it has digested democracy and the republic not only through its citizens but also through its institutions. We should be able to see this clearly; Turkey is also going through a very critical process. Now, everyone is carrying a large wicker basket full of eggs on their backs. The plummeting of the Turkish economy would serve no one, neither the politicians nor the military and it would have grave consequences which we would altogether have to suffer. It is unthinkable for Turkey, which has made a great headway in the EU process, to renounce democracy and become introverted. We cannot rashly sacrifice the benefits we have so far made from the republic and democracy for the sake of the evil instinct of polarization.

Today is the day everyone should remember their responsibilities. While Çiçek noted on Friday that "We should frustrate the efforts of some people with evil intentions trying to pit our Turkish Armed Forces against our government," ANAVATAN leader Erkan Mumcu said, "Regime guardianship would bring no good to the country; we should now take each other by the hand," and leader of DYP Mehmet Ağar stressed, "The only existing path is democracy."

At this stage, there are important duties that should be assumed, first and foremost by CHP leader Deniz Baykal. Fomenting tensions all the time will neither benefit the government nor the opposition. Any effort to polarize the society will cause serious harm to this country. Therefore, everyone from the soldiers to civilians, from the media to the business world must act responsibly and look for ways of a resolution within democracy, no matter how big the problem is.

The Turkey of 2007 has assigned this responsibility to everyone. Overlooking this reality is tantamount to heading into an obscure adventure in which our descendants will definitely hold us responsible before history. There is no need for such an adventure. The Turkey of today and tomorrow invites everyone to take upon themselves a responsibility.

That responsibility is consolidated by the belief that we can’t afford to turn our backs on democracy.

28.04.2007

Kaddersokak, what is your personal opinion?

my personal opinion is democracy forever. Turkey is not a third world country so army should be under the civilian control that is the government elected by Turkish people. only in third world countries those who contol means of violence control government.

Please people, do not get too emotional or personal. It's an interesting topic and I would feel sad if it get's locked because of this.

We still see Ataturk the only real turkish hero. he has blond hair and blue eyes. This is taught us in schools. all the foreign countries are our enemies. this is taught us in schools too. Ataturk passed away in 1938 but we visit his mosaleum and talk to him as if he is alive. Ataturk said the only real friends of Turks are Turks (not Americans, Europeans, or Arabs). Ataturk lived between 1881 and 1938. has anything changed in the world since 1938?

our economy is not good, our democracy is not good but we do not care because we have a powerfull army and we can kill our enemies.

I understand why Atatürk is important to many turks even today because the allies tried to tear the rest of the empire apart and he prevented that but it doesn't mean that the rules and laws regarding society back then still are as valid today, because times have changed a lot since then.

a powerfull country has three things:

a powerful economy
a powerful democracy
a powerful army

our enemies are not greeks, americans, arabs, or europeans, the real enemy is the enemy inside that is who are against economic and democratic stability and who supports military intervention in politics...

now all the people make fun of us because in our country government is warned by armed forces which is supposed to be under civilian control...

"but people (Turks) want honour not money"

then why on the earth do hundred of thousands Turkish people apply for American green card lottery or why do hundreds of people wait in front of the emabssies to get a visa to Europe?

"Turkey has a special stiuation or a condition" is another discourse to justify the undemocratic acts in Turkey. That means Turkey has a special stiuation so in Turkey we can not have full democracy, Turkey is a modern country but army should be more powerfull than government.

Yes, Turkey is a special case because we do not have a real democracy but we say we are a modern country. If we want to be a modern country in European standarts, representatives selected by people, not armed forces, should govern Turkey.

if we do not trust civil goverments, turkey will continue to be a special case.

Protecting the 'secular democratic social law-state ', as turkish republic is defined in our constitution, is no contradiction to democracy.One cannot talk about democracy unless there is secularism.One cannot talk about democracy in a country where people have to live according to the rules of a certain religion.Islamist states cannot be called democracies and our oh-so-democrat islamists who keep harping on about democracy, admitt democracy is not the aim,it is just a tool to get them there where they wanna be.Which is an islamist state thats run by Sheria.And this is islamist-fashism.
Secularism is an essential component of democracy and therefore protected in our constitution. It's one of the unchangable principles of the constitution.Twist it all you want,Army does not intervene with politics.They respect democractic institutions.But when these founding principles of our democracy is at stake its their duty to protect the regime acording to our constitution.No regime is suicidal.

KADDERSOKAK, go spam other boards with your islamist propaganda and anti-republican drivel taken from Fettullah Hoca press.We've heard it all before and we are not impressed
All you can fool is some foreigners here with very limited knowledge about Turkey matters.And they are not the ones who will decide about Turkey's future

Anyway,noone wants a coup here, so forget about Armed Forces, meet the Unarmed Forces of Turkiye we are relying on
After more than 1 million protestors in Ankara 2 weeks ago, now 3- 4 million demostraters rally in Istanbul to show their support to our Secular Republic,and protest AKP and its presidential candidate.

kadersokak baksana kaç kişiyiz saysana sonra da dön senin 2. cumhuriyetçi/takkeli taifesini bi say bakalım .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mrihah8HVU&mode=related&search=



sing along kadersokak , bir başkadır benim memleketim...lay lay lay lay lay lay lay lay....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3gN34XQao0


I hear the footsteps of early elections, there we will take care of this AKP government.

