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An apology in Turkey::
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60.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 05:39 pm


Quoting gokuyum


You turned this discussion into your own show lemon.

My show? I just joined in to say that theres nothing here to backup the claims.  The rest was off topic that naturally comes out often. From one thought to another. Logically linked.

Don´t expect me to believe that you are sincere.

I never had an expectation. I feel no such need.

Nobody can bring back deads by arguing and fighting but they can create more victims. No nation is innocent. And there is no real justice in this world. Every nation can blame other easily with genocide. And this will take us nowhere. I trust only God´s judgement not humans´.

Completely agree.




61.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 05:59 pm

During the time period in which so many Armenians, Turks, Kurds, Greeks, other Europeans, (ect...) died.  I find it a bit strange to argue who massacred whom the most. Maybe its just me, but when reading any account of what happened, it just seems like a sad ,sad time where many innocents died to satisfy the few in power.  One side trying to hold on to power, another trying to gain power and the others fighting over scraps from the table.  Will we ever learn to resist the call to war?  Nothing good ever comes of it and the price is far to high.  

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62.       stumpy
638 posts
 19 Dec 2011 Mon 07:07 pm

the most difficult will be to stop looking at the past but to look towards the future, to be able to move forward one has to look forward, when you keep looking back at the past the wounds cannot heal and nothing good can come out of it.

63.       si++
3785 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:48 pm


Quoting stumpy

the most difficult will be to stop looking at the past but to look towards the future, to be able to move forward one has to look forward, when you keep looking back at the past the wounds cannot heal and nothing good can come out of it.


The Armenian will not do it. They don´t want to forget it and will do anything they need to do to always remember it.


Usually one needs to forget the bad things happened in the past. It happened to Turks as well. We have opted to forget about those bad things (what we went through in Balkans & Anatolia after 1877 until we founded our new state).

64.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 07:18 pm


Turkey´s Armenians uneasy about France´s genocide bill

Orhan Dink (Photo: Cihan)
As the French parliament is set to vote soon on a piece of legislation which would make denial that events occurring in Turkey in 1915 constituted genocide punishable by up to one year in prison and a fine of 45,000 euros, Turkey´s Armenian community is uneasy about the development.

One prominent figure who voiced opposition to the bill is Orhan Dink, brother of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who was assassinated outside his office by an ultranationalist teenager. “Similar legislation was debated in the French parliament in 2001 and 2006. My brother Hrant Dink strongly opposed it. This legislation completely violates human rights,” he said in a live television program on Monday evening.

Dink pointed out that Hrant Dink was convicted of violating Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code (TCK), an article that has been criticized for stifling freedom of speech as it forbids insulting "Turkishness." “That´s why he was murdered. It is natural for us to oppose that legislation in France. My brother was against it when he was alive. Even though he was murdered because of such a racist law, we have never felt hatred, and we are still against the [French] legislation because it violates human rights,” he said.

Dink also called on diaspora Armenians, saying they should object to the French legislation because it is an “insult” to them. “This pain should not be left in the hands of people who are in politics.

I call on my brothers, relatives, friends and people who share my pain; they should be against this legislation, be against this human rights violation. Don’t make our pain a tool to be used in politics,” he said referring to the events of 1915.

Armenians say 1.5 million Anatolian Armenians were killed in a systematic genocide campaign during the World War I. Turkey says the figures are inflated and insists that the killings occurred as the Ottoman Empire was trying to quell an uprising of Armenians, who revolted against Ottoman rule for independence, in collaboration with the Russian army, which was then invading eastern Anatolia.

In an apparent reference to Turkish accusations against France for ignoring its bloody past, Dink also said: “I want to send this message to politicians of both countries: Everybody should look at themselves in the mirror. A debate over who is worse than who will bring no result.”

According to academic Ohannes Kılıçdağı, it is obvious that the French legislation restricts freedom of speech because it requires punishment for people who deny that the events that occurred in 1915 in Turkey were genocide.

“Neither those who say that it was genocide nor those who say that it was not should be punished,” he said answering Today’s Zaman’s questions. “Penal codes should be differentiated from a mere expression of facts in order to share the pain of people who suffered as a result of what happened in 1915.”

