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An apology in Turkey::
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1.       Hindistan
246 posts
 26 Nov 2011 Sat 08:27 pm

With his unexpected apology for the Kurdish massacre of 1937, Turkey´s Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has opened the door to the darkest episodes in the country´s history. The Dersim massacre, named after the place where it occurred, refers to the killing of nearly 14,000 Kurdish people to contain a rebellion that began soon after a 1935 law decreed ‘Turkification´, the forcible assimilation of ethnic minorities. In this case, the flashpoint came when the name ‘Dersim´ was changed to ‘Tunceli´. Referring to the incident, Mr. Erdogan said: “If it is necessary to apologise on behalf of the state, if there is such a practice in the books, I will apologise, I am apologising.” His main objective was to embarrass the opposition Republican People´s Party (CHP), which was in power at the time under a system of single-party rule established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. He prefaced his statement of contrition with a challenge to the CHP leader to make the apology. He was also playing to the turmoil within the CHP, where some are calling on the party to face up to its past. For all the political point-scoring, Mr. Erdogan is the first Turkish leader to mention the incident and the word ‘apology´ in the same breath. In this sense, it is historic. It also coincides with a government military offensive against the Kurdish rebel group PKK, the first in three years. Although the Erdogan government has made some linguistic and cultural concessions to the Kurdish minority, including starting a broadcast on state television in the once-banned Kurdish language, and reiterated a commitment to resolve the issue politically through talks with the Kurdish representatives, it is insistent that the PKK must first lay down arms.

In describing the Dersim incident as the “most tragic” in Turkey´s recent history that should now be confronted “with courage,” Prime Minister Erdogan has unintentionally turned the spotlight on the 1915 massacre of Armenians, who say 1.5 million of them were killed in a genocide by the Ottoman regime that year. Turkey officially rejects the accusation, holding instead that up to half-a-million Armenians were killed, alongside a similar count of Turks, when they revolted against the Ottoman rulers during the First World War. Turkey´s tough position on this is one of the obstacles to its entry into the European Union. The apology for Dersim is likely to spur fresh demands that Turkey show contrition for 1915 as well, although this seems unlikely. Beyond Turkey, there is a lesson in this for other nations: state injustice and brutality against a group or groups of people is not easily forgotten, not even in a hundred years.

catwoman liked this message
2.       scalpel
1472 posts
 27 Nov 2011 Sun 01:27 am

If he is genuine in his apology for "the Kurdish massacres of 1937" , He must go ahead and apologize for the Armenian massacre in 1915.. He should apologize for all the Ottoman massacres (especially in the early 1500´s) of Alevi Turks (Kızılbaş ) as well.. and someone else -in 2050 or so- will probably apologize for what he is now doing to PKK in 2011.. What is the logical difference between what happened in Dersim 1937 and what is happening in Colemerg 2011?    



Edited (11/27/2011) by scalpel
Edited (11/27/2011) by scalpel

lemon liked this message
3.       Mr.Thunder
31 posts
 10 Dec 2011 Sat 06:41 pm

The Ottomans were really tolerant and respectful to all identities.

 

The messages above only reflect the deep ignorance and prejudices of the West.

 

The historical documents of Turkey, England and Russia say that the "Armenian genocide" is a big lie ! In fact it was the Armenian militias who massacred Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia to create an ethnic cleansed region for the establishment of their "Greater Armenia".

 

You must NOT confuse the real historical facts with the lies of the Armenian ultra nationalist organisations backed by the notorious imperialist states.

 

Here I present what honest , objective Armenians say about that anti-Turkish propapganda based on lies and fabricated documents.

 

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Tashji.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4.       Mr.Thunder
31 posts
 10 Dec 2011 Sat 06:45 pm

Read his statement here

 

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/tashji-1989statement.htm

 

 

5.       Mr.Thunder
31 posts
 10 Dec 2011 Sat 06:56 pm

In 1915 , Turkey was fighting against Russia which invaded the Eastern Anatolian region of Turkey.  In Van the Armenian militias made a genocide of Turks and Kurds and established an Armenian government there.

 

The Russian General Leonid Bolhovitinovâ sent reports to his headquarters in Russia. These documents were found in the RUssian military archives. As an eye witness to the events He tells the 1915 events ! 

 

Watch the video presentation his report.

 

http://www.archive.org/details/RussianBrigadierGeneralLeonidBolhovitinovsReportAboutBarbaritiesBy

 

Apart from this Russian General , The British intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel also sent reports from Eastern Anatolia to his government. He tells that the Armenians definitly LIED and tried to fool the whole world although they themselves massacred Turks and Kurds !! His reports were found and quoted by Professor Mim Kemal Öke in his book with British Archives documentation codes and registry numbers. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

6.       si++
3785 posts
 10 Dec 2011 Sat 08:45 pm

 

Quoting Mr.Thunder

In 1915 , Turkey was fighting against Russia which invaded the Eastern Anatolian region of Turkey.  In Van the Armenian militias made a genocide of Turks and Kurds and established an Armenian government there.

 

The Russian General Leonid Bolhovitinovâ sent reports to his headquarters in Russia. These documents were found in the RUssian military archives. As an eye witness to the events He tells the 1915 events ! 

 

Watch the video presentation his report.