Caglayan Square is very near my home, so we went there yesterday to take part. Turkey is special, and different. You cannot compare its struggle to modernize and maintain its independence to any other country's.
In a sense, this country is still being governed by Ataturk (and thats a good thing).
The constitution is very clear regrading secularism. Some feel that Buyukanit was out of line in his midnight statement on Friday. But it is his duty to make clear that unsecular leadership in Turkey will not be tolerated. And by announcing this at midnight on Friday, he minimized any damage to turkish stock market and economy.
Lets not forget that Erdogan spent time in jail as mayor of Istanbul, after wideranging laws he made that are in-line with fundamental islamic law. Some no different than what we would expect from Taliban or Iranian government. Is this the direction we want Turkey to follow?
And since erdogan and gul have come to power, islamic teaching has received more priority in public schools. Schools hold contests for children who can memorize and recite the Koran the best. This is not the type of education needed to move Turkey forward.
Even TUSIAD has come forward with its opposition to an AK Party Presidency.

Turkey is secular and will remain secular...

I have no fear about secularism. I dont think they can forward turkey to an islamic state. coz R. tayyip and gul have worked very much for European Union more than other goverments before. but now? all of the ppl in cağlayan meeting are against to join EU. and I wanna ask... did erdogan decide to join european union??? NO. turkey applied to be a member 40 years ago. if they had a different opinion they would give up this... Turkey's face is towards to west but these ppl still think different coz tayyip and gul are religious...Being religious is not dangerous. it s their belief, and I respect this and it s none of our businees if his wife has head scarf. Turkey is a democratic country and turkish nation wanted these ppl to govern us. and it s not duty of BUYUKANIT to warn goverment. his duty is protect turkey against enemies. if they think they can warn goverment, they must warn kurdish parties coz his duty is defending the rights of turkish soldiars...

Of course being religous is not wrong. But, bringing religion into government is wrong. The constitution set by Ataturk is clear. If Turkey has to choose between satisfying EU law or satisfying Ataturk law, who do you think they will choose?

Than why are the public school's showing greater emphasis in teaching Islam? This has happened during the rise of AK Party. This is a greater concern than his wife's headscarf...

Thats not what I hear from those I know with children in school. And others feel the same way. This is the same man that banned alcohol in istanbul 10 years ago. He or Gul, or any other AK Party leader cannot be trusted as President.

And if they are so good for economy, then why has TUSIAD also spoken out against them?

I dont understand KeithL,are you againist people to have their own believes?
Or even choices in what they wear?
If governmet allow this,that make it a bad government?!!!

I believe in following Ataturk's outline for secularism. I have no problem with women wearing headscarves. Or men being religous.
But in the past AK Party/Welare party beliefs have influenced politics and law. This alone makes Erdogan or Gul unacceptable for President.

But Erdogan has been elected by people,wont that say anything at all ?
Like maybe they want him ??!!!
I dont really know what is the problem,
People of Turkiye will say what they want, why to control that by an army threat ?

He was elected as Prime Minister, not President. Millions of Turks have marched in the last weeks. Turks are voting, with their voices and their feet. Aren't you listening?

Turkiye is only Istanbul and Ankara ?!
Why dont you see and listen to others too not just people who are in picture?!

I dont know where you get your information from. People bussed in from all regions of turkey for both events, not only Istanbul and Ankara. And I'm sure you are aware that Istanbul and Ankara are the two largest cities. Between them, they represent about 25% of the country's population.
And soon, there will be a rally in Germany by Turks who live there, also against AK Party.
Look who is against the AK party gaining the presidency. It is the well educated Turks. University staff, business leaders, senior military staff. Do you think these people are stupid?
Not living in Turkey, where do you form your opinion on this subject?

thats really interesting ,as if 2 different Turkish people living in our wonderfull country,and some of em using secularism as a political weapon,sure a a few people (only a few mariginals) wants an islamic country,but thats never barrier for the other millions,and not easy to believe how come this much discussions about beliefs in a secualr and law country??i believe thats no problem in the big part of Turkish people about beliefs,but just some mariginals (especially who calls theirself intellectual and democratical)using secualrism for ther selfish political aims and worries.Friends!!!Turkey is a law country,and has a big power,so everythings will be finer when we trust each other more and we respect to rules of democracy...

We will fix the problems. Don't you worry. Those Arab admirers in Turkia can be sure they will pay for their actions.

Democracy will win!

Something that I can't underatand...
What kind of power does the president have compared to the PM? When the army is concerned about AKP why did they allow Erdoğan to become PM?