Kılıçdağı also believes initiatives such as the one in France could negatively influence efforts to find solutions to problems between Turks and Armenians. “The ‘Armenian’ has a negative connotation in Turkey. Such initiatives would make it even more negative and increase tension. However, it is up to the decision makers to control those negative effects,” said Kılıçdağı who is the co-author of the report “Hearing Out Turkey’s Armenians: Problems, Demands, and Suggestions for a Solution.”

The study had stated: “The Armenian community, which has avoided visibility in Turkish society and which has isolated itself throughout republican history due to discriminatory policies and attitudes, started to raise its voice since the mid 1990s, and its demands for equal citizenship and respect for the Armenian identity reverberated in the democratization process starting in the 2000s.”As the emerging Armenian civil society started to make its voice heard in Turkey, they have also established connections with Turkish and Kurdish civil society.

Garo Paylan, a long-time leader in Armenian institutions in Turkey, said because of that interaction it was possible to organize an event in Turkey two years ago on April 24 to commemorate the 1915 tragedy. “It was the biggest news because Armenians, Turks and Kurds were there. If we are able to remember what happened, then there is no need for Sarkozy to use the issue in his dirty political games. As long as Parliament in Turkey is silent over the issue, others will use the issue for their own benefit, not to share our pain,” he said.

In the same line of thought, journalist and writer Markar Esayan indicated in his Monday column in the Taraf daily, that French President Nicolas Sarkozy is obviously after political gains considering that France is heading into a presidential election next year. “If a person who was massacred in a place in Anatolia in 1915 was able to be reincarnated and reach Sarkozy, s/he would spit in Sarkozy’s face and say, ‘You are making political gains out of my pain.’ But his or her grandchildren could not have such a clear stance because this is now a blood feud, and anything goes when it comes to striking out against the ‘other side’.”

Meanwhile, Turkey has threatened to withdraw its ambassador to France if the bill is passed, while Ankara has lashed out at Paris, saying the country should investigate alleged French abuses in Algeria and Rwanda instead. France had troops in Rwanda, and Rwandan President Paul Kagame has accused the country of doing little to stop the country’s genocide.


65.       stumpy
638 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 07:51 pm

oh my, like France is a pure as the driven snow, they should resolve their own issues and problems before telling Turkey what to do and France should be carefull because that kind of a bill can come back and bite them in the a** because they have been party to many genocides in their illustrious past.  I wonder if they have a similar bill and send to prison people who say the holocaust did not occur?

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66.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 08:35 pm


Quoting stumpy

oh my, like France is a pure as the driven snow, they should resolve their own issues and problems before telling Turkey what to do and France should be carefull because that kind of a bill can come back and bite them in the a** because they have been party to many genocides in their illustrious past.  I wonder if they have a similar bill and send to prison people who say the holocaust did not occur?


 Absolutely ..  "pure as the driven snow "   We should remind them what did they do in Algeria and in their other colonies.  such a hypocritical attitude of so called "civilised" Europe..

Evet, one day , may be soon, that bill will bite them in the most suitable place of them. [ I couldnt pronounce that word here ....]


67.       stumpy
638 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 10:54 pm

Quote: tunci

Evet, one day , may be soon, that bill will bite them in the most suitable place of them.
that is what happens when one has their heads in the sand...  There is a particular part of the body that sticks out more prodominetly  {#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

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68.       Mr.Thunder
31 posts
 21 Dec 2011 Wed 08:36 pm

Sorry for being late to write here again. I did not know that this thread would receive so many messages. A few days after my message I only saw the message of Si++. I did not sign in for a long time to check the discussions here.




I first should answer the questions about the authenticity of the historical documents I mentioned in my first message.


I had seen the original Russian, English and Turkish translations of the reports of the Russian General many years ago.They were published by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Although his reports were published as a book it was rediscovered by the Turkish media several years ago. There is no question about the authenticity of these documents.