 

http://www.archive.org/details/RussianBrigadierGeneralLeonidBolhovitinovsReportAboutBarbaritiesBy

 

Apart from this Russian General , The British intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel also sent reports from Eastern Anatolia to his government. He tells that the Armenians definitly LIED and tried to fool the whole world although they themselves massacred Turks and Kurds !! His reports were found and quoted by Professor Mim Kemal Öke in his book with British Archives documentation codes and registry numbers. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That video consists of some slides. I had collected them and posted: here (post #2

 

Copied below as well:

 

 

England intentionally incited Armenians to violence in eastern Anatolia to impede the formation of an alliance between Czarist Russia and the Ottomans that would create a new axis of power.

Russian Brgader General Bolhovitinov 1915

 

Armenian volunteer regiments motivated by ethnic hatred vicously massacred Ottoman Muslims

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

 

Before the British induced conflict, Kurds, Turks and Armenians lived together in peace.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

European diplomacy pushed the idea of the formation of an independent Armenia.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

Europe supported rebellion and violence by Armenian guerillas and used Armenian intellectuals to influence public opinion in Europe.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

The Muslim populace was attacked on every front using every means, both under cover of the staged ‘rebellion’ by Armenian guerilla bands and with propaganda.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

Activity by the Armenian guerilla bands took the form of terrorism. This terror was not only directed at Muslims, but also against Armenians who did not support their cause.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

Motivated by racism, Armenian guerilla bands massacred the Muslim population, without regard to age or gender, exterminating entire villages and pillaging all property.

from Bolhovitinov’s Report

 

 



Edited (12/10/2011) by si++

7.       si++
3785 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 08:52 pm

Sargsyan took part in Khojaly massacre: Parliament speaker

ANKARA - Milliyet

 

Parliament Speaker Cemil Çiçek. AA photo

Parliament Speaker Cemil Çiçek. AA photo

Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan took part in the killing of civilians during the Armenia-Azerbaijan war in 1992, Parliamentary Speaker Cemil Çiçek alleged yesterday.

It is ironic that Armenia has accused Turkey of genocide, “while one of the biggest massacres of the recent past was carried out in front of the entire world in 1992 in Khojaly village,” Çiçek said today during an event to commemorate the eighth anniversary of the passing of former Azerbaijani President Haydar Aliyev. “The current Armenian president, Serzh Sargsyan took part in that massacre.” 
Çiçek did not elaborate on Sarsyan’s alleged role in the killings.

One of Azerbaijan’s most pressing issues is the occupation of 20 percent of its territory by Armenia, Çiçek said, adding that Armenia had committed other crimes against humanity by destroying the natural resources in the lands it occupied.  

Azerbaijan´s territorial unity a priority 

Çiçek said the protection of Azerbaijan´s rights in Nagorno-Karabakh, the contested Azerbaijani region that Armenia sought to claim during the 1990s war, was a top priority in Turkish foreign policy.  
"The Nagorno-Karabakh issue is the most important problem that threatens peace in the Caucasus," Çiçek said.  

“The ending of Armenian occupation on Azerbaijan land is an absolute must for the normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia,” he said. 

Hundreds of ethnic Azeri civilians from the town of Khojaly were killed on Feb. 25, 1992, during the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan in what became known as the Khojaly Massacre. According to Azerbaijani sources, the massacre was committed by ethnic Armenian armed forces.
 
Some 613 civilians were killed in the massacre, according to the official death toll provided by Azerbaijani authorities.

Armenia has officially denied involvement in the killings.

 

Source: here

tunci liked this message
8.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:11 pm

 

Khojaly Genocide

 

Image

At night from February 25 to 26 in 1992 the Armenian armed forces occupied the town of Khojaly. The occupation was carried out with active support of several units of the Russian Army´s 366th regiment.

Occupation of Khojaly was followed with unprecedented brutalities against the civilian population. In a few hours the aggressors killed 613 innocent and unarmed people. Among them were 106 women, 83 children. 56 people were killed with special brutality. 8 families were totally exterminated. 25 children were totally, and 130 children were partly orphaned. 476 people became disabled persons (of them 76 were minors). 1275 people were taken into hostage and even though afterwards most of the hostages were released from captivity, the fates of 150 of them are still unknown.
For more info ; http://khojaly.org
 
 

9.       tunci
7149 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:31 pm

 

I wonder , when will the state of Armenia apologize for Khojalı Massacre that happened in 1992 ?

It didnt happen 100 years ago...! May be we should make more people know about this tragic event that happened only 19 years ago from now.

 



Edited (12/13/2011) by tunci

10.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:40 pm

Mr.Thunder,

Just wanted to make sure if the download material on the website you link in your post is safe? free from bugs?

Quoting Mr.Thunder

In 1915 , Turkey was fighting against Russia which invaded the Eastern Anatolian region of Turkey.  In Van the Armenian militias made a genocide of Turks and Kurds and established an Armenian government there.

 

The Russian General Leonid Bolhovitinovâ sent reports to his headquarters in Russia. These documents were found in the RUssian military archives. As an eye witness to the events He tells the 1915 events ! 

 

Watch the video presentation his report.

 

http://www.archive.org/details/RussianBrigadierGeneralLeonidBolhovitinovsReportAboutBarbaritiesBy

 

Apart from this Russian General , The British intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel also sent reports from Eastern Anatolia to his government. He tells that the Armenians definitly LIED and tried to fool the whole world although they themselves massacred Turks and Kurds !! His reports were found and quoted by Professor Mim Kemal Öke in his book with British Archives documentation codes and registry numbers. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11.       lemon
1374 posts
 13 Dec 2011 Tue 10:58 pm

OK

have done a bit of search. All sources are from Turkish sites, none of the materials are backed by russian websites or official statements, the same goes for british side. There was a claim that a turkish historian found the document in the archives of the russian military near podolsk. I am asking since when russians give an access to their military archives?