Like janissary said earlier, Turkey is secular country and there's just no chance that it will change. With that said, it is impossible to seperate politics and ethics completely. Islam has deep roots in Turkey and that is bound to influence ethic questions, same goes for all other countries.

We should discuss about law of elections. Because they are there for 36 percent. But they represent 64 of congress. Do you think this is fair? Democracy is not system. It is a way of living. And has to protect itself. If not, there wont be a democracy at all. It is hard to reach in this condition for fundemantalist which they are in now. So they have to protect their places. They have to change all of the republican basics, so they could get all the power and never give it back. Lighten up, they are the wolves who looks like sheep!

So how did the speech go tonight?

This is not democracy. Who is representing me and fighting for my rights now? And if they fights, is 36 of congress enough for the represent of %64 of Turkey? I love Ataturk, Ilove Turkish republic and I love who loves this country as much as me(love this country the way it is, "Turkish Republic").

You are still on right- left. This is not about that. Are you ready to be forced on their rules, wear turban, join some cult, not to go somewhere without some male relative male with you? Go ahead! This is not about righties or lefties. By the way are calling Atatürk on left? Funny. Atatürk knows his nation's nature. That s why he removed caliph. But I guess some of you ready and willing to obey one again.

I really dont understand... if they are really against secularism and modernism. why they worked very hard for joining EU and succceed to get a date...

Anyone here heard about trojan horse? Until you in the castle you need to be look and behave nice. Once you are in, swords can be use! Read about Iran, learn how they became like this. Not with swords, not with face to face fighting. Democratic elections, after a couple years; you are not sure that, milkman knocking on your door. First of all they shot the pilots at 3 am in their home so any of the precious fighter Plane could not escape!

And somebody surely recall about adultery law. And alcoholic beverages at bosphorus, mosque in taksim square(like every mosque is overcrowded, needed new ones. We can pray everywhere if we are Muslims.) And remember he has charged about being against this country.They dont force u anything by now. They are busy with getting their sons rich(one of them killed a famous singer while walking on sidewalk,has not been charged), selling all Turkey has. When done, we will be next! I am not ready, please you first!

Nobody needs to worry about secularism in Turkey. Just see the steep erosion of moral values in society; what kind of tv programmes are on the top in the ratings, the role models of the teenagers in society, the pornographic newspaper (Posta) outselling all the meanstream newspapers. Secularism is definitely not in danger. Secularism is nil itself without democracy. Some within the army who deem society's love of army on themselves have had the temerity to rape democracy. Why are the staunch defenders of secularism keeping silent?
"Democracy is really cool when it is for me only?"

I don't care if the europeens or other super democratic countries think Turkey is an anti-democratic country, because that means whether they don't know enough about Turkey or they are in favor of an Islamic Turkey or a weaker Turkey.
Turkey is a very particular country, Turkish nation is a very particular nation, in order to understand what's been really going on in Turkey, you have to look really very close to Turkey as close as an individual living in Turkey.

In our constitution, the things that can never be changed or even questioned are clear, the priciples of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and in the constitution the role of the turkish army is also very clear, "guardian of the Atatürk's regime". What is Atatürk's regime? It's a secular democratic republic. So, now you're calling Turkey an anti-democratic country? The europe is calling us anti-democratic? What is it to them? We don't want to enter the European Union anymore. They think that for us entering the EU is a matter of life and death.
All the world has seen what our people can do in case of an attack to our values. The instituion which turkish people trust the most is the army.
"The turkish army belongs to the turkish nation and the turkish nation belongs to the turkish army."
Every turkish person borns as a soldier, we don't need any democracy lessons of a Union that we will never enter into and of which imperialistic members would finish us if we had never done the independence war of Mustafa Kemal. Now, they consider it anti-democratic to follow our leader.

First of all i am sorry for my English because i tried to translate quickly .

Portrait and some Declarations of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan through 1994-2006

*The time when he was the Major of İstanbul;

“Elhamdülillah we are the supporters of Sheria”(21.11.1994 Milliyet)
“I am against the celebration of New year”(19.12.1994 Sabah)
“I didnt go to dervish lodge(tekke), i went to dergah”(22.11.1997 Gözcü)
“No need to stand like a stake when showing respect to Atatürk” (12.5.1994 Hürriyet)
“Every 10th of November people make useless fuss”(14.11.1994 Hürriyet)
“Alcohol should be banned”(1.5.1996 Hürriyet)
“We will change İstanbul into Medina”(Akis)
“All the schools in Türkiye will be changed into İmam Hatip(school for raising İmams) schools”(17.9.1994 Cumhuriyet)
“The colour of green(the colour of sidewalk) is civilisation”(25.6.1994)
“Only Imams should marry people officially”(9.5.1995 Milliyet)
“I am at the side of to open TBMM(Parliament) with prays”(When he was the major of İstanbul, every year opening of municipality council made by prays instead of Independence March. And again after an opening of the council, he gave this declaration)(8.1.1996 Milliyet)
“I am the Imam of İstanbul”(8.1.1995 Hürriyet)
“Advertisement of swimsuit is a exploitation of lust”(6.3.1996 Hürriyet)
“National lottery is a cruelty”(29.9.1994 Hürriyet)
“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip.These days are so close”(5.2.1996 Akit)
“There is no need of Kemalizm or a regime similar to Kemalizm in the future of country”
“Mosques are our barracks, minarets are our bayonets, mümins(believer) are our soldiers”
“Democracy is not a aim, only a vehicle for us. We are affilied to democracy until we reach our aims”
“Democracy is a tram for us. When we came to stopping place we want, we will get off”

*He was speeching to the public at meeting.

