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An apology in Turkey::
(78 Messages in 8 pages - View all)
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10.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:40 pm

Mr.Thunder,

Just wanted to make sure if the download material on the website you link in your post is safe? free from bugs?

Quoting Mr.Thunder

In 1915 , Turkey was fighting against Russia which invaded the Eastern Anatolian region of Turkey.  In Van the Armenian militias made a genocide of Turks and Kurds and established an Armenian government there.

 

The Russian General Leonid Bolhovitinovâ sent reports to his headquarters in Russia. These documents were found in the RUssian military archives. As an eye witness to the events He tells the 1915 events ! 

 

Watch the video presentation his report.

 

http://www.archive.org/details/RussianBrigadierGeneralLeonidBolhovitinovsReportAboutBarbaritiesBy

 

Apart from this Russian General , The British intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel also sent reports from Eastern Anatolia to his government. He tells that the Armenians definitly LIED and tried to fool the whole world although they themselves massacred Turks and Kurds !! His reports were found and quoted by Professor Mim Kemal Öke in his book with British Archives documentation codes and registry numbers. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:58 pm

OK

have done a bit of search. All sources are from Turkish sites, none of the materials are backed by russian websites or official statements, the same goes for british side. There was a claim that a turkish historian found the document in the archives of the russian military near podolsk. I am asking since when russians give an access to their military archives?

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12.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 02:05 pm

 

Quoting lemon

OK

have done a bit of search. All sources are from Turkish sites, none of the materials are backed by russian websites or official statements, the same goes for british side. There was a claim that a turkish historian found the document in the archives of the russian military near podolsk. I am asking since when russians give an access to their military archives?

 

So you mean Turks are lying or something? Why should he create or refer to  non-existant source for this sensitive issue?

 

Maybe Russian sites do not want be pro-Turkish. I never imagine a Russian would take side with Turks against Armenians whatever the truth is. Do you?

 

13.       scalpel
1472 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 03:55 pm

 

Quoting Mr.Thunder

The Ottomans were really tolerant and respectful to all identities.

 

The messages above only reflect the deep ignorance and prejudices of the West.

 

I am ignorant because my opinion is not similar to yours? Is this the way how you respect to others´ opinion?.. Why don´t you follow your ancestors´ way of tolerance and respect?.. Shame on you!..I was just about to believe that Turks all are angels without wings.. but your rude comment made me change my mind..     

 

 

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14.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 05:17 pm

The following is in Turkish but is about the Dersim uprising and who to apologise for what.

 

Prof. Dr. Eyüp S. Karakaş,  “Ben de özür istiyorum” başlıklı kendi yazısını gönderdi. Sütuna sığmayacağı için biraz kısalttım: “Sayın Başbakanımız devletin Dersim’de yaptıklarından dolayı özür diledi.  [Our PM apologized on behalf of the State for what the state did then]Annem Tunceli’nin Çemişgezek, babam Hozat ilçesinde doğmuş, büyümüş. Ben de Çemişgezek doğumluyum. [I was born in Çemişgezek] Yani ben Dersimliyim [That means, I am from Dersim]. Sayın Başbakanımızın devlet adına özür dilemesi elbette beni de ilgilendirir ama benden başkalarının da özür dilemesi gerekir. [Our PM´s apology concerns me but there are some others I am expecting some apology from]Kimler mi özür dilemelidir? [Who should also apologize?] Elbette Seyit Rıza ve onun gibi şakilere sahip çıkanlar ve onlar adına konuşanlar![Of course those who talk about Seyit Rıza and preach what he did]
Ben Dersim olaylarını babaannem, babam ve annemden dinleyerek büyüdüm.
Devlete isyan eden asiler sadece askerleri katletmekle kalmamış, oranın sivil halkını da öldürmüşler ve zulmetmişlerdir[Those who involved in uprising not only killed the soldiers but also the civilians]. Babaannemin nahiye müdürü olan, Salih isimli kardeşinin oğlu Efendi’yi asiler kaçırmış ve daha sonra ‘gel çocuğunu geri vereceğiz’ diye köylerine çağırmış ve yolda pusu kurarak öldürmüşlerdir.

Eşkıya işi o kadar azıtmıştır ki birkaç kere Çemişgezek’i basmış, karşı koymaya çalışanları öldürmüş ve kasabayı yağmalamıştır. Annem o günleri hatırlıyor. Kadınlar bir camiye toplanır eşkıya onlara bir kötülük yapmasın diye dua eder tespih çekerlermiş. Daha üç gün önce, o günlerde küçük bir kızın yanında öldürülen yüzbaşıyı, balta ile parçalanarak öldürülen askerleri, Fırat nehrini salla geçerken salın ipi kesilerek Fırat’ın azgın sularına terk edilen ve boğulan askerlerin hikâyesini anlatırken gözleri doldu.