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12.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 02:05 pm

 

Quoting lemon

OK

have done a bit of search. All sources are from Turkish sites, none of the materials are backed by russian websites or official statements, the same goes for british side. There was a claim that a turkish historian found the document in the archives of the russian military near podolsk. I am asking since when russians give an access to their military archives?

 

So you mean Turks are lying or something? Why should he create or refer to  non-existant source for this sensitive issue?

 

Maybe Russian sites do not want be pro-Turkish. I never imagine a Russian would take side with Turks against Armenians whatever the truth is. Do you?

 

13.       scalpel
1472 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 03:55 pm

 

Quoting Mr.Thunder

The Ottomans were really tolerant and respectful to all identities.

 

The messages above only reflect the deep ignorance and prejudices of the West.

 

I am ignorant because my opinion is not similar to yours? Is this the way how you respect to others´ opinion?.. Why don´t you follow your ancestors´ way of tolerance and respect?.. Shame on you!..I was just about to believe that Turks all are angels without wings.. but your rude comment made me change my mind..     

 

 

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14.       si++
3785 posts
 14 Dec 2011 Wed 05:17 pm

The following is in Turkish but is about the Dersim uprising and who to apologise for what.

 

Prof. Dr. Eyüp S. Karakaş,  “Ben de özür istiyorum” başlıklı kendi yazısını gönderdi. Sütuna sığmayacağı için biraz kısalttım: “Sayın Başbakanımız devletin Dersim’de yaptıklarından dolayı özür diledi.  [Our PM apologized on behalf of the State for what the state did then]Annem Tunceli’nin Çemişgezek, babam Hozat ilçesinde doğmuş, büyümüş. Ben de Çemişgezek doğumluyum. [I was born in Çemişgezek] Yani ben Dersimliyim [That means, I am from Dersim]. Sayın Başbakanımızın devlet adına özür dilemesi elbette beni de ilgilendirir ama benden başkalarının da özür dilemesi gerekir. [Our PM´s apology concerns me but there are some others I am expecting some apology from]Kimler mi özür dilemelidir? [Who should also apologize?] Elbette Seyit Rıza ve onun gibi şakilere sahip çıkanlar ve onlar adına konuşanlar![Of course those who talk about Seyit Rıza and preach what he did]
Ben Dersim olaylarını babaannem, babam ve annemden dinleyerek büyüdüm.
Devlete isyan eden asiler sadece askerleri katletmekle kalmamış, oranın sivil halkını da öldürmüşler ve zulmetmişlerdir[Those who involved in uprising not only killed the soldiers but also the civilians]. Babaannemin nahiye müdürü olan, Salih isimli kardeşinin oğlu Efendi’yi asiler kaçırmış ve daha sonra ‘gel çocuğunu geri vereceğiz’ diye köylerine çağırmış ve yolda pusu kurarak öldürmüşlerdir.

Eşkıya işi o kadar azıtmıştır ki birkaç kere Çemişgezek’i basmış, karşı koymaya çalışanları öldürmüş ve kasabayı yağmalamıştır. Annem o günleri hatırlıyor. Kadınlar bir camiye toplanır eşkıya onlara bir kötülük yapmasın diye dua eder tespih çekerlermiş. Daha üç gün önce, o günlerde küçük bir kızın yanında öldürülen yüzbaşıyı, balta ile parçalanarak öldürülen askerleri, Fırat nehrini salla geçerken salın ipi kesilerek Fırat’ın azgın sularına terk edilen ve boğulan askerlerin hikâyesini anlatırken gözleri doldu.

Bu asiler köprüleri yıkmışlar, telefon tellerini kesmişler, nahiye müdürü, vergi tahsildarı gibi memurları öldürmüşler, karakolları basmışlar, subayları, astsubayları, erleri öldürmüşler. Halkın mal, can ve ırz emniyeti kalmamış. İşte bu ortamda askeri müdahale yapılmış ve suçlular ağır biçimde cezalandırılmış.

İkinci Dersim harekâtında maalesef bu asilerin yanında çok sayıda yerli halk da zarar görmüştür. Tabir yerinde ise kurunun yanında yaş da yanmıştır. İsyana iştirak eden aşiretler mecburi iskâna tâbi tutulmuş ve Anadolu’nun farklı bölgelerine gönderilmiştir.
Dersim isyanının Alevilikle, Kürtlükle ilgisi yoktur… Bu isyan tüm Dersim halkına da mal edilemez. Çok sayıda aşiretten sadece altısı bu isyana katılmıştır. İsyanın liderlerinden Seyit Rıza ise aslen bir Türk’tür. Kendisinin bazen Arap, bazen Kürt olduğunu söylemiştir ama mensup olduğu aşiret aslında bir Türk aşiretidir.
Bu hareket sonunda Tunceli’den tamamı son model 14 binden fazla silah toplanmıştır.

***

Dersim dosyasının açılmasını Cumhuriyet’in tasfiyesi projesi içinde değerlendirmek gerekir. Cumhuriyet’i koruyan tüm kişiler, kurumlar, topluluklar sindirilmeye, etkisizleştirilmeye veya Cumhuriyet’ten soğutulmaya çalışılıyor. ‘Sonsuza kadar koruma ve kollama’ kararlılığı ve direnci kırılmak isteniyor. İnsanlar hapse atılıyor, hatta öldürülüyor, bilgi kirliliği yaratılıyor; âdeta Cumhuriyet’ten intikam alınıyor.