“A cow is sitting on the middle of our way, closing our way, blocking us to reach our range. We will remove that cow from our way at first with words gently, then we will remove somehow by the help of you” (Here cow means Secular Republic and Revolutions of Atatürk.)

*Again at a meeting
“Turkey should be divided into states. And some authority of central governance should be given to these states. And Majors should be the most authorized person. And at that regions everykind of education should also be under control of them”(is the same expressions of dividers like PKK)

“You can’t be secular and muslim both. You must choose to be a muslim or to be a secular. It is impossible, both of them can not be together”
“Our reference is İslam. Our only goal is Islamic State”
“If you say “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene” others have right to say “Ne mutlu kürdüm ””(a reminder from the declaration of Turkish Military “Who is against the conception of Atatürk’s motto “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene”, are the enemies of Turkish Republic(27.4.2007) )
“1.5 billion of world of Islam are waiting impatiently to stand up of our muslim people. We will stand up and this rebellion will start”

The date of wedding invitation of his son “29 Zilkade 1421”(using Arabic takvim)

*After he became PM

“I am marketing Turkiye. For us given money is important. We market and sell everything, who give money, can take every worth of Turkiye”
“They insist to say secularism is going to be removed, of course can be removed if the people want”
“Women can sit where they want, it is none of your business”( Said to a journalist at a meeting of AKP in Kars asking why women and men sitting apart (at different places))
“The salary given to me is too low(not enough), how much salary do you take”(said to the PM of Germany)
“There is a identity problem in Türkiye. And the concept of “Turk” should be commented as a sub-identity. Anyone who wants then can say “I am a Turk””
“People who are walking with the alleged flags of PKK are wrong but low flight of F-16s of Turkish Army is also wrong, both are wrong”(He equals PKK with Turkish Army)

“We will be taken out of Cyprus likewise how Syria is taken out of Lebonan, they say “ leave out of Cyprus and we will do it like a sheep” ”

“It is impossible for one person to say i am both muslim and secular”
“Did you drink too much? Your mouth smells alcohol”(said to the ambassodor of Austria)
“Stop and listen!...Stop and listen!...9 months 10 days!”(said to a citizen at his speech)
“Look here! Do you think this nation need to work for you all the time”(said to the farmers in Erzurum)
“Is this your job to give a judgement about turban?, This is the job of ulema. What ulema says, it is right”( said to the Human rights court of Europe)

“Who are you? Ulema can give judgement about turban”(said to Danıştay(state coucil court). A few weeks after this declaration, a radical terrorist attacked to the judges of Danıştay who gave judgement about turban and killed one of them, injured others”

“Don’t shake your hand and arm! Every part of your body shaking!”(said to member of parliament)

“Ulan terbiyesizlik yapma! Artistlik yapma ulan! Hadi ananı da al git buradan”(said to a farmer in Mersin, its a rude expression so translation is difficult)

After hundreds of placement hadn’t approved by President of Republic, he decided to execute these places by proxies and said(target is President of Republic):
“We don’t do anything contrary to law, there is a rule like this in Sheria law.”

“What can(will) i talk to that woman?”(said to mother of a martyr)
“Military service is not a place to lay down and rest”( said to the relatives of martyr)

“Call that impostor, What does he want?”( said to a citizen in Germany whose money stolen by green capital…Also at the same meeting he made the ambassador of Turkish Republic booed by people.)

He abased YOK president Prof. Dr. Erdoğan Teziç by saying he is not celever in an argo way.

“I am guaranty to him, i trust him like my father, i believe in him as how i believe in me”
(said at Parliament(TBMM), he became guaranty to Yasin El-Kadı, Then who is Yasin El-Kadı?His name is listed as a sponsor of El-kaide by United Nations)

When PKK ceased fire:
“And then we don’t do military operations” (He is making jest to PKK)


He abased the former president of Turkish Republic of North Cyprus Rauf Denktaş.

