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fashion in turkey
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30.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 01:21 pm

If only if it were so easy as it is summed up in your question. Turkey is a Muslim country. You know populationwise it is on a par with countries like the UK and Germany. There is not a single opinion about whether to ban veil.

Hijab is not singularly a religious rule but more like a tradition for countries like Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland etc. That means they complement the rules of their religion with the traditions of their own. Most urban people have roots in the village where in a rural life style, women must cover their hair and wear longer and more casual looking skirts. Since they also want to appear attractive, they often ornament their garments with emroidery, lacework or fabric painting. When you go to a village, you could see attractive young women doing their daily work. Like all aspects of their life, their garments look natural being the products of their own culture.

The West considers veil and hijab as strictly religious symbols and impose a ban on them on the ground that religious symbols are not allowed in public places. To what extent this conforms with the general attitude of the public in Europe is a matter of question. This is being done for the purpose of protecting children from stereotypes during their education. In Turkey, veil is considered as a religious symbol but those scarves worn by the villagers are not considered as such. As a matter of fact there is a huge difference between these two.

Islamists as they are called fought for the cause for decades calling for freedom to hijab. Their party is in power now. They have gained a number of rights but various institutions in Turkey including the military, the justice system and the local municipalities do their best to resist the transformation of the country into an Islamic regime.



Quoting Daydreamer



How come it´s applauded if a Muslim country does it, but it´s labelled as racist when a European country does the same?



Edited (8/8/2010) by vineyards

suejohnriley liked this message
31.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 01:42 pm

One of the underlying reasons of veil must be cutting off women from social life as much as possible. I don´t think this is an Islamic rule, most experts say there is not such a verse in Quran. It might be an Arabic tradition. While depicting the social life of the Arabs at the time of Mohammad, the Quran makes references to how people bury their daughters in sand to get rid of them. Maybe, they needed boys who could protect their families during a period dominated by bandits. As far as I know the rules of inheritance favoured the male sex even before Islam. It was customary to offer for the father of a girl to offer some sort of a drahoma to a man wishing to marry her. 

In a society, with such primitive traditions Islam must have been like a revolution. There a a number of ethical rules in Islam which are hard to obey. Having become obsessed with religion with an equally strong unethical background (from a Western point of view) which the Quran names as "the period of ignorance"  (cahiliye devri) Arabic people developed a dual thinking strategy. Since, everything is done in the name of Allah, there is no way for women to wake up to the reality. They feel they live their lives in line with the teachings of Quran. I can´t judge them nor can I change the world for them. No freedom is gained without striving for it. In order to strive for a cause you must have a burning desire to accomplish it. Presently, it is a different world with a different set of realities. The world will never be perfect. There will always be problems as long as there are people around.

Quoting barba_mama



The short summary, everything that gets effected by female hormones, should physically turn a hetero sexual male on (I´m not talking about personality here, just the body). Hair is something even young children have. Other parts of the body that do change after puberty, like the hips of a woman and other shapes, should be more sexually attractive.



Edited (8/8/2010) by vineyards

32.       vineyards
1954 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 02:13 pm

Here is a curious question. Do you think Santa Claus is a religious symbol? He is featured in cartoons, children´s books and man wearing Santa outfit freely walk in the streets. The outfit can be instrumental in hiding one´s identity or even sex. That´s why it is sometimes used by robbers.

If Santa is a religious symbol then Santa outfits must also be banned.


P.S. I am not even talking about the sisters in monasteries.

Jae liked this message
33.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 02:33 pm

In my opinion, a ban on veils in lower education is good. When a child of 10 years old starts to "hide her attractive features", I get deeply worried. It can never be a well thought choice, at the age of 10. That means that she wears it out of pressure from her environment. Faith should be something between the individual person and God. But in Turkey it is often a relationship between the individual person and what the local society (family, friends, neighbours) thinks of you. I don´t have a clear opinion on scarfs in universities in Turkey, because I think the people going to universities are well-thinking adults (in general ). I myself am used to seeing scarfs in the university, because it´s normal in Holland. But I do understand why it was banned in Turkey... on the other hand, I feel like adults can make their own choices, regarding their religion. As long as their face is visible... Hmm, difficult.


