Turkey |
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headscarf was still a social problem
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| 10. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 04:49 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: The only people create this as a problem yet again the politicians, other higher state managers of Turkey.
There is no problem with the society.. there are people who wear and there are poeple doesnt...
its just holding the society busy with this topic and see whats going on behind of what they are doing...
the problem is that... woman who wears headscarf cannot enter some public areas especially to schools...
the problem is not that if they can decide theirselves or not...
for true analysis.. you have to buy your tickets and travel all around turkey and ask every single woman wears headscarf 'why are you using this?'... and then you can understand whats the reality... |
Even then i think you would come up with more questions than answers.
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| 11. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 09:55 pm |
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Edited (3/9/2009) by peacetrain
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| 12. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:10 pm |
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Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage!
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues.
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| 13. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:16 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage!
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues. |
Wow! that was a scream!!
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| 14. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:31 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Wow! that was a scream!! |
No, it's not a scream, Sui!  I just can't believe how some people can completely ignore all these issues and speak as if being a muslim woman, especially in a muslim country, is such a fairy tale. 
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| 15. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 10:40 pm |
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Are we discussing Muslim countries or Turkey?? Try to preserve some dignity....and don't fall off your rocker.
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| 16. |
09 Jan 2008 Wed 11:54 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage!
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues. |
I wasn’t ignoring any facts and, of course, I know there are many oppressed women out there , and they don’t all wear headscarves. I understand everything you are saying and I know it is a reality for many women, but don’t ignore the fact that there are many strong minded Muslim women in Turkey, who make decisions for themselves (when the law allows it). I was sharing personal experience, not making a judgement or trying to disprove anything. Perhaps I should have acknowledged that there is another side. Just because I didn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t mean I don’t believe it happens, I do. I wasn’t debating, I wasn’t denying some (many?) Muslim women are oppressed, I was sharing personal experience and I have many others too. Perhaps I may have been a little too casual in my post, which may have looked as though I was trivialising the issue – purely unintentional.
I wasn’t trying to disprove anything you said at all. It is sad, what goes on in some areas, but there are stories of enlightenment out there if you look for them and the more they are aired the more some women may gain some strength or hope.
I have read that if the headscarf is allowed, in all areas, in Turkey then women who do not wear the scarf will feel pressured into wearing it. I myself don’t really understand this point of view because all the change in the law will do (maybe I’m being too simplistic or naive) is allow women who wear scarves, to wear them everwhere they go. I have Turkish friends, living in Turkey, some wear the scarf, some don’t. Those that do are mainly teachers and they remove their scarves when they get to work and replace them when they leave. A change in the law will mean they will no longer need to compromise themselves and will be able to wear their scarves all the time. It will also mean that more women will remain in the education system and also fewer will seek education abroad.
In my view (and this is only my view) the Government in Turkey is hesitant about allowing the scarf because if they do, there will be many who cry “Islamistâ€, in today’s climate. But surely the Government would be allowing freedom of choice in Turkey.
No matter how much people believe Muslim women are “convinced†into wearing headscarves, the fact remains that there are many women who read the Qur’an for themselves and interpret/decide for themselves on what it means to cover and lengthen garments. There are also websites out there in cyberspace that have been established by Muslim women, for Muslim women, or anyone else who cares to visit them. Some of them are quite radical. There are Muslim women out there fighting for what they want. This is not to deny what you have said btw and neither am I attempting to dissuade you from your opinion, as it as you make valid points, but as you know, the issue isn’t one dimensional.
In recent weeks there has been debate about the nature of debate Just as debate can involve two opposing sides trying to win an argument, the word debate can been deliberate or consider. Just because someone puts forward a point to consider, it doesn’t mean it is an exclusive opinion held by them. As I said in the beginning, perhaps I should have made myself clear.
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| 17. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 12:15 am |
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Peace train, thanks for clarifying yourself! Perhaps I'm a bit sensitized to posts in which people say that muslim women aren't oppressed . There are people who dig out some examples of women who became successful and use as an argument against the widespread abuse of women in islam, so I get frustrated easily by such posts. While there are some exceptional examples of very strong women, it is extremely alarming what's the fate of the majority and I think muslims should talk about it and be furious about it.