“They are shouting as they are in a football match, these are not nice things”( said to the people who were shouting “Türkiye is secular, will remain secular”)

At AKP General Congress:
. Şerefsizler(dishonests)
. Bizim çocuklar açmı kalsın be!
. Kes ulan sesini(Shut up)
. Sana üç nokta koyarım
. Otur ulan oturduğun yerde, herşeye burnunu sokma

*And the others:
Before the elections of 2002 and after he just became PM

“I changed developing myself”

In the 4th year of his government:
“I never changed. Islamic opinions never change”

Lastly his oath against to Republic in 1980’s;
“I am affilied to Muhammed and muslim ummah. Türkiye has become a irreligous, secular state. I make oath(swear) on my religion, Allah and every holy things that i will devote myself to make a war against irreligous secular state of Mustafa Kemal, i will prevent all the irreligous laws of Mustafa Kemal to be performed and i will try to form a state of Sheria” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

When we look at his some declarations through this 12 year when he was a major of İstanbul and when he is now PM;

All can see that he is loyal to his oath in 1980’s and working and trying hardly to perform his oath today. One who can’t or don’t want to see these actions, maybe those are blind or anything else.


“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip. These days are so close”(5.2.1996 Akit)




Which civil society organization has attened to the meeting at Çağlayan and which are not;

Attended: CHP, DSP, MHP, ANAP, DYP, GP, SHP, İP, BBP, HP, DİSK, TÃœRK-İŞ, KESK, BAROLAR, ODALAR etc.

Not attended: AKP, SP, DEHAP, TKP, ÖDP, EMEP.

Also there will be a new meeting on 13th of May in İzmir Gündoğdu.


p.s: Who says economy is good, is also wrong. They took Türkiye with 220 billion dollars debt. And now the debt is 480 billion dollars. It is a record in whole history of Republic. Although they sold every worthies and big companies (Türk Telekom, Tüpraş, Erdemir, Seka, and so many KİTs), where has these moneys gone?. Let me remind some bid defraudations(60 big bid defraudations files are awaiting.) which are given to their partners to make them powerful. Türkiye’s ecomony stands up on hot money at stock exchange that belongs 70 % of foreign investors who make money with speculations not make any investments.. And how can one think that when the barrel cost of petroleum increases and then inflation decreases? Can one call this is an healthy economy?

People knew these facts and people voted for him knowing these facts. I don't like AKP as well but I am against a military takeover as well. So wait until the summer and vote for the people you want and make sure that they are secular if that your biggest worry. This is what happens in democratic countries.

armegon I had another reason to like you. Thanks for remainding those things. Some of us has fish memory. Again, democracy should protect itself, what it takes. Army just made a warning nothing further. They are pretty aware that it is not 80 anymore. Democracy for everyone.

Our Supreme Court has ruled that the first round of prime minister elections are invalid.
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/406777.asp

What this means is that Islamic politician Abdullah Gül won't become the new president.

The presidency is a critical place for Islamic politicians because it has the power to assign supreme court members and university presidents.

Islamic politics is very easy to understand. This is what they want to do step by step:

1. Critical administrative units will be occupied by Islamic rooted people. (this has already happened in most areas. Imams are in charge on top positions of eduactional departments or healt departments or even on fire department. Everywhere you see them. These days you can't even become a headteacher in any local school in Turkia if you are not close to Islamic politics).

2. headscarf will be allowed at universities for students. That will be the breaking point if it happens.

3. headscarf will be allowed for lecturers at universities

4. headscarf will be allowed for teachers at public schools

5. headscarf will be allowed at secondary schools for students

6. headscarf will be allowed at primary schools for students. Imagine even one generation (10 years) kids growing with the religious education, all brain washed.

A few years ago I was a teacher in a school in Ankara and there comes this new maths teacher into the teachers room wearing a headscarf. We were all shocked and told her that she can't go into the classroom like that. She become mad and said she was a ring of a chain and would fight for their ideas and didn't care for the rules not even for the constitution. Off course she was reported and dismissed from the job.

7. weekend days will be changed to friday and saturday so it will include the holy friday.

8. Working hours will be changed according praying times.

9. Number of prayer rooms (mescit) will increase in official departments.

10. Islamic marriage (imam nikahı ) will become legal and equal to official marriage.

11. Polygamy will become legal. Already many of the AK party members have multiple wives.

12. Alcohol will be banned.

13. Wearing swimsuits will be banned for females.

14. Islamic police department will be established.

Edit:
I forgot to mention what would happen if the Islamists would get the presidency. The president has the power to assign presidents of all state universities and members of our central higher education administration. So everthing would be set to allow headscarf in universities.

What is your source erdinc? Is it something they have proclaimed or otherwise announced?

In addition to..
Most important thing, A.Gül made a secret deal with Colin Powell on April 2th 2003. He had told about to Sedat Sertoğlu who journalist of Vatan newspaper..who was C.Powell..he was foreign ministry of USA..