Bu çerçevede sıra Alevilere gelmişti. Alevi yurttaşlarımızda Atatürk sevgisi ve Cumhuriyet sevdası her zaman var olmuştur. Cumhuriyeti koruma kararlılığını hiç yitirmemişlerdir. Dersim dosyası açılarak, Atatürk’ten ve Cumhuriyet’ten soğutulmaya çalışılıyor. Özetle Cumhuriyet savunmasız bırakılmak isteniyor. Geçmişte bazı oyunlara gelmeyen Alevilerin bu oyunu da bozacağına inanıyorum.

 

Source: here

15.       lemon
1374 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 12:44 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

So you mean Turks are lying or something? Why should he create or refer to  non-existant source for this sensitive issue?

 

Maybe Russian sites do not want be pro-Turkish. I never imagine a Russian would take side with Turks against Armenians whatever the truth is. Do you?

 

 

Why not? Who said that all Turks true speaking people? Every nation lies. Russians lie because they need to present the best picture of Russia avoiding dark parts of history. Armenians lie, Azeris lie, Turks lie. Oh, yes, we lie! It is natural. This goes to every single nation on the earth.

This sort of "documents" have appeared quite a few times now, mostly somewhere in russian libraries in moscow or somewhere again in russia. No one has seen the original, it is not scanned and uploaded on the website. All we hear is allegedly there is a document written by some officer Bolhovitinov whose exstence in the history was not of great importance, although most of his achievements were awarded for the service in the far east (china and japan). His name surfaces suddenly. I read about this Bolhovitinov actually. He comitted suicide apparently for being caught and tried for espionage and cooperation with the Red army.

And you are right russians and turks were always enemies  for nearly 5 centuries and constantly.

65 pages document!!! Amazing! http://news.day.az/politics/271252.html  here on azeri website this Turkish historian Mehmet Perenchek talks about the armenian lies. And again just a plain and dry  talk about "documents" he has found in russian archives during his 10 years of research (wow impressive, ten years). No archival document number, no reference. etc.

And I have a little note to Mr. Thunder since hes silent. This generals name was Bolhovitinov not Bolhovitinova. 

 

Btw, who knows, the document might be true. and reported atrocities could be true. who knows?

If armenians seeing the russian advance started feeling to gain a chance to free themselves from the ottoman burden being supported by british and french, yes, they could have done such thing. armenians arent saint just as turks arent.

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16.       tunci
7149 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 01:55 pm

 

History judges itself... For us , as people  living in" modern age" it is easy to judge the historic events without considering the conditions of events that happened in the past.

Instead of gaining lessons from the history , some people create "animosity" and raise their kids by washing their brains.

If we want to make a formula of [tragic or untragic] historic events took place is quite simple;

CAUSE -------------------------------------------> RESULT

Cause = Armenians were provoked by Russians 

Result = Armenian gangs armed by Russian were formed.

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = Armenian gangs with cooperating Russian started etnic cleansing in the east of Turkey

Result = Many innocent Turks were killed, burned alive in the barns,,[including pregnant women, kids,elderly]

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = This killings made Ottoman goverment started taking actions [sending there troops, deportation of Armenians.

Result = During this deportation to Syria or other places, because of a long journey some Armenians were killed of sickness...etc..  

-----------------------------------------------------------

1. What lessons can be gained from this event;

 a. We should always be aware of any provacation that is gonna threaten our unity.

 b. Ethnic nationalisizm is a poison that destroys the nations.

 c. We should look at both sides NOT one side..[both sides had suffered from this event]

 -------------------------------------------------------------

I personally patriotic person. I love my country. My people..I am proud of being Turk...But I am oppose to ethnic nationalism..You have to defence yourself and you have to punish torturers..but you have no right to kill or torture the innocent people..

I always proudly say that Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! In this statement of Ataturk, being a Turk means anyone who feels like he/she belongs to Turkish Nation..[it could be german, kurd,arab, french..whoever see himself/herself as a Turk , he/she is Turk]



Edited (12/15/2011) by tunci

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17.       harp00n
3993 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 02:49 pm

I think, if you learn something about Armenians and what have they done, you must read "Private Letters of Enver Pasha" and his dairy.

18.       lemon
1374 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 05:59 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

I personally patriotic person. I love my country. My people..I am proud of being Turk...But I am oppose to ethnic nationalism..You have to defence yourself and you have to punish torturers..but you have no right to kill or torture the innocent people..

I always proudly say that Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! In this statement of Ataturk, being a Turk means anyone who feels like he/she belongs to Turkish Nation..[it could be german, kurd,arab, french..whoever see himself/herself as a Turk , he/she is Turk]

 

Sure, you can be patriotic and loyal to your country and a national hero Ataturk. Thousands of Turks are born and die everyday. Is that a sense of your whole life? Is it the whole meaning? You will die like your ancestors died, they too lived and had causes to live for. Did your ancestors before Ataturk say Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! ? Before they became Turks?

Were you born to be a Turk and serve the ideology of Turkishness? Or were you born to be a human being wanting to serve God and only Him? Because He created you for Himself.

Does whatever you do satisfy to its full meaning? Well, lets say you die under a flag of Turkey defending your country, what happens next? You join heavenly Turkey? Is there a continuation of what we have today?

You often repeat things and ideas you were raised with since you remember yourself. You were bombarded with patriotic spirit in your family, school, work, books, papers, films, songs, poems, art. Wherever you went it was the same thing that filled your life. What is your uniqueness? Who are you? Where are you heading? What will happen to you?

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

19.       si++
3785 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 06:45 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

 

I don´t care about genetics. I am still happy to call myself a Türk.

What are you after, lemon?