About the reports of the British Intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel , You can refer to the book of Prof. Mim Kemal Öke ,"Musul-Kürdistan Sorunu". There He gives quotations from the documents with the documents codes, archive registry numbers etc.  Just like O.T.E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)  Major Noel is a well known name for those who are interested in the history of the Middle East.


 I mentioned those two sources of information but there are plenty of documents and other kinds of evindence proving the fact that the so called "genocide" was only an anti Turkish propaganda ( a slander) in WW I.  The Armenian ultra-nationalist organisations tried to cover up their own crimes while they were trying to persuade the Western countries to support their "Greater Armenia" project.


The Armenians could not succeed because they were not a majority in any region in Anatolia.  They restorted to the method of ethnic cleansing and terrorising the muslim people in the region. In 1915 the city of Van was invaded. The Armenians made a terrible massacre and established their government there. This is a historical fact.


In World War I , Turkey fought against England, France and Russia. In 1918 the WW I ended and Istanbul was invaded by a coalition of the enemy forces.  The British prosecuted the charges of so called massacres of Armenians  and many Turkish officials, parliamentarians and army commanders were arrested and exiled to Malta. The British Military Court tried these people.  For nearly 3 years they searched for evidence. In search of evidence they talked to the Armenian people and visited the remote places of Anatolia where Armenians were allegedly mistreated and talked to the people there, asked them questions about the events of WW I.  In the end they found out that such charges were FALSE and acquitted all the Turkish officials in 1921.


This issue was closed in the early 1920s. It remained so untill the mid 1960s. In 1953 when Celal Bayar the Turkish President visited the USA as the first Turkish president visiting the USA  He was embraced by the Armenians living there. They met him at the airport with the banners in their hands saying "Our President, Welcome to America".  But things started to change in the mid 1960s when Turkey had a serious political crisis with the United States. ( Turkey had threatened the USA by implying that she could leave the NATO when President Lyndon Johnson said that the NATO would not help Turkey against the  Soviet Union in case a war broke out because of the Cyprus problem. )


  The origins of today´s Armenian issue can be found in the cold war years. In the late 1950s with the support of the KGB the notorious Armenian terrorist organisation ASALA was founded in Beirut.  Gaidz Minnassian, an Armenian academic at Sorbone University wrote the unknown story of this Armenian question in his important book  "Guerre et Terrorisme Armeniens"


Présentation de l´éditeur

Le terrorisme contre la Turquie (1975-1985) et la guerre du Haut-Karabakh (1988-1994), les deux thématiques de l´actualité de la question arménienne de 1970 à nos jours, ont pour principal fil conducteur une organisation révolutionnaire centenaire, la Fédération révolutionnaire arménienne ou parti Dachnak créé en 1890 et favorable à la création d´une grande Arménie entre la Turquie et la Russie. Cette Fédération est implantée dans plus de 30 Etats sous forme d´un réseau semi-légal, ayant participé au terrorisme contre la Turquie (1975-1985), puis à la guerre arméno-azérie du Haut-Karabakh (1988-1994) entretenant et réactivant aujourd´hui le rêve d´une grande Arménie.

L´auteur vu par l´éditeur

Gaïdz Minassian est docteur en science politique, journaliste au Monde, chargé d´étude au centre de recherche sur l´Asie, Université de Paris X - Nanterre (Laboratoire d´analyse des systèmes politiques).Préface de Gérard Chaliand
     This notorious terrorist organisation ASALA murdered many innocent people including the Turkish diplomats and the civilians. They bombed the Orly Airpot in France and killed many Euoropen civillians too.
     In 1982, Artin Penik,  an Armenian peace activist protested the Armenian terrorism and their propagandas against Turkey  and set fire to himself in the Taksim square of Istanbul. Unfortunately he died. In his interview before his death He told that He had been among the Armenians in Europe and America and witnessed to the horrible plans against Turkey. He revealed that in the future they would be a problem for all the governments in the world. They were used by the imperialist powers against Turkey.
    Watch here his last message He gave two days before his death in the hostpital in 1982.