" A.Gül bu gizli anlaşmanın yapılmasından bir buçuk ay sonra Vatan gazetesi yazarı Sedat Sertoğlu’na yaptığı açıklamada şunları söylemiştir:
“Ben bu gezileri yapmadan önce şimdi senin oturduğun koltukta (eliyle koltuğu vurdu) ABD Dışişleri Bakanı Powell oturuyordu. Onunla 2 sayfalık 9 maddelik bir plan üzerinde anlaştık. Ama ben her yaptığımı kalkıp açıklayamam ki…Powell Suriye’ye giderken de benimle konuştu. Gizli olan bir sürü gelişme var”.
Abdullah Gül bu görüşmede Irak’ı işgalini desteklemekte ve aralarında ülkemizin de bulunduğu “Ortadoğu’daki bütün rejimlerin değişeceğini” söylemektedir.

Here is my source for imam supervisor on eduactional department: http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=60233

Here is my source for imam supervisor on hospital:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/4851097.asp?m=1&gid=69&srid=3041&oid=4

This newspaper article mentions the planned ban on alcohol:
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2005/12/30/siyaset/axsiy02.html

Here is an article that mentions a moscue advertising their marriage office:
http://www.bianet.org/2006/08/24/84113.htm

I could go on for ages. The thing is that with their actions they are alowing radicals to spread and they encourage radicalism. They are just hiding right now but they have many times said things like changing secularism to a new system.

Ömer Dinçer, undersecretary of the prime ministry said that the republic and secularism should give way for Islamic coalescence. The high court ruled that his views were agains the constitution. Source:
http://www.hukuki.net/haber/index.asp?id=601

Armegon,
Your post should have explained to anyone that did not understand why AK Party (or any other fundamental islamic polticians) cannot become President.
And for those that keep pointing out Erdogan was elected PM, remember, he had less than 40% of the vote. So a majority of Turks did not vote for him.
I will agree that he has been OK as PM, but as President, never.

KeithL.....
My words are very clear,and no need to prediction.

İ didnt say i hate Atatürk,i didnt even talk about him.
İ said in any case Army should NOT threat a governmet.

İ said army SHOULD be ruled by governmet.

So,where did you get the idea of me hate Atatürk from ?!

Why do you all leave the main issue and talk about branches ?

Who said we are discussing the 4 laws or something like that ?

The point was,a government has been elected by people should only rule both people and army.

İf the people dont want it,then dont elect it !

Tell me again,where did you get the Atatürk issue from ?

Does anyone say something you dont agree with,you accuse him/her of hating Atatürk even if the issue not been brought up ?!

Canli, I'm not saying you hate Ataturk. You may not even know who Ataturk is. But it is true that the very pro-islamists hate Ataturk. When you go to other Islamic countries and discuss Turkish politics, they speak of Ataturk as their worst enemy.

KeithL.....
My words are very clear,and no need to prediction.

İ said in any case Army should NOT threat a governmet.

(By turkish constitution, this is armys duty.)

İ said army SHOULD be ruled by governmet.

(Turkey is different than other countries. It is armys responsibility to protect the constitution and the people from the government)

The point was,a government has been elected by people should only rule both people and army.

(37% of people voted for erdogan for PM, not President. An islamist cannot become President. Its that simple)

Many Islamic countries are hundreds of years behind civilization. In many Islamic countries females are considered like objects to be bought and sold. They have no rights at all. They have no right to chose the man they are going to marry, no right to vote, no right for inheritance, no right for modern education, no right to work, no right to chose where they live, no right to divorce (asking for divorce would be main reason for killing them).

In many Islamic countries even a cow is considered more valuable than girls. Females are not even counted as children of a family. In many of those countries if you ask a man how many children he has he might say five. This means he has five sons. They don't count the girls. Girls will be sold when they become 13.

Ottomans have ruled those countries for hundreds of years. Those are our neighbours. We have a responsibility in those lands to help our neighbours. We need to help them to become more modern.

For now let's solve our domestic problems but in the future we are going to help our neigbours. Don't worry, with time we'll fix them.

None of this matters now. With early elections in June, Erdogan and Gul are finished. And they only have themselves to blame.

I agree that Erdogan has been OK as PM. But the hundreds of thousands of demonstrators proves that the people do not want to see him or Gul as President. And it also proves how much the people trust Buyukanıt.

Comparing Dubai to typical Arab cities is ridiculous. Lets look at damascus, tehran, bahgdad, cairo, these kinds of cities for comparison.

Cairo lives under islamic law and is living the way most cities did 50 years ago.

Yeah, Cairo may look like so, but at least it is still called a city. So what about Istanbul, the least developed but the biggest village of the world?

I am not an expert at all on cairo.
But, here are a few of my observations.
I stay at Nile hilton and other hotels similar in that area. These hotels have bars and casinos. My egyptian colleagues are not allowed to join me. You must have a foreign passport to enter.
The only place I know where there are pubs is on the island where the consualtes are. So alcohol is not so freely available.
Segregated subways. Women in front only, no men.

I am not saying these are bad laws for cairo. but i donot wish to see them come to istanbul.

Nude beaches in Cairo? Did I miss soemthing?

I have no intention to live in the jungle anyway. Did I call it the least developed village? Oh, I have changed my mind! The most dangerous jungle in the world! No thanks!

