Turkey |
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Turkey cannot turn its back on democracy
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70. |
30 Apr 2007 Mon 11:41 pm |
Anyone here heard about trojan horse? Until you in the castle you need to be look and behave nice. Once you are in, swords can be use! Read about Iran, learn how they became like this. Not with swords, not with face to face fighting. Democratic elections, after a couple years; you are not sure that, milkman knocking on your door. First of all they shot the pilots at 3 am in their home so any of the precious fighter Plane could not escape!
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71. |
30 Apr 2007 Mon 11:49 pm |
And somebody surely recall about adultery law. And alcoholic beverages at bosphorus, mosque in taksim square(like every mosque is overcrowded, needed new ones. We can pray everywhere if we are Muslims.) And remember he has charged about being against this country.They dont force u anything by now. They are busy with getting their sons rich(one of them killed a famous singer while walking on sidewalk,has not been charged), selling all Turkey has. When done, we will be next! I am not ready, please you first!
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72. |
30 Apr 2007 Mon 11:58 pm |
Nobody needs to worry about secularism in Turkey. Just see the steep erosion of moral values in society; what kind of tv programmes are on the top in the ratings, the role models of the teenagers in society, the pornographic newspaper (Posta) outselling all the meanstream newspapers. Secularism is definitely not in danger. Secularism is nil itself without democracy. Some within the army who deem society's love of army on themselves have had the temerity to rape democracy. Why are the staunch defenders of secularism keeping silent?
"Democracy is really cool when it is for me only?"
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73. |
01 May 2007 Tue 02:45 am |
Quoting azade: Something that I can't underatand...
What kind of power does the president have compared to the PM? When the army is concerned about AKP why did they allow Erdoğan to become PM? |
i'm a little confused on this myself as i have read conflicting reports on the president's actual roles.
some sources say that the president is only a figure head and has limited power compared to the prime minister who controls parliament and the government. others have said that the president has a veto on all laws and appoints many senior figures within the establishment.
traditionally, the president is a major upholder of the separation of religion and state. atatürk founded turkey as a strictly secular state. i would think that this wouldn't continue to occur if the president is a deeply religious person...it would be a conflict of interest so to speak.
one more thing to note is that if gül is elected as president, the prime minister AND the president of turkey will be from the same political party. some people say that this would make it easier for the ak party to push an "islamic" agenda into turkey.
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74. |
01 May 2007 Tue 12:51 pm |
I don't care if the europeens or other super democratic countries think Turkey is an anti-democratic country, because that means whether they don't know enough about Turkey or they are in favor of an Islamic Turkey or a weaker Turkey.
Turkey is a very particular country, Turkish nation is a very particular nation, in order to understand what's been really going on in Turkey, you have to look really very close to Turkey as close as an individual living in Turkey.
In our constitution, the things that can never be changed or even questioned are clear, the priciples of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and in the constitution the role of the turkish army is also very clear, "guardian of the Atatürk's regime". What is Atatürk's regime? It's a secular democratic republic. So, now you're calling Turkey an anti-democratic country? The europe is calling us anti-democratic? What is it to them? We don't want to enter the European Union anymore. They think that for us entering the EU is a matter of life and death.
All the world has seen what our people can do in case of an attack to our values. The instituion which turkish people trust the most is the army.
"The turkish army belongs to the turkish nation and the turkish nation belongs to the turkish army."
Every turkish person borns as a soldier, we don't need any democracy lessons of a Union that we will never enter into and of which imperialistic members would finish us if we had never done the independence war of Mustafa Kemal. Now, they consider it anti-democratic to follow our leader.
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75. |
01 May 2007 Tue 01:23 pm |
Quoting KeithL: I dont know where you get your information from. People bussed in from all regions of turkey for both events, not only Istanbul and Ankara. And I'm sure you are aware that Istanbul and Ankara are the two largest cities. Between them, they represent about 25% of the country's population.
And soon, there will be a rally in Germany by Turks who live there, also against AK Party.