Edited (12/21/2011) by Mr.Thunder
Edited (12/21/2011) by Mr.Thunder
Edited (12/22/2011) by Mr.Thunder

69.       lemon
1374 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 07:46 am


Quoting Mr.Thunder

I had seen the original Russian, English and Turkish translations of the reports of the Russian General many years ago.They were published by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Although his reports were published as a book it was rediscovered by the Turkish media several years ago. There is no question about the authenticity of these documents.


About the reports of the British Intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel , You can refer to the book of Prof. Mim Kemal Öke ,"Musul-Kürdistan Sorunu". There He gives quotations from the documents with the documents codes, archive registry numbers etc.  Just like O.T.E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)  Major Noel is a well known name for those who are interested in the history of the Middle East.


Well, it looks like we have to trust you. Thank you for bringing so many proofs and helping us to see the original documents. It was helpful to read your answer richly decorated with truthful records from trustful sources.

To be honest, I have to confess you something. I ve never told anyone before but I am a grandaughter of Haile Selassie I, the Lion of Judah. There is a well known historian Borat Hrint who did some search on Haile´s bloodline. To their great surprise the search brought them directly to me. This is mentioned in Hrint´s book "Sheba and the Lion". The book is a well documented collection of authentic papers, reports and photos and published under the guidance and approval of Rastafarian Government.

There is also a well-known persona Hyppolit of Russia. If you type his name in the search engine you will immediately find tons of interesting encyclopedian sources because he is as popular as Major B.C. Christmas.


Edited (12/22/2011) by lemon [just added two more important letters, the initials of the major. :)]

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70.       tunci
7149 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 12:18 pm



During the new phase of Armenian terrorism from 1973 to 1985, the terrorist organization most frequently mentioned was ASALA (The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia). No information has yet been published on its establishment, structure and activities. With regard to ASALA, various Armenian sources and publications provide information about certain individuals, and the results of terrorist activity, mostly obtained from publications issued by the organization or terrorist group. This is information, which the terrorist group wishes to publish or does not object to having published. With regard to the founding of ASALA, some publications link it with the events in Lebanon; they take the view that it was established under the inspiration of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, within which it had been active. Others claim that it was founded by a small group of Armenians, who, within a short time, carried out the most sensational and effective acts of terrorism of the period. All this is very far from providing a complete explanation of how ASALA was founded. Until the conditions under which ASALA first appeared as an organization are better known and the gap it filled is more satisfactorily elucidated, present doubts will continue for a long time to come.

It is generally known that the first Armenian terrorist activities of the new period were in accordance with the policies and targets of the Dashnak terrorist organization. Throughout the course of history as well as in the period under discussion, the Dashnaks were completely pro-Western. They adopted a policy of limited terrorist activity, which was directed basically against Turkish targets, and, as revealed by various sources of evidence, they obtained help and support from the Western states; in fact, they collaborated with them. Basically, their principles and historical development did not allow them to adopt a different approach. In this situation, one sphere of activity still remained. Namely that relating to the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, which appealed to the younger Marxist Revolutionary generations and, particularly, to the "New Armenian Resistance Organizations", in France. In fact, this area had long since been filled by the Hunchaks. Since 1960, they, with their various points of view, had also been preparing for a new period of terror. However, the Hunchaks were not in evidence, and a terrorist organization, wishing to be regarded as completely new, appeared on the scene in the guise of ASALA. When the factors leading to the new period of Armenian terrorism are taken into consideration and their aims and policies, especially as a Hunchak terrorist organization, are examined, the conclusion can be reached that ASALA is a terrorist offshoot of the Hunchaks. It was above all the conditions and new developments in Lebanon that lay behind the emergence of this group as a new terrorist organization, which because known for the various acts of terrorism for which it claimed responsibility. In fact, no significant change has taken place. The two Armenian terrorist organizations once again occupy the centre of the stage against the backdrop of history. The first is more in evidence, operating through its terrorist offshoots, whilst the second operates under cover, in the guise of a terrorist group to which it has given manpower and expertise, as well as moral support. This group in turn carries out terrorist activities through subsidiary groups and teams.