What about my egyptian colleagues not being able to join me in certain hotel restaurants? Is this the islamic freedom you are speaking of?

We have gone off topic here.
New elections are coming in june. The people will speak. Turks will have their democracy.

Keithl, stop fighting with canlı and quasimodo. If they are capable to think like us, we would not having this argument at first place. They will learn that democracy is not a vehicle, it is an aim! Lets wait to the next election

You are right aslı, my last post stated as such.
And not arguing I hope. Sharing and explaining ideas.
Except for Quasi. I'm willling to pass a law banning him from istanbul...

I really don't understand why the claim in the title of this thread is talking about Turkey turning its back on democracy! I thought that democracy is when people control the government (not the other way round) and protest when they don't like what the government is doing. That's exactly what Turkish people are doing right now and that's what democracy ought to be like. They proved that their democratic system is more mature then it might seem to be.

İt turned its back when army threated not when people talk
thats much difference catwoman.

They are dying for you. They are waiting your borders while you are scratching in your comfy bed.( you is not a person here, no offence) They have right to say something for their myrtyr's sake. Have some respect or do not go gallipoli for crying.

Islam has some issues with female sexuallity??!!
İ suggest you read about İslam erdinc before you discuss it!
From a reliable source i mean !

Of course its nature to be turned on,not bad,but bad not to control it,or else we'll be like animal !

And where do you want women to stand in this picture ?
Leave an empty desk and stand there behide the man ?!!

The desks on that picture are devided by sex as men's desk (bay veznesi) and womens desk (bayan veznesi). Not the poeple on that picture but the mayor of Istanbul led by AK party is doing wrong here.

This is a water payment desk of Istanbul council and is an official department.

You might think this is very normal but according their belive men and women need to be separated everywhere including classrooms. They want to start the separation in first class in primary schools.

Maybe those who claim to know a lot about other Islamic countries will tell us about their primary schools. Are girls and boys sitting mixed or not? Tell the truth.

catwoman,what kind of system that would be then?ruled by 2 forces the governmet and the army ,watching over each other ?!
İf people dont want the governmet,then people dont choose it.
Army only lead war or revolutions and must be supported by people,or else it will fall down too!
So its in people hands,and its people's choice to have it the way they want,not the army supporting direction against another.

Canlı,
In the Islamic countries you have been so far how were boys and girls sitting at primary schools? Where they sitting mixed or separated? I'm sure you are going to dance around this question and wont give any information.

Hey people,i live here ...

Our schools are mixed boys and girls together from KG up till college.

There are only some girls school which are not much,and they are Nuns schools
Which of course are chrisian schools and run by Nuns,but they also accept Muslims,and there are lots of Muslims girls there.

And there are boys schools,which rulled by preasts,christians too and also accept Muslims.

As for Muslims schools ,they are not much at all,and contain both boys and girls in same class but not sitting together.

İf you want to get the picture right.

From 20 mixed school 'boys and girls sitting beside each other'
There is 2 Christian schools,and 1 Muslims school.

And catwoman ,the term girlfriend,and boyfriend is very much relevant,for how would they have boyfriend or girlfriend and they dont meet !

And now as i said its starting at a very young age too,thanks to the Media again!

10 yrs ago were only between kids from 13 till up,now the scale is coming down!

This picture shows a classroom in Pakistan. I think classrooms in Islamic countries are generally like this. Pictures on
this page on the other hand, were taken ten days ago in Turkia. These are primary school students aged from 5 to 12 gathered together for a birthday celabration of the Islamic prophet. The event was carried in a sports hall with permission and attendance of local authorities and instead with out national anthem it started by kids reading Quran.

People from poor backgrounds who have not much hope for a better life have reserved their hopes for the afterlife and have found consolidation in religion.

Here is a picture

PRIMARY Stage

There are some trips too if you check on the site,and its in English.

And here is a picture from an islamic language school,and notice the girl who is not veiled standing between the others in the Final term party,and she was choosen to sing with them

El Nozha School

And another,

Saint Fatima

And there is something i want to tell you,whether islamic or not,but women tend to be together ,specially in crowded places.
Or in parties,social events.

İf you notice,you would find women leting men together and they gather up to dedikodu .
Same is every where,at schools,girls prefer to sit beside girls,to talk,to share some girly things.
To talk about boys!

Or do you expect them to do that with boys ?!

When there is a line,to pay something ,i prefer to stand behind woman not a man.
Woman is an social creature,we can talk together in no time,and kill time.
Unlike men,it would be boring to stand in lines with them !

Maybe not logic to you,but thats true !

Thanks Canli, we can also read about Islam in Egypt and women's rights in Egypt from other sources... that seem to slightly contradict with what you're saying.

Again Canli, you are missing the original point. We don't care how Islamic law effects peoples lives in other countries. If you are happy with it,i am happy for you.
But here in Turkey, the people have rejected it. And will continue to reject it it.
The voting in June will show this. Early elections is what the people wanted, and what the militray wanted.