20.       tunci
7149 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 07:18 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Sure, you can be patriotic and loyal to your country and a national hero Ataturk. Thousands of Turks are born and die everyday. Is that a sense of your whole life? Is it the whole meaning? You will die like your ancestors died, they too lived and had causes to live for. Did your ancestors before Ataturk say Ne Mutlu Türküm diyene ! ? Before they became Turks?

Were you born to be a Turk and serve the ideology of Turkishness? Or were you born to be a human being wanting to serve God and only Him? Because He created you for Himself.

Does whatever you do satisfy to its full meaning? Well, lets say you die under a flag of Turkey defending your country, what happens next? You join heavenly Turkey? Is there a continuation of what we have today?

You often repeat things and ideas you were raised with since you remember yourself. You were bombarded with patriotic spirit in your family, school, work, books, papers, films, songs, poems, art. Wherever you went it was the same thing that filled your life. What is your uniqueness? Who are you? Where are you heading? What will happen to you?

What happens if you find out that you are armenian? or jewish or arab?


 

 

 After your Judgements , I am more proud of being a Turk. Open your eyes and reread my post.You are asking who am I , Dont worry I know who am I. But seems like you are the one who doesnt know who he/she is. 

If you had read my post you would see the answer of that question.

Only one question for you ;

Why is that you suddenly appear when there is a subject that critisizing , blaming Turkish or Turkiye ? Is that your mission or what ? If it is , my friend, then you are in the wrong path..

I repeat again, No matter what nationality [jew,arab,armenian,german,papua new gineu..] people come from, If they feel like-they belong to Turkish nation , then He/She is Turkish.  I know  you cant understand this unless you change your judgemantel mind.

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21.       acute
202 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 08:21 pm

Sometimes people just have to move on. Recanting  an historical event is like  listening to 5 people arguing at a kitchen table about what just happened before the pot of soup fell off the stove.

There will be many offers of explanations, many stories and many perspective views offered, whether right or wrong  the pot of soup is on still on the floor.

Same with genocide issues and past historical fights/wars/threats.

Most people try to solve these issues in the terms of a reconciliation which are influenced as two person model of thinking ( reestablishment of  harmony )

When you have an argument with a person you love do you continue for the rest of your life throwing darts at them about a particular issue or do you learn to move on.

Reconcilliation is measured very differently when you ask someone  what they want or how they want something corrected/ fixed / compensated. Therefore what has been done is done whether right or wrong.

Everyone should be proud of who they are and know that what they do today in actions and in thinking will mold the children of the future.

HIstory and reports and situations are faulty at the best of time as we all want to look either very good or the victum.

lets not be victums now by being idiots and  fighting each other with harsh and hostile words

Everyday is a new world , how do you want to contribute?



Edited (12/15/2011) by acute

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22.       lemon
1374 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 09:32 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 After your Judgements , I am more proud of being a Turk. Open your eyes and reread my post.You are asking who am I , Dont worry I know who am I. But seems like you are the one who doesnt know who he/she is. 

If you had read my post you would see the answer of that question.

Only one question for you ;

Why is that you suddenly appear when there is a subject that critisizing , blaming Turkish or Turkiye ? Is that your mission or what ? If it is , my friend, then you are in the wrong path..

I repeat again, No matter what nationality [jew,arab,armenian,german,papua new gineu..] people come from, If they feel like-they belong to Turkish nation , then He/She is Turkish.  I know  you cant understand this unless you change your judgemantel mind.

 

What judgements dear child?

I care less if you write on your forehead TURK and tattoed whole of your body with Turkish flag and the image of Ataturk. These things are your god apparently. After all why not boast and explode? 

I know exactly who I am. I belong to Gods Kingdom because I am saved by the holy blood of Christ. And His Kingdom is not from this earth. And I know where exactly I am heading after this life, to His Great Judgement.

I appear whenever I want to appear since I am not fond of threads like: what music do you like? what best turkish music? or what do you eat or dress?

My mission is to speak what I have on my mind.

If Turks never killed or didnt commit a genocide on Armenians then why worry and keep defending yourselves? If I had my heart clean and feel no guilt I wouldnt look for justification, I wouldnt create thousands of websites and post documents with no proof of its existence. I wouldnt even pay attention.

All such actions prove otherwise.

The difference between me and you is that you talk of your god that is called turkey and I talk of my God who is almighty and giver of love and salvation.

You talk earthly and I talk heavenly. You will never be able to understand because you were always seeing carnal that is no hope and will be rotten. as all things will perish.

I can understand you and know what you feel. Been there. But I have hope for I was blessed to understand the beforetaste of Gods grace.

You are blind, you cannot see more and above. You are limitted. You are in a box, a prison of yourself.

 

23.       acute
202 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 10:03 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

You talk earthly and I talk heavenly. You will never be able to understand because you were always seeing carnal that is no hope and will be rotten. as all things will perish.

I can understand you and know what you feel. Been there. But I have hope for I was blessed to understand the beforetaste of Gods grace.

You are blind, you cannot see more and above. You are limitted. You are in a box, a prison of yourself.

 

 

Lemon I hate to be the bearer of bad news but  if you had any idea about theology you would not be so noble in your limited understanding of christianity.