Look who is against the AK party gaining the presidency. It is the well educated Turks. University staff, business leaders, senior military staff. Do you think these people are stupid?
Not living in Turkey, where do you form your opinion on this subject?
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İ get my information from Turkish people not only live in İstanbul and Ankara .
And i dont really understand what you aim for .
Do you say only well educated people, University staff, business leaders, senior military staff have rights for election and choose who is their leaders,and other people NOT ?!!
İ dont think all those people are stupid,i think everyone entitled to his opinion whether he is well educated or NOT!
Beside everyone of those got his own agenda which indicate his opinion.
And rally in Germany by Turks who are living there away from their home land not feeling the achievement that their current government which been elected by poeple of Türkiye did,what would that say ?!!!
And i wonder those Turk who live in Germany where do they form their opinion about this subject from ?!!!
You are living in İstanbul,then where do you form your opinion about what other people who live outside think ?!
İ guess those are not logic questions,right ?!
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76. |
01 May 2007 Tue 01:42 pm |
Quoting erdinc: We will fix the problems. Don't you worry. Those Arab admirers in Turkia can be sure they will pay for their actions. |
İ dont understand who you refer to by saying Arab admirers,surely not the army
Then you must've meant the government,but i didnt see any action or anything from the governmet toward Arab countries more than normal between countries.
All the government interest in one direction EU .
Beside,this sentence is very much racism to me really.
Who admire Arab will pay for it.
How nice,that too is what secularism said ?
İ thought you with the government not against it,specially that you represent it as i understood!
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77. |
01 May 2007 Tue 02:42 pm |
Quoting janissary: I really dont understand... if they are really against secularism and modernism. why they worked very hard for joining EU and succceed to get a date... |
Even themselves are confused. Within their party there is not a unity I think. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan comes from a party that is really islamic and before he had very radical ideas like changing the state completely to an islamic state, but later he established his own party and gained the sempathy of the people using both religion (not in a radical way) and also giving promises to make Turkey enter in the european union. It was a very big promise since the people believed everything would get better, especially economically.He might also have understood that only with the support of european union and US, he could get to power. And one of their biggest enemy is the army which is really secular and does not let any religious party rule the country. And the EU and the USA do not want the turkish army be so powerful. Maybe, the EU is only tactics for T. Erdoğan because years ago in his speeches he had said "he would use every possible way in order to accomplish their dreams (islamic dreams)" , he had also said, "democracy was just a tool for them to be successful" and with the help of EU, they can get to every possible high position. He also later said he had changed his old ideas, and he became a conservatrive democratic.
I think now he is being used by US in the plans of making the middle east a union of moderate islamic states. And the real secular democrats cannot trust Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, because it is not clear what he wants to do.
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78. |
01 May 2007 Tue 04:43 pm |
First of all i am sorry for my English because i tried to translate quickly .
Portrait and some Declarations of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan through 1994-2006
*The time when he was the Major of İstanbul;
“Elhamdülillah we are the supporters of Sheriaâ€(21.11.1994 Milliyet)
“I am against the celebration of New yearâ€(19.12.1994 Sabah)
“I didnt go to dervish lodge(tekke), i went to dergahâ€(22.11.1997 Gözcü)
“No need to stand like a stake when showing respect to Atatürk†(12.5.1994 Hürriyet)
“Every 10th of November people make useless fussâ€(14.11.1994 Hürriyet)
“Alcohol should be bannedâ€(1.5.1996 Hürriyet)
“We will change İstanbul into Medinaâ€(Akis)
“All the schools in Türkiye will be changed into İmam Hatip(school for raising İmams) schoolsâ€(17.9.1994 Cumhuriyet)
“The colour of green(the colour of sidewalk) is civilisationâ€(25.6.1994)
“Only Imams should marry people officiallyâ€(9.5.1995 Milliyet)
“I am at the side of to open TBMM(Parliament) with praysâ€(When he was the major of İstanbul, every year opening of municipality council made by prays instead of Independence March. And again after an opening of the council, he gave this declaration)(8.1.1996 Milliyet)
“I am the Imam of İstanbulâ€(8.1.1995 Hürriyet)
“Advertisement of swimsuit is a exploitation of lustâ€(6.3.1996 Hürriyet)
“National lottery is a crueltyâ€(29.9.1994 Hürriyet)
“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip.These days are so closeâ€(5.2.1996 Akit)
“There is no need of Kemalizm or a regime similar to Kemalizm in the future of countryâ€
“Mosques are our barracks, minarets are our bayonets, mümins(believer) are our soldiersâ€
“Democracy is not a aim, only a vehicle for us. We are affilied to democracy until we reach our aimsâ€
“Democracy is a tram for us. When we came to stopping place we want, we will get offâ€
*He was speeching to the public at meeting.