34.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 02:36 pm

By the way, this all reminds me of the lawsuit against Muazzez Cig 

35.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 03:30 pm


Quoting vineyards


Hijab is not singularly a religious rule but more like a tradition for countries like Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland etc.





and yet I haven´t seen women younger than 70 or 80 wearing a scarf in Poland. I remember my late grandma would sometimes wear one when it was too cold for her to go without anything on her head but it was too warm for a fur or woolen hat. And my late grandpa would consider it rude to go out of the house without a hat. In Turkey you have lots of young girls wearing scarves so it´s not a matter of distant past. Also, all these who wear scarves are Muslim, so it must have something to do with religion after all.

The Polish scarf had nothing to do with religion, it was a fashion statement (or as you said something typical for villagers that got imported into city life) although I have read somewhere that in the Middle Ages a married woman was required to wear a veil (not covering the face). It´s been a while since then though...



36.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 04:40 pm

Scarfs were very fashionable in the ´60s and ´70s as well, for Western women.

37.       armegon
1872 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 06:17 pm

Young religious girls usually wear tesettür style(hijab) in Turkey. Scarves(Eşarp) usually prefered by village girls as can be seen in the second pic posted by barba in her first post.Wink

Quoting Daydreamer

In Turkey you have lots of young girls wearing scarves so it´s not a matter of distant past. Also, all these who wear scarves are Muslim, so it must have something to do with religion after all.





38.       nifrtity
1806 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 06:39 pm

I think if an gril  do a bad things and wear hijab she is surely bad but the wrong in what the person doing not what the person wearing

Edited (8/8/2010) by nifrtity
Edited (8/8/2010) by nifrtity [spelling and grammar]

39.       oeince
582 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 07:38 pm


We see young women wearing hijabs kissing their boy friends in parks. They say God ordered women to cover their bodies. I don´t know about the kissing in public places part.

I do have a problem with that approach. Why do those girls have to be angels? Why do they have to live consistent? Do we always live like we believe? Are we wonderful? Why do they have to be wonderful? In order they wear sth. visible on their heads? I believe that they have the right to be incoherent at least as much as us. Emphaty please. These are just teenagers or young ladies who watch the vampire movies and fall in love with the vampire guy. They have the same passions and wonders as their peers have. Although these "kissing girls" or "*ss showing" girls are a very minor group of covered girls, i think it is not favourable to talk about anyone´s personal choices and acts.

Those girls are socially tortured. They are victims of mobbing. Not just matured people in that site high officers and politicians even talk about how they shall get dressed and how they shall act. That aristocratic paparazzi show has to end as soon as possible. Because while we otherize a significant group of young people, we also destroy the trust relation between the community and state. 

We should focus on what these girls are capable to produce rather than how they are capable to turn the man on. Education and working bans for covered girls not just socially suppress these girls but also lacks us from their production capacity.

40.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Aug 2010 Sun 08:30 pm

If you read my post again, you´ll see that I don´t have a big problem with those girls, but I do GET a problem with them when they start reading me a lesson about what I should or should not do. If they want to wear a scarf, fine. If they want to show their ass at the same time...fine. But I do not appreciate them at the same time saying I´m not dressed proper because I chose to hide my *ss, but not my hair. I think that is hypocritical. And hypocracy becomes more visible with such a clear religious statement as a headscarf. I think this is also a matter of age. The headscarf as a religious object is something that should be a conscious choice. If you are 14, 15 years old, put that scarf on, but at the same time put on your skinny jeans, perhaps you are not ready to make choices like that. I believe that in that case it´s not really the girls that make the choice. That is why I think scarfs should be banned, minimum at lower school, and perhaps also in middle school up to the age of 16. Otherwise the girls can be judged in school for their religion, instead of their personality. Why else do you have school uniforms in school? At university, that´s a different story.

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