Turkey |
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headscarf was still a social problem
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| 20. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 12:53 am |
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Quoting kaddersokak: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: I have several friends who wear the scarf and they also "wear the trousers" in their marriage! 
I'm not sure of my facts and would like someone to clarify but, just as women are excluded from schools and some public places, are men with beards subject to the same restrictions? |
You may know several people who "wear the trousers" in their marriage, but you completely ignore the fact that a great majority of muslims, especially in muslim countries, not only don't allow women to be equal partners, but abuse them. That's at home. In the public sphere, women have NO voice and opportunities. Tell me, why is it that young women get flogged or killed by their FAMILIES for having sex before marriage? Why is it that we don't hear any muslims protesting against that? They defend it! Even women! It's appaling.
Please, don't quote some EXCEPTIONS as a disprove of the overwhelming oppression of women in the muslim world (no, it's not only muslim world that oppresses women!).
I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs; I have a lot against the society that convinces women to wear a scarf because they believe that it's women's responsibility to hide herself and live in fear in order not to be a victim of predatory men. And I have a lot against the culture that boxes women in roles that give them no control of their lives, makes them servants of men and work for men's success and that convinces women that it's their fault when men can't help themselves and show no basic human morals. Headscarf in the islamic world is a symbol of these issues. |
The irony is that girls with head scarf are not allowed to enter universities where they can have an education and become free individuals. You can not liberate these girls by banning the head scarf.
I think you do not know Turkey very well. Because there are many women with head scarf who are happy with their religious beliefs and they are not abused by men. If you are blaming Islam for patriarchy, you can see the same things in Christian societies too.
So make sure if you are against Islam or patriarhy in general.
lastly, you are saying "I have nothing really against women wearing scarfs. I do have a lot against MEN DECIDING for women whether they should wear scarfs" OK but there is something missing here: in turkey nowadays men decide that women SHOULD NOT wear head scarf. So again if you are againts patriarchy, you should first talk about that ban on head scarf. after that we can talk about headscarf itself. |
With reference to a point kadersokak made, I have heard several stories first hand of young girls deciding to wear the scarf, but only putting it on when they are out of sight of their home, taking it off before they return home. Many parents are against their daughters wearing the scarf because they believe it will prevent them from furthering their education. Some decide against removing their scarves and either go abroad or do not enter the Turkish further education system. Some decide to remove their scarves for some time of the day in order to receive their education. Some decide to leave their scarf removed altogether rather than only during time in university (these women may decide to wear their scarves if the law is changed to allow scarves). Some women don't wish to wear the scarf and probably will not be persuaded otherwise even if the law is changed to allow it.
I can't visualize any more pressure being put on women who don't wear the scarf to wear it if the law changes, to allow (not enforce)it. The reason I can't visualize this is because changing the law doesn't change people's views and pro scarf people can pressurize others now, they don't have to wait for the law to change in order to stand in judgement of others.
Islam teaches that we must not judge others' decisions regarding practice. It is between the individual and God.
btw I wasn't being flippant in an earlier post when I asked for clarification regarding men wearing beards. Neither was I trying to divert the issue from that of the scarf. I genuinely wanted to know if it was a fact.
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| 21. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:00 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Perhaps I'm a bit sensitized to posts in which people say that muslim women aren't oppressed . There are people who dig out some examples of women who became successful and use as an argument against the widespread abuse of women in islam, so I get frustrated easily by such posts. While there are some exceptional examples of very strong women, it is extremely alarming what's the fate of the majority and I think muslims should talk about it and be furious about it. |
Forum rule # 10. Any discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is strictly prohibited.
Forum rule #11. Postings about your religious beliefs; explaining any subject from a religious perspective; trying to influence others with your religious beliefs; getting religion involved in any subject and/or any subjects with religion as the main theme is prohibited. This is a religion - free website where all members should feel comfortable whether they are religious, atheist, agnostic or whatever.
catwoman, you do know better, don't you? However, here you go again demonizing the entire Islamic World. I hardly think you are an expert on Islamic jurisprudance or history, and I think you have no business doing that given your credentials and the forum rules. Issues you are talking about are part of the cultures and not sanctified by formal Islamic jurisprudance....of which I can not and would not get into on this forum, as it's clearly not the place for it.
If we are not supposed to discuss religion on this forum, then don't do it. If anyone trys to say anthing good about it, they they are accused of prosthelsysing.
However, prosthelsysing goes both ways. You seem to want to convert people away from Islam with your anti-Islamic posts. This is a double standard.
As I have said many many times before, it is a complicated issue, not one for a few careless thoughtless offhand quips.
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| 22. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:00 am |
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new subject: Why do most Turks were moustaches? National tradition?
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| 23. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:06 am |
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I am bearded.
Any one who wears a beard, in Islamic tradition, has to obey certain rules. I know some of the rules,
1. The beard should be of modest length, so that one is not mixed up with followers of other religions.
2, It should always be well trimmed, clean and suitably perfumed.