Anyways, headscarf in Turkey - yes, from a democratic standpoint, it should be a personal choice. At the same time, I think it's a valid concern that women who don't wear headscarf might be under pressure to wear it, as we all know some people like to moralize and demonize those who don't follow the main religion. I'm afraid that the oppression would be reversed, not in a legal way, but by the society. It's a difficult decision, but I'd prefer if there was no governmental interference in such matters.
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| 18. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 12:16 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage!
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues. |
The irony is that girls with head scarf are not allowed to enter universities where they can have an education and become free individuals. You can not liberate these girls by banning the head scarf.
I think you do not know Turkey very well. Because there are many women with head scarf who are happy with their religious beliefs and they are not abused by men. If you are blaming Islam for patriarchy, you can see the same things in Christian societies too.
So make sure if you are against Islam or patriarhy in general.
lastly, you are saying "I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs" OK but there is something missing here: in turkey nowadays men decide that women SHOULD NOT wear head scarf. So again if you are againts patriarchy, you should first talk about that ban on head scarf. after that we can talk about headscarf itself.
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| 19. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 12:38 am |
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There are two questions that bother me about headscarfs. Other than the following two questions - I can not care less if they decide to close their eyes too: If they bump into me, I will hit back.
Question 1 :
WHERE EXACTLY IS THE LIMIT?..SHALL WE EVENTUALLY HAVE HIGHSCHOOL - MIDDLE SCHOOL - KINDERGARTEN GIRLS IN TURBAN TOO?
Question 2 :
SAY GIRLS IN TURBAN ARE ALLOWED INTO UNIVERSITIES (I EXPECT SYMBOLS RELATING TO OTHER RELIGIONS WILL ALSO BE FREE, NO?): WHAT DO WE DO WITH THESE GIRLS AFTER THEY GRADUATE?
IF RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS BECOME FREE TO DISPLAY EVEN IN GOVERNMENT OFFICES, SAY IN LEGAL COURTS, HOW WILL ONE OF OUR TURBANED MOSLEM LADIES FEEL IN COURT - AFTER HAVING A CAR ACCIDENT WITH ANOTHER LADY WEARING THE GOLDEN STAR OF DAVID - UPON DISCOVERY THAT THE LADY JUDGE ON THE BENCH IS WEARING AN EVEN BIGGER STAR OF DAVID?
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| 20. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 12:53 am |
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Quoting kaddersokak: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage!
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues. |
The irony is that girls with head scarf are not allowed to enter universities where they can have an education and become free individuals. You can not liberate these girls by banning the head scarf.
I think you do not know Turkey very well. Because there are many women with head scarf who are happy with their religious beliefs and they are not abused by men. If you are blaming Islam for patriarchy, you can see the same things in Christian societies too.
So make sure if you are against Islam or patriarhy in general.
lastly, you are saying "I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs" OK but there is something missing here: in turkey nowadays men decide that women SHOULD NOT wear head scarf. So again if you are againts patriarchy, you should first talk about that ban on head scarf. after that we can talk about headscarf itself. |
With reference to a point kadersokak made, I have heard several stories first hand of young girls deciding to wear the scarf, but only putting it on when they are out of sight of their home, taking it off before they return home. Many parents are against their daughters wearing the scarf because they believe it will prevent them from furthering their education. Some decide against removing their scarves and either go abroad or do not enter the Turkish further education system. Some decide to remove their scarves for some time of the day in order to receive their education. Some decide to leave their scarf removed altogether rather than only during time in university (these women may decide to wear their scarves if the law is changed to allow scarves). Some women don't wish to wear the scarf and probably will not be persuaded otherwise even if the law is changed to allow it.
I can't visualize any more pressure being put on women who don't wear the scarf to wear it if the law changes, to allow (not enforce)it. The reason I can't visualize this is because changing the law doesn't change people's views and pro scarf people can pressurize others now, they don't have to wait for the law to change in order to stand in judgement of others.
Islam teaches that we must not judge others' decisions regarding practice. It is between the individual and God.
btw I wasn't being flippant in an earlier post when I asked for clarification regarding men wearing beards. Neither was I trying to divert the issue from that of the scarf. I genuinely wanted to know if it was a fact.
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