1.      Foundation and Organizational Structure

ASALA was founded in 1975. The leader of this terror organization is known to have been Agop Agopian, one of the two most active members of the six or seven founding members. The second was Agop Tarakdjian, who was personally involved in terrorism and other criminal activity and who ensured the continued existence of the organization in the absence of Agop Agopian. The second of these two men died in 1981, whilst the first continued as leader throughout the whole of this period, apart from the time spent under treatment for wound received. He was well known as a mucahid and a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization.

The organization was structured in accordance with the general practice of the Armenian terrorist groups. The Lebanon Central Committee was the supreme executive body. In 1980 this committee took on a very important form in the Lebanon and assumed the nature of a "bureau". Subordinate to the Central Committee were bodies such as the Political Committee, the Finance Committee, the Propaganda and Information Committee, the Intelligence Committee and the Military Committee. Subordinate to the Military Committee were a number of operational teams.

2.      Aims and Objectives

ASALA revealed to the world its aims and objectives in a "political programme" published in the end of 1981. According to this, the aim of ASALA was “the foundation of a united Armenia under the leadership of a democratic, socialist, revolutionary government”. The identity of the government in question is quite clear from the definition. All aid was welcome from the USSR and other socialist countries, while at the same time Soviet Armenia was accepted as a base in "the long struggle of the Armenian people".

In this political programme their enemies were divided into two groups. The first of these was the Dashnak Armenian terrorist group, and all the "regional reactionaries" who opposed, or at least failed to support ASALA. The second was "Turkish imperialism, aided and abetted by international imperialism".

ASALA believed that “the only way of liberating Armenian territory was through the use of violence”, and issued public announcements to this effect. According to their programme, ASALA was to support all those who rejected the domination of the ruling classes and who were willing to work towards the foundation and strengthening of coalitions within the international revolutionary movement. Violence and terror formed an essential element in this programme.

In order to realise ASALA´s aims and objectives it was not essential that terrorist activities should be directed solely against Turks and the friends of Turkey, or against people in positions of power or authority. "Terror is a phenomenon" and the important point is its scope and dimension. The actual targets may be of secondary importance. Greatest stress it to be laid on murders and massacres that will arouse violent public reaction. Whether the targets are men, women or children, Turks or non-Turks, is of little significance. Nevertheless, first importance was to be given to attacks on Turkey and the Turks. The importance of the attacks and massacres carried out in the airports of Paris and Istanbul, in the Istanbul Covered Market and the airport of Orly, lay entirely in the nature and violence of the reaction these were aimed at arousing.

3. Strategy, Attitudes and Behaviour

The essential aim of ASALA was to make the Lebanon the centre for all progressive Armenian movements throughout the world and the point from which all operations would be directed. In short, all progressive Armenian groups were to unite in the Lebanon and for the basis for an "ASALA Popular Movement". In this way, all progressive Armenians could enter into an official organization in which their individual strengths could be united.

An attempt was made in the summer of 1981 to put this section of ASALA strategy into effect by calling all progressive Armenians to a meeting in the Lebanon. By "progressive" was meant "Marxist-Leninist".

The second stage of this strategy began with the terrorist activities and open war undertaken by the organization thus founded with the help of certain socialist states. Armenian terror formed an integral part of the struggle for independence in the Middle East, uniting with other movements directed against the integrity of Turkish territory. This led inevitably to the union of ASALA and PKK.

ASALA was clearly a terrorist organization in attitude and behaviour. In all ranks of the administration terror and the implementation of terror was regarded as an essential feature of the organization. The leaders murdered one another, liquidated those of whom they disapproved or had them done away with. Apart from this, each terrorist team was presented to world opinion as if it were a separate Armenian organization and all types of propaganda were carried on by this means. Responsibility for the crimes committed were assumed by various organizations whose names had never before been heard of. A list is to be found in an appendix at the end of this Introduction showing how in 1981 and 1982 the murders, crimes, bombings and raids were carried out by a single organization but attributed to groups with a variety of different names. By examining this list the reader will find a number of operations claimed to have been carried out by a great many different Armenian groups but which actually all bear the mark of a single team and a single organization. All these so-called independent groups remained subordinate to and directed by ASALA itself.