“A cow is sitting on the middle of our way, closing our way, blocking us to reach our range. We will remove that cow from our way at first with words gently, then we will remove somehow by the help of you†(Here cow means Secular Republic and Revolutions of Atatürk.)
*Again at a meeting
“Turkey should be divided into states. And some authority of central governance should be given to these states. And Majors should be the most authorized person. And at that regions everykind of education should also be under control of themâ€(is the same expressions of dividers like PKK)
“You can’t be secular and muslim both. You must choose to be a muslim or to be a secular. It is impossible, both of them can not be togetherâ€
“Our reference is İslam. Our only goal is Islamic Stateâ€
“If you say “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene†others have right to say “Ne mutlu kürdüm â€â€(a reminder from the declaration of Turkish Military “Who is against the conception of Atatürk’s motto “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyeneâ€, are the enemies of Turkish Republic(27.4.2007) )
“1.5 billion of world of Islam are waiting impatiently to stand up of our muslim people. We will stand up and this rebellion will startâ€
The date of wedding invitation of his son “29 Zilkade 1421â€(using Arabic takvim)
*After he became PM
“I am marketing Turkiye. For us given money is important. We market and sell everything, who give money, can take every worth of Turkiyeâ€
“They insist to say secularism is going to be removed, of course can be removed if the people wantâ€
“Women can sit where they want, it is none of your businessâ€( Said to a journalist at a meeting of AKP in Kars asking why women and men sitting apart (at different places))
“The salary given to me is too low(not enough), how much salary do you takeâ€(said to the PM of Germany)
“There is a identity problem in Türkiye. And the concept of “Turk†should be commented as a sub-identity. Anyone who wants then can say “I am a Turkâ€â€
“People who are walking with the alleged flags of PKK are wrong but low flight of F-16s of Turkish Army is also wrong, both are wrongâ€(He equals PKK with Turkish Army)
“We will be taken out of Cyprus likewise how Syria is taken out of Lebonan, they say “ leave out of Cyprus and we will do it like a sheep†â€
“It is impossible for one person to say i am both muslim and secularâ€
“Did you drink too much? Your mouth smells alcoholâ€(said to the ambassodor of Austria)
“Stop and listen!...Stop and listen!...9 months 10 days!â€(said to a citizen at his speech)
“Look here! Do you think this nation need to work for you all the timeâ€(said to the farmers in Erzurum)
“Is this your job to give a judgement about turban?, This is the job of ulema. What ulema says, it is rightâ€( said to the Human rights court of Europe)
“Who are you? Ulema can give judgement about turbanâ€(said to Danıştay(state coucil court). A few weeks after this declaration, a radical terrorist attacked to the judges of Danıştay who gave judgement about turban and killed one of them, injured othersâ€
“Don’t shake your hand and arm! Every part of your body shaking!â€(said to member of parliament)
“Ulan terbiyesizlik yapma! Artistlik yapma ulan! Hadi ananı da al git buradanâ€(said to a farmer in Mersin, its a rude expression so translation is difficult)
After hundreds of placement hadn’t approved by President of Republic, he decided to execute these places by proxies and said(target is President of Republic):
“We don’t do anything contrary to law, there is a rule like this in Sheria law.â€
“What can(will) i talk to that woman?â€(said to mother of a martyr)
“Military service is not a place to lay down and restâ€( said to the relatives of martyr)
“Call that impostor, What does he want?â€( said to a citizen in Germany whose money stolen by green capital…Also at the same meeting he made the ambassador of Turkish Republic booed by people.)