Christianity was a derritive of Judaism a split because at one time you had to be Jewish and believe in the jewish faith in order to be christian. It was Paul not Jesus who established the faith and broke into new theological ground by establishing faith as the essential componet of salvation rather than personal fullillment  in one´s life which was part of Jewish Law. Under Pauls  direction  he made a new Christian faith by laying claim to it being universal. Also the arguments  of Chistiology - was Jesu a man, was he truly biologically conceived and born of a virgin ( again this was claimed almost 400 years after his birth ) Did God come first and then creat Jesus does that make Jesus number 2. and many more still exist today. Bible could just be a good novel or a poorly written one also

This nonsense was the cause of many military conflicts and divided people which sparked civil death for the first 3 centuries. All old history and ideas. Actually Christianity had no official legal status and was considered only a movement during this time. If you look at the three major religions. Judaisim, Christianity and Islamism all have many common strengths and many common stories and adaptations. And they all believe in the same God. There have been many scriptures not accepted. So if you think because Tunci says he is a proud Turk he  has limitations and  has boxed himself in.  I dont´ agree.
Think again about your claim and fame to Chistianity it is a dead over done religion and change more often than the sheets in a poor whore house.

Try to study more perhaps Marcionism or Arianism( Arius c 250-335 ) theologian who was born in Libya and educated in Antioch )



Edited (12/15/2011) by acute
Edited (12/15/2011) by acute
Edited (12/15/2011) by acute

24.       tunci
7149 posts
 15 Dec 2011 Thu 10:08 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

What judgements dear child?

I care less if you write on your forehead TURK and tattoed whole of your body with Turkish flag and the image of Ataturk. JUDGMENT --->These things are your god apparently. After all why not boast and explode? 

I know exactly who I am. I belong to Gods Kingdom because I am saved by the holy blood of Christ. And His Kingdom is not from this earth. And I know where exactly I am heading after this life, to His Great Judgement.

I appear whenever I want to appear since I am not fond of threads like: what music do you like? what best turkish music? or what do you eat or dress?

My mission is to speak what I have on my mind.

If Turks never killed or didnt commit a genocide on Armenians then why worry and keep defending yourselves? If I had my heart clean and feel no guilt I wouldnt look for justification, I wouldnt create thousands of websites and post documents with no proof of its existence. I wouldnt even pay attention.

All such actions prove otherwise.

The difference between me and you is that JUDGMENT ---> you talk of your god that is called turkey and I talk of my God who is almighty and giver of love and salvation.

You talk earthly and I talk heavenly. You will never be able to understand because you were always seeing carnal that is no hope and will be rotten. as all things will perish.

I can understand you and know what you feel. Been there. But I have hope for I was blessed to understand the beforetaste of Gods grace.

JUDGMENT -->You are blind, JUDGMENT you cannot see more and above. JUDGMENT -->You are limitted. JUDGMENT -->You are in a box, a prison of yourself.

 

 

 I want to start my words by saying you can know a person from its fruits..

  You keep contradicting yourself.

 I believe in One God  and I dont put anything or anyone in God´s place.

I dont think Christ is happy with your aggressive way of sharing His gospel.

I dont think Christ is happy with your JUDGEMENTS..

Let me remind you one of the essential command of Jesus in Bible ;

DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS... DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS... shall I say one more time ? or am I talking to a brick wall ?

You are talking about LOVE , but I cant see any love or affection in your words..

You are suppossed to be Light and Salt for this world as a Christian, all I can see from you is Accusing words ..

I dont think you are belong to God´s Kingdom... For In God´s Kingdom there is ;

a. unlimited love

b. forgiveness

c. compassion

d. affection

e. feeling sorry for others

***************************************************************

 



Edited (12/15/2011) by tunci

25.       lemon
1374 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 10:33 am

No, Tnuci, your God is Ataturk and Turkey. Why I say so? Because you spend hundreds of time thinking about him and your country. You dedicate almost your entire life and all your heart for the causes of the patriotic ideologies.Your posts are the witness to it.

Your posts are about turkishness and never about God. Your praises are directed to turkishness and not towards God.

And I am not your judge. The judge is God. Bible judges you, not me. I just repeat after Bible. These are not my thoughts, because He hates idolatry. Idolatry can be anything. Anything that you give your heart more than to God your creator, is an idol.

So idol can be your friend whom you love so much, it can be yourself, it can be your parents, country, food, expensive car, drugs, ideology. Everything!

Tunci, you live one life. And its not about living it decently. It is about living it for God, to please Him. It is devoting your heart to Him above all traditions and expectations of people.

I told you that there is no Turkey on the other side of death. There is no patriotism. There is only God and His great love.

26.       lemon
1374 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 11:10 am

 

Quoting acute

 

 

Lemon I hate to be the bearer of bad news but  if you had any idea about theology you would not be so noble in your limited understanding of christianity.

Christianity was a derritive of Judaism a split because at one time you had to be Jewish and believe in the jewish faith in order to be christian. It was Paul not Jesus who established the faith and broke into new theological ground by establishing faith as the essential componet of salvation rather than personal fullillment  in one´s life which was part of Jewish Law. Under Pauls  direction  he made a new Christian faith by laying claim to it being universal. Also the arguments  of Chistiology - was Jesu a man, was he truly biologically conceived and born of a virgin ( again this was claimed almost 400 years after his birth ) Did God come first and then creat Jesus does that make Jesus number 2. and many more still exist today. Bible could just be a good novel or a poorly written one also

This nonsense was the cause of many military conflicts and divided people which sparked civil death for the first 3 centuries. All old history and ideas. Actually Christianity had no official legal status and was considered only a movement during this time. If you look at the three major religions. Judaisim, Christianity and Islamism all have many common strengths and many common stories and adaptations. And they all believe in the same God. There have been many scriptures not accepted. So if you think because Tunci says he is a proud Turk he  has limitations and  has boxed himself in.  I dont´ agree.
Think again about your claim and fame to Chistianity it is a dead over done religion and change more often than the sheets in a poor whore house.