Bu asiler köprüleri yıkmışlar, telefon tellerini kesmişler, nahiye müdürü, vergi tahsildarı gibi memurları öldürmüşler, karakolları basmışlar, subayları, astsubayları, erleri öldürmüşler. Halkın mal, can ve ırz emniyeti kalmamış. İşte bu ortamda askeri müdahale yapılmış ve suçlular ağır biçimde cezalandırılmış.

İkinci Dersim harekâtında maalesef bu asilerin yanında çok sayıda yerli halk da zarar görmüştür. Tabir yerinde ise kurunun yanında yaş da yanmıştır. İsyana iştirak eden aşiretler mecburi iskâna tâbi tutulmuş ve Anadolu’nun farklı bölgelerine gönderilmiştir.
Dersim isyanının Alevilikle, Kürtlükle ilgisi yoktur… Bu isyan tüm Dersim halkına da mal edilemez. Çok sayıda aşiretten sadece altısı bu isyana katılmıştır. İsyanın liderlerinden Seyit Rıza ise aslen bir Türk’tür. Kendisinin bazen Arap, bazen Kürt olduğunu söylemiştir ama mensup olduğu aşiret aslında bir Türk aşiretidir.
Bu hareket sonunda Tunceli’den tamamı son model 14 binden fazla silah toplanmıştır.

***

Dersim dosyasının açılmasını Cumhuriyet’in tasfiyesi projesi içinde değerlendirmek gerekir. Cumhuriyet’i koruyan tüm kişiler, kurumlar, topluluklar sindirilmeye, etkisizleştirilmeye veya Cumhuriyet’ten soğutulmaya çalışılıyor. ‘Sonsuza kadar koruma ve kollama’ kararlılığı ve direnci kırılmak isteniyor. İnsanlar hapse atılıyor, hatta öldürülüyor, bilgi kirliliği yaratılıyor; âdeta Cumhuriyet’ten intikam alınıyor.

Bu çerçevede sıra Alevilere gelmişti. Alevi yurttaşlarımızda Atatürk sevgisi ve Cumhuriyet sevdası her zaman var olmuştur. Cumhuriyeti koruma kararlılığını hiç yitirmemişlerdir. Dersim dosyası açılarak, Atatürk’ten ve Cumhuriyet’ten soğutulmaya çalışılıyor. Özetle Cumhuriyet savunmasız bırakılmak isteniyor. Geçmişte bazı oyunlara gelmeyen Alevilerin bu oyunu da bozacağına inanıyorum.

 

Source: here

15.       lemon
1374 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 12:44 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

So you mean Turks are lying or something? Why should he create or refer to  non-existant source for this sensitive issue?

 

Maybe Russian sites do not want be pro-Turkish. I never imagine a Russian would take side with Turks against Armenians whatever the truth is. Do you?

 

 

Why not? Who said that all Turks true speaking people? Every nation lies. Russians lie because they need to present the best picture of Russia avoiding dark parts of history. Armenians lie, Azeris lie, Turks lie. Oh, yes, we lie! It is natural. This goes to every single nation on the earth.

This sort of "documents" have appeared quite a few times now, mostly somewhere in russian libraries in moscow or somewhere again in russia. No one has seen the original, it is not scanned and uploaded on the website. All we hear is allegedly there is a document written by some officer Bolhovitinov whose exstence in the history was not of great importance, although most of his achievements were awarded for the service in the far east (china and japan). His name surfaces suddenly. I read about this Bolhovitinov actually. He comitted suicide apparently for being caught and tried for espionage and cooperation with the Red army.

And you are right russians and turks were always enemies  for nearly 5 centuries and constantly.

65 pages document!!! Amazing! http://news.day.az/politics/271252.html  here on azeri website this Turkish historian Mehmet Perenchek talks about the armenian lies. And again just a plain and dry  talk about "documents" he has found in russian archives during his 10 years of research (wow impressive, ten years). No archival document number, no reference. etc.

And I have a little note to Mr. Thunder since hes silent. This generals name was Bolhovitinov not Bolhovitinova. 

 

Btw, who knows, the document might be true. and reported atrocities could be true. who knows?

If armenians seeing the russian advance started feeling to gain a chance to free themselves from the ottoman burden being supported by british and french, yes, they could have done such thing. armenians arent saint just as turks arent.

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16.       tunci
7149 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 01:55 pm

 

History judges itself... For us , as people  living in" modern age" it is easy to judge the historic events without considering the conditions of events that happened in the past.