Another question: I read earlier that the Supreme Court said the last vote was invalid because there were only 361 instead of 367 members of Parliament when voting. But now I read that the AK party wants a new round of votes, starting tomorrow. With Gül still as their candidate. Anyone who can explain?

Erdogan may ask for a new vote in parliment, but it will be impossible to get 2/3 vote needed.

Well then there's no problem is there? If people change their minds and don't like their government then they will just have to elect another one next time. It's clearly not healthy for the army to meddle, and if you think it is then YOU join them in overthrowing the government YOU go get yourself killed for absolutely silly reasons.

I'm sorry but I think you guys are paranoid. Turkey's been secular for ages now hows that goign to change? and like caliptrix said look at what the government has accomplished since they came to power, instead of looking at their personal beliefs. It's thanks to them bridges are slowly being built towards joining the EU at some point. Surely taking a more religious course would be a huge contradiction and ruin all of that.

The most ironic thing of all Canli is that your country, Egypt, has no democracy at all. Your presidential elections have had only one candidate since the early 80's. And Mubarik is grooming his son to become the next king....I mean president.

I hope one day all the muslim countries will come to the point of Turkey. I wish they had the same army, the army of Mustafa Kemal who would fight for the democracy and secularism, but unfortunately the armies of the islamic countries are the guardians of the İslamic regime and they haven't had a leader like ours, so it's very difficult for the poor people protest against these islamic governments. There's not an army that would back them.
We watch the new measures taken in İran. They have even banned the western hair styles for men.
Look at the poor girl being arrested by the islamic police http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj7_q97dqek

I am really very sorry about the peoples of these countries, I admire iranian, arabian cultures and languages, but because of their islamic traditions applied in their countries and because of the arab leaders who sell their country to USA they are ages behind. These people don't deserve to live like this.

It has been a little out of topic, but even if Turkey is a democratic secular country, it's not a France, there's always a need to protect our current regime, because there's always a possiblity to be like İran. It's not realistic to say that Turkey can never be an İslamic country, these islamists organize so well that it can be very late to fix it back.

You know,now i understood that you dont know anything about Muslim countries but you are still talking about them !
I dont mean just you ,mltm but all !

What should really be called Muslim Country is the only country is applying the islamic law "Shari'a"

And that goes for only 2 country Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Other countries not using Shari'a in their laws most of them using the French law as main recourse.

Therefor they are not ruled by an Islamic government.
Same in Egypt,our law is form from our needs,and from the French law as main recourse

As for our army,Elhamdulillah we have a strong army protecting our nation,our borders from our enemies.

And lead many wars ends just 30 yrs ago by Peace agreement between us.

To tell you the differences between the countries it needs lots of time and space,and this thread not its place.
You really need much to know,for you are mixing things up.

If you search you will get an idea,and if any need further information PM me,and i will help if i can.

Canli, Egypt doesnt have real elections. How can you say your country emulates french government?

Yes, I agree that we lack a lot of knowledge about muslim countries, we consider most of them equal to İran, and see all the muslims equal to talibans.
And we including the turks are prejudiced against especially the arabs. We consider all of the arabs as a one nation. We look down upon them and refuse to learn more about them. All of my turkish friends made fun of me when I told them I was going out with an arab.
I have noticed this lack of knowledge in me and lately I have started to be more interested in these countries and people. That doesn't mean that I admire their unseculiar regimes, but there are other things to admire.

How can you criticize Turkish government, when your government doesnt have real elections? This is specifically what I am asking.

I think the picture is real. The numbering is understandable.
It says:
women's desk 1
women's desk 2
men's desk 1
men's desk 2

faşizm susmanın memnuniyeti değil söylemenin mecburiyetidir.

Well, on Sunday 6th we all know more. A new try to elect a president.

Regardless of the outcome and our beliefs I hope we can all agree that we don't wish this to turn into violence.

I just want to say that I feel very proud of Turkish people who had the brains and guts to stand up against corruption and political manipulation. If only the Americans and other nations had the guts to do the same thing, god, we would have a so much better world.

"AFTER: Working with infamous terrorists"

Hehe! Fantastic! You know, femme fatal, labelling Yasser Arafat as a terrorist no longer works. This is true with Nelson Mandela! Both are already heroes.

C'mon femme fatal! Mandela, like Afarat, was yesterday's terrorist!

leander,
im forced, i have absolutely no choice but to say: BRAVO!
you're genious! i bow my little head before you!
excellent post!
may God bless turkey with people like you!
i absolutely loved your post!

Thank you femme_fatal
Evidently there are MANY people that think and feel the way i do,i knew that they are out there, but seing the incredible crowds on the 14th and 29th april, DESPITE the discouragement of the rally by the mass media, gave me even more hope for our future.

On Sunday another rally, this time in Izmir! On Mothers Day, millions will visit Zübeyde Hanim's (Atatürk's Mother) house.