Try to study more perhaps Marcionism or Arianism( Arius c 250-335 ) theologian who was born in Libya and educated in Antioch )

 

Acute,

In the beginning God created heaven and earth. This same God destroyed sending flood. This God also chose Abraham who wasnt a Jew.

Jewish nation starts from Israel. You know who Israel is, right?

So God created for Himself a new nation out of one line. Multiplied them and gave commandments. He also promised to bring Savior from Jewish nation to the whole world. So He did.

Paul was sent to pagans by Christ. He was a well known and respected pharisee before Christ called him. He dedicated his entire life to serve Christ, he was beaten, jailed, suffered all sort of things in the end he was executed. Why would anyone devote his entire life to bring Good News if he himself a Jew? Why would he refuse his nice life of a noble man from a noble family, a roman citizen? Why doesnt he have a comfortable life just being saved himself and his fellow countrymen? Why bother and risk your life going out to unknown nations and rebuke them for their sins and turn away from their idols?

After all Paul didnt enjoy the wealth of this world neither had a family happy life. He lost everything.

Usually false prophets risk their lives to gain popularity along all its gifts of earthly life. Take any of them. Sai baba e.g. Or Muhammed. They lived a good life. They had power, they had wealth, they had women.

The true messengers put their lives for God, they ignore their needs, they see no value in earthly things, they are not attached to the happiness of this life.

None of the apostles survived persecution except John whom Christ kept in the island of Patmos from where he constantly wrote letters to churches in Turkey. He too had no personal life.

They didnt start wars, they didnt take part in wars. All they did was spreading Good News.

 

The crusade wars you talk about is the continuation of roman empire and its politics. It desperately needed to expand and protect its territory.

Jesus never was a part of politics nor he was interested in military actions. Read New Testament and you will see that the true Christianity is about losing, giving, suffering for grace and NEVER using power or starting wars or even defending yourself.

Jesus says turn your other cheek, give your clothe away, pray for and bless your enemies.

So dear Acute, I invite first to read Bible before you judge God Almighty. How do you judge Paul or Christianity if you have never read Bible?

Its like I criticise a film without seeing it or reading just someone else´s references?

Be honest and sincere. Do not think that you are wiser than the Bible or followers of it. Put all your prejudices away and sincerely do a research.

I question everything. Do you?

 

27.       acute
202 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 11:50 am

Actually I have read the bible completely and I still frown upon words made by man. It is all heresay and not correct. As I said the bible text has change many times. Things omitted things deleted things added just like a the script of a movie. Live as you wish but don´t make yourself out to be any better than any other  person who thinks differently from you. Allow them to think as they wish without your insults. You may disagree with them and you are entitled to disagree and say you disagree and your thoughts as to why and don´t slam dunk another person with insults. Just say you disagree , say your point or belief and move on. Quit trying to justify your lifestyle your choices  by saying demeaning remarks who don´t agrre with your thoughts or lifestyle. And quit trying to be a judge of anothers charactor with your bible thumping charade it just isn´t working.

28.       si++
3785 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 12:37 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

If Turks never killed or didnt commit a genocide on Armenians then why worry and keep defending yourselves? If I had my heart clean and feel no guilt I wouldnt look for justification, I wouldnt create thousands of websites and post documents with no proof of its existence. I wouldnt even pay attention.

All such actions prove otherwise.

 

Come on lemon, if you know something about the issue share with us here.

What makes you think that we worry for it?

 

French parliament are about the legistlate a law that punish those who deny the "so-called" genocide for example? Should I worry? No not at all. I hope they pass it. They will only belittle themselves.

Every year we hear the news that US parliament will recognise the "so-called" genocide. I hope they do it. They will only belittle themselves.

 

I hope they do it, really. But then again based on what will they do it? What do they know? Where are the proofs?

29.       lemon
1374 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 01:08 pm

 

Quoting acute

Actually I have read the bible completely and I still frown upon words made by man.

No, you never read it.   I am a 100% sure of it.

It is all heresay and not correct. As I said the bible text has change many times. Things omitted things deleted things added just like a the script of a movie.

Then, prove it. Show where exactly it was changed, deleted? Show me the original and then show me the changed versions.

You know I love checking, questioning and searching. If I say this is correct and this is incorrect then I must have something in my hand to prove so. Otherwise we all can talk rubbish with nothing to cover our behinds.

Live as you wish but don´t make yourself out to be any better than any other  person who thinks differently from you.

Hey! Wait a minute, I live according to Bible not my own made rules. I am no way better than you or your friend Tunci. I never ever said such a thing. So dont lie pls. I am the same sinner as you are, but I am saved and God looks at me through His Son Jesus. That makes me better not my personality or deeds.

Allow them to think as they wish without your insults. You may disagree with them and you are entitled to disagree and say you disagree and your thoughts as to why and don´t slam dunk another person with insults.

Tunci and other do certainly live the way they want and chose. I am not there to supervise their lives. I disagree and agree, whats the deal?

Just say you disagree , say your point or belief and move on.

Mr Judge and be better than God, I said my point, you said my point. Keep your finger in your pocket. Move on, dear. Please, do not come back to tell me what to do. Move on.

Quit trying to justify your lifestyle your choices  by saying demeaning remarks who don´t agrre with your thoughts or lifestyle.

Quit trying to be more knowledgable than God.

Where do you see any justification? Why should I justify? Whats wrong with it? Have I done anything wrong? Bible says all humans fell short of his grace. And I repeat that. Acute, you cannot be my judge, nor a teacher or judge. Your authority is nothing, You are another man who will die soon and turn into dust. Who are you to question God and His authority? He created everything.