4.      Political developments

The first stage in the political development of ASALA, which is generally agreed to have been founded in 1975, was highly effective, and the organization was strengthened by new forces recruited during the Armenian Congress in Paris in 1979. It gained further strength in 1981. In 1983 it split into two factions.

The first operation carried out by ASALA was the assassination by Agop Tarakdjian, one of the founders of the organization, of Oktay Cerit, First Secretary in the Turkish Embassy in Beirut, on 16 February 1976. The period up to 1979 was marked by ASALA´s involvement in the conflicts between the various Palestinian groups, in the course of which Agopian, one of the leaders, was wounded. Links with the Armenian terrorists in France were established during the Armenian Congress meeting in Paris in 1979, which saw the organization strengthened by the addition of new elements and fresh blood. The most famous of the new members were Alex Yenikomshian and Monte Melkian. In 1981 a number of terrorist attacks carried out by ASALA on innocent groups or individuals having severely shaken its standing in world public opinion. Following the Israeli occupation of the Lebanon the ASALA leaders were forced to leave the Lebanon along with the Palestinians. A split in the organization took place in 1983.

• The Agop Agopian Group - This was centred in Greece and the Middle East. Its terror was directed indiscriminately against Turks and non-Turks, as well as against innocent women and children. It was this group that was responsible for the attack at Orly.

• In Western Europe the movement operated under the name of the "Asala Revolutionary Movement". This followed a more moderate course of action and directed its terror solely against Turks. The leaders of this group were Monte Melkonian and Ara Toranian. Toranian was the leader of a group centred in Paris known as the "Armenian National Movement" which described the Orly attack as a purely Fascist operation.

Melkonian, who had been born in Iran, declared his intention of setting the Armenian struggle on a sound political footing. According to this the movement had two aims; to rouse the Armenians to action, and to make common cause with other groups in their struggle against Turkey. In this second stage, Melkonian was involved in establishing alliances with other groups while Agopian continued with his own type of activity.

5. Support and Alliances

ASALA received support from three main sources:

1.The Soviet Union, the Eastern block and other socialist countries.

2.Countries such as Greece and Syria whose geopolitical expectations depended on the destabilisation of Turkey from within and without.

3.Various communist parties, indirectly from the Hunchak Armenian terrorist organization and its sympathisers, and also from the Armenian church, in spite of its difference in outlook.

In ASALA´s links with other groups first priority was given to relations with non-Armenian terror groups which threatened Turkey directly or indirectly, and whose activities ran parallel to the strategy implemented by ASALA itself. In the period between 1976 and 1980 these consisted of groups such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, activist members of the various communist parties and the secret services belonging to certain states. In 1980 ASALA widened the scope of its activities following the agreement reached with PICK at a meeting in Sidon in the Lebanon, thus establishing unity of outlook and action between ASALA and PKK. As a matter of fact, these two organizations had already displayed a marked affinity in aims, structure and beliefs. From 1983 onwards ASALA relations began to develop along the lines of the strategy laid down by Monte Melkonian. First priority was given to terrorist activity within Turkey, and links were established with any group capable of furthering this strategy by either direct or indirect means. These groups were headed by PKK, the Turkish CommunistParty and other communist organizations.

6.      Publications and information media

ASALA´s most important, official organ is Haiastan

Other important publications include the periodicals Hai-Baikar, Armenia and Kaytzer, published in London.

ASALA´s first radio broadcasts began in 1981 in Beyrut with a daily one-hour programme "The Voice of the Armenians in the Lebanon". Apart from these, facilities are provided by the public radio corporations and mass communication media belonging to countries with which it has established contacts.


Monta Melkonian (Meykonyan) who left ASALA and passed to France in September 1983 has disclosed that he has founded the ASALA — The Military Apparatus Of People’ s Movement, ASALA — Revolutionary Movement (ASALA — MR). The recovering of the relations with the French Government, which deteriorated has been their most important goal. While it was being thought that these would do their actions in Turkey, they have taken the North American and Western European wings totally under their own control and attracted the militants in these regions to their line. Melkonian, was killed in 1993 in Nagorno Karabakh while he was fighting against Azerbaijanis.   



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