He abased YOK president Prof. Dr. Erdoğan Teziç by saying he is not celever in an argo way.
“I am guaranty to him, i trust him like my father, i believe in him as how i believe in meâ€
(said at Parliament(TBMM), he became guaranty to Yasin El-Kadı, Then who is Yasin El-Kadı?His name is listed as a sponsor of El-kaide by United Nations)
When PKK ceased fire:
“And then we don’t do military operations†(He is making jest to PKK)
He abased the former president of Turkish Republic of North Cyprus Rauf Denktaş.
“They are shouting as they are in a football match, these are not nice thingsâ€( said to the people who were shouting “Türkiye is secular, will remain secularâ€)
At AKP General Congress:
. Şerefsizler(dishonests)
. Bizim çocuklar açmı kalsın be!
. Kes ulan sesini(Shut up)
. Sana üç nokta koyarım
. Otur ulan oturduğun yerde, herşeye burnunu sokma
*And the others:
Before the elections of 2002 and after he just became PM
“I changed developing myselfâ€
In the 4th year of his government:
“I never changed. Islamic opinions never changeâ€
Lastly his oath against to Republic in 1980’s;
“I am affilied to Muhammed and muslim ummah. Türkiye has become a irreligous, secular state. I make oath(swear) on my religion, Allah and every holy things that i will devote myself to make a war against irreligous secular state of Mustafa Kemal, i will prevent all the irreligous laws of Mustafa Kemal to be performed and i will try to form a state of Sheria†Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.
When we look at his some declarations through this 12 year when he was a major of İstanbul and when he is now PM;
All can see that he is loyal to his oath in 1980’s and working and trying hardly to perform his oath today. One who can’t or don’t want to see these actions, maybe those are blind or anything else.
“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip. These days are so closeâ€(5.2.1996 Akit)
Which civil society organization has attened to the meeting at Çağlayan and which are not;
Attended: CHP, DSP, MHP, ANAP, DYP, GP, SHP, İP, BBP, HP, DİSK, TÜRK-İŞ, KESK, BAROLAR, ODALAR etc.
Not attended: AKP, SP, DEHAP, TKP, ÖDP, EMEP.
Also there will be a new meeting on 13th of May in İzmir Gündoğdu.
p.s: Who says economy is good, is also wrong. They took Türkiye with 220 billion dollars debt. And now the debt is 480 billion dollars. It is a record in whole history of Republic. Although they sold every worthies and big companies (Türk Telekom, Tüpraş, Erdemir, Seka, and so many KİTs), where has these moneys gone?. Let me remind some bid defraudations(60 big bid defraudations files are awaiting.) which are given to their partners to make them powerful. Türkiye’s ecomony stands up on hot money at stock exchange that belongs 70 % of foreign investors who make money with speculations not make any investments.. And how can one think that when the barrel cost of petroleum increases and then inflation decreases? Can one call this is an healthy economy?
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79. |
01 May 2007 Tue 05:07 pm |
People knew these facts and people voted for him knowing these facts. I don't like AKP as well but I am against a military takeover as well. So wait until the summer and vote for the people you want and make sure that they are secular if that your biggest worry. This is what happens in democratic countries.
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80. |
01 May 2007 Tue 08:02 pm |
Quoting ruthless87: People knew these facts and people voted for him knowing these facts. I don't like AKP as well but I am against a military takeover as well. So wait until the summer and vote for the people you want and make sure that they are secular if that your biggest worry. This is what happens in democratic countries. |
It's not just a "democratic" country, it's also a "secular" country which can never be changed even in a democratic way.
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