3. The beard should not rise in a way to close your cheeks (high cheek bones). (can you guess why?)
4. It is not obligatory for moslem men to wear beards, but it is recommended.
My own beard, unfortunately, fails on more than one count...
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| 24. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:13 am |
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Women who wear head scarves say that they adopt this dress as a sincere expression of their religious beliefs. The decision to wear (or not to wear39) dress such as head-covering in public is a form of personal and religious expression protected by various instruments, including Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and can only be limited where interests of the individual are outweighed by the state's legitimate concerns regarding, for example, public order, health or morality. In Turkey the wearing of the head scarf by students or elected representatives has not presented a threat to public order, health or morality, and it is difficult to imagine circumstances in which it might.
The head scarf issue has not been tested in the European Court of Human Rights either with respect to educational institutions or the workplace. However, the Turkish educational establishment is using the considerable prestige and authority of the Council of Europe to justify the ban. An evaluation of legal issues relating to the ban, believed to have been prepared by the Council for Higher Education (YÖK) and circulated to university rectors, as well as a statement by the Turkish Prime Minister's Office's High Coordinating Council for Human Rights, refer to and summarize an admissibility decision in the case of Lamiye Bulut.40
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/turkey2/Turk009-05.htm
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| 25. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:20 am |
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Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Perhaps I'm a bit sensitized to posts in which people say that muslim women aren't oppressed . There are people who dig out some examples of women who became successful and use as an argument against the widespread abuse of women in islam, so I get frustrated easily by such posts. While there are some exceptional examples of very strong women, it is extremely alarming what's the fate of the majority and I think muslims should talk about it and be furious about it. |
Forum rule # 10. Any discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is strictly prohibited.
Forum rule #11. Postings about your religious beliefs; explaining any subject from a religious perspective; trying to influence others with your religious beliefs; getting religion involved in any subject and/or any subjects with religion as the main theme is prohibited. This is a religion - free website where all members should feel comfortable whether they are religious, atheist, agnostic or whatever.
catwoman, you do know better, don't you? However, here you go again demonizing the entire Islamic World. I hardly think you are an expert on Islamic jurisprudance or history, and I think you have no business doing that given your credentials and the forum rules. Issues you are talking about are part of the cultures and not sanctified by formal Islamic jurisprudance....of which I can not and would not get into on this forum, as it's clearly not the place for it.
If we are not supposed to discuss religion on this forum, then don't do it. If anyone trys to say anthing good about it, they they are accused of prosthelsysing.
However, prosthelsysing goes both ways. You seem to want to convert people away from Islam with your anti-Islamic posts. This is a double standard.
As I have said many many times before, it is a complicated issue, not one for a few careless thoughtless offhand quips. |
Almeda, I don't think it's fair to highlight only Catwoman's words. I think most contributions on this thread (and other similar threads) have probably contravened the rules to some extent.
But you are right in what you say about the rules. The problem is many of the thread titles invite contravention of the rules, so perhaps there is another issue here. I think the moderators have a huge job on their hands because this site is so popular and therefore hard to "police". Perhaps more moderators are needed or perhaps it is the thread titles that need to be policed in the first place. Just a thought.
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| 26. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:25 am |
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I wonder why people do not prefer to discuss my imperfect islamic beard, rather than risky issues like religion, politics etc.. 
There must be ways to improve this beard !
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| 27. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:42 am |
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Quoting peace train: ..........Almeda, I don't think it's fair to highlight only Catwoman's words. I think most contributions on this thread (and other similar threads) have probably contravened the rules to some extent.
But you are right in what you say about the rules. The problem is many of the thread titles invite contravention of the rules, so perhaps there is another issue here. I think the moderators have a huge job on their hands because this site is so popular and therefore hard to "police". Perhaps more moderators are needed or perhaps it is the thread titles that need to be policed in the first place. Just a thought. |
The site definitly needs more moderation and more moderators! As for my highlighting catwoman's threads, we have a history,  and she was one of the administrators here, so I hold her to a higher standard and call her on it more than I would anyone else. Also, I just saw the thread. Perhaps I was too hard on her....but...
As for headscarves, I think much too much attention is given to the whole thing. What about women who are having chemo? Maybe a woman is having a bad hair day. All that is really going on is a fashion statement that has been given way too much significance, IMHO.
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| 28. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:45 am |
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or women or men who have cosmetic surgery like J. Lopez and Bulent Ersoy
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| 29. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:46 am |
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You are so right...I have a friend who has a nice beard, he does sort of a topiary job on it. It looks very nice. I suppose one has to have a rather dense growth of hair to get that effect.
So, do you have a topiary effect AlphaF?
Quoting AlphaF: I wonder why people do not prefer to discuss my imperfect islamic beard, rather than risky issues like religion, politics etc..
There must be ways to improve this beard ! |
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| 30. |
10 Jan 2008 Thu 01:50 am |
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Noo, I am perfect ! (ezcept the tousled beard)
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