Instead of gaining lessons from the history , some people create "animosity" and raise their kids by washing their brains.

If we want to make a formula of [tragic or untragic] historic events took place is quite simple;

CAUSE -------------------------------------------> RESULT

Cause = Armenians were provoked by Russians 

Result = Armenian gangs armed by Russian were formed.

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = Armenian gangs with cooperating Russian started etnic cleansing in the east of Turkey

Result = Many innocent Turks were killed, burned alive in the barns,,[including pregnant women, kids,elderly]

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = This killings made Ottoman goverment started taking actions [sending there troops, deportation of Armenians.

Result = During this deportation to Syria or other places, because of a long journey some Armenians were killed of sickness...etc..  

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. What lessons can be gained from this event;

 a. We should always be aware of any provacation that is gonna threaten our unity.

 b. Ethnic nationalisizm is a poison that destroys the nations.

 c. We should look at both sides NOT one side..[both sides had suffered from this event]

 -------------------------------------------------------------

I personally patriotic person. I love my country. My people..I am proud of being Turk...But I am oppose to ethnic nationalism..You have to defence yourself and you have to punish torturers..but you have no right to kill or torture the innocent people..

I always proudly say that Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! In this statement of Ataturk, being a Turk means anyone who feels like he/she belongs to Turkish Nation..[it could be german, kurd,arab, french..whoever see himself/herself as a Turk , he/she is Turk]



Edited (12/15/2011) by tunci

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17.       harp00n
3993 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 02:49 pm

I think, if you learn something about Armenians and what have they done, you must read "Private Letters of Enver Pasha" and his dairy.

18.       lemon
1374 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 05:59 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

I personally patriotic person. I love my country. My people..I am proud of being Turk...But I am oppose to ethnic nationalism..You have to defence yourself and you have to punish torturers..but you have no right to kill or torture the innocent people..

I always proudly say that Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! In this statement of Ataturk, being a Turk means anyone who feels like he/she belongs to Turkish Nation..[it could be german, kurd,arab, french..whoever see himself/herself as a Turk , he/she is Turk]

 

Sure, you can be patriotic and loyal to your country and a national hero Ataturk. Thousands of Turks are born and die everyday. Is that a sense of your whole life? Is it the whole meaning? You will die like your ancestors died, they too lived and had causes to live for. Did your ancestors before Ataturk say Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! ? Before they became Turks?

Were you born to be a Turk and serve the ideology of Turkishness? Or were you born to be a human being wanting to serve God and only Him? Because He created you for Himself.

Does whatever you do satisfy to its full meaning? Well, lets say you die under a flag of Turkey defending your country, what happens next? You join heavenly Turkey? Is there a continuation of what we have today?

You often repeat things and ideas you were raised with since you remember yourself. You were bombarded with patriotic spirit in your family, school, work, books, papers, films, songs, poems, art. Wherever you went it was the same thing that filled your life. What is your uniqueness? Who are you? Where are you heading? What will happen to you?

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

19.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 06:45 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

 

I don´t care about genetics. I am still happy to call myself a Türk.

What are you after, lemon?

20.       tunci
7149 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 07:18 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Sure, you can be patriotic and loyal to your country and a national hero Ataturk. Thousands of Turks are born and die everyday. Is that a sense of your whole life? Is it the whole meaning? You will die like your ancestors died, they too lived and had causes to live for. Did your ancestors before Ataturk say Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! ? Before they became Turks?

Were you born to be a Turk and serve the ideology of Turkishness? Or were you born to be a human being wanting to serve God and only Him? Because He created you for Himself.

Does whatever you do satisfy to its full meaning? Well, lets say you die under a flag of Turkey defending your country, what happens next? You join heavenly Turkey? Is there a continuation of what we have today?

You often repeat things and ideas you were raised with since you remember yourself. You were bombarded with patriotic spirit in your family, school, work, books, papers, films, songs, poems, art. Wherever you went it was the same thing that filled your life. What is your uniqueness? Who are you? Where are you heading? What will happen to you?

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

 

 After your Judgements , I am more proud of being a Turk. Open your eyes and reread my post.You are asking who am I , Dont worry I know who am I. But seems like you are the one who doesnt know who he/she is. 

If you had read my post you would see the answer of that question.

Only one question for you ;

Why is that you suddenly appear when there is a subject that critisizing , blaming Turkish or Turkiye ? Is that your mission or what ? If it is , my friend, then you are in the wrong path..

I repeat again, No matter what nationality [jew,arab,armenian,german,papua new gineu..] people come from, If they feel like-they belong to Turkish nation , then He/She is Turkish.  I know  you cant understand this unless you change your judgemantel mind.

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