And quit trying to be a judge of anothers charactor with your bible thumping charade it just isn´t working.

I repeat, its not me who is the judge, its God! God says you will all perish, because you have your start and your end. You will die as the way you were born. He judges you!

 

 

30.       lemon
1374 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 01:19 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

If Turks never killed or didnt commit a genocide on Armenians then why worry and keep defending yourselves? If I had my heart clean and feel no guilt I wouldnt look for justification, I wouldnt create thousands of websites and post documents with no proof of its existence. I wouldnt even pay attention.

All such actions prove otherwise.

 

Come on lemon, if you know something about the issue share with us here.

What makes you think that we worry for it?

 

French parliament are about the legistlate a law that punish those who deny the "so-called" genocide for example? Should I worry? No not at all. I hope they pass it. They will only belittle themselves.

Every year we hear the news that US parliament will recognise the "so-called" genocide. I hope they do it. They will only belittle themselves.

 

I hope they do it, really. But then again based on what will they do it? What do they know? Where are the proofs?

 

hahaha You worry. Because you start talking about it. Its turkish wanna-be historians start this, its them write articles. its you and tunci and others write posts to defend yourselves before the world.

why do you feel guilty? why do you try to justify it?

Have you seen any armenian on this website defending their cause? No!

(We never hear armenians starting a trouble over it, we never hear them bombarding articles in newspapers. They are somehow silent.)

Its on and on and on you guys repeatedly washing and wahsing the stubborn stains of the past.

Forgive and go on. We all killed each other in the past. some less some more. Theres no way to go back and fix it, the only cure is to forgive and carry on.

I wish Turkey prosper and seek peace.

 

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31.       si++
3785 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 01:25 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

hahaha You worry. No I don´t. Because you start talking about it. Its turkish wanna-be historians start this, its them write articles. its you and tunci and others write posts to defend yourselves before the world.

why do you feel guilty? why do you try to justify it? No I don´t. It´s just you who think so.

Have you seen any armenian on this website defending their cause? No! Yes I have! Disguised as Turks here and tried to.

(We never hear armenians starting a trouble over it, we never hear them bombarding articles in newspapers. They are somehow silent.)

Its on and on and on you guys repeatedly washing and wahsing the stubborn stains of the past.

Forgive and go on. We all killed each other in the past. some less some more. Theres no way to go back and fix it, the only cure is to forgive and carry on.

I wish Turkey prosper and seek peace.

 

 

You are boring lemon. Stop playing with words and be direct. If you know something please share with us here.

32.       stumpy
638 posts
 16 Dec 2011 Fri 07:21 pm

since this has gone of topic I do not see why I should keep quiet

It is hypocritical to preach that God(the Christian version) is all loving and all caring and all forgiving, benevolant God.  So when a few "loving" quotes are selected from the bible to prove a point then be carefull because there are others out there that are also knowligdable about the bible, some have had to study it for 12 years, this forced upon them by the church and family.

Do you know that the old and new testement are the holy books that have most violence done onto man by God and violence done by man at the "request" of God himself, three times more violence then the Qu´ran.

God has ordered genocides and commited genocides en mass. 

When he ordered that the earth be covered in water to rid it of evil, he basicly commited genocide by allowing Noah and his select few to survive.

When the first borns of Egypt were condemmed to die on passover to force the Fahro to "Let my people go", that is infantecide, ie genocide

When Sodom and Gomorah were sentence for destruction by fire and brimestone... genocide

The bible is a record of war, famine, fire, torture, animal mutilation, infanticide, cannibalism, execution, mutilation, beatings and floggins, plundering, defernestation, hail, poisoning, human sacrifice,earthquakes, earth swalloing people, sexual assault and violent protagonists.

And for all those attroceties this is how god explains it: "This will teach all the churches that I am the searcher of men´s hearts and thoughts, and that I will reward each one of you according to his deeds."

So before anyone can apoligise for what ever reasons have God appoligise for the crimes he commited and the crimes that were and are still being commited in his name, for a true god would not kill or ask man ti kill in his name.  Do not use the bible as a teaching tool for love and tolerance because it is also a tool of hate and intolerance by his own actions.

 



Edited (12/16/2011) by stumpy

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33.       scalpel
1472 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 12:50 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

CAUSE -------------------------------------------> RESULT

Cause = Armenians were provoked by Russians 

Result = Armenian gangs armed by Russian were formed.

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = Armenian gangs with cooperating Russian started etnic cleansing in the east of Turkey

Result = Many innocent Turks were killed, burned alive in the barns,,[including pregnant women, kids,elderly]

----------------------------------------------------------

Cause = This killings made Ottoman goverment started taking actions [sending there troops, deportation of Armenians.

Result = During this deportation to Syria or other places, because of a long journey some Armenians were killed of sickness...etc..  

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Hocam, here is the summary of what you said: they deserved what they got.. I have an objection at this point.. In that conflict, The Ottoman government did not treat its subjects with equal concern and respect.. They took the Turkish/muslim side.. and the Armenians / christians were driven out and uprooted from their own lands.. if there was any ethnic cleansing at that period of time, it was carried out by the Turkish side against Armenians..  

"They stabbed us from back and we made them pay for their treachery.. it was they who started the war, not us.. blah blah " are nothing but empty words.. and they don´t justify what Turks did to Armenians..  

 



Edited (12/17/2011) by scalpel

lemon liked this message
34.       tunci
7149 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 01:04 am

 

Quoting scalpel

 

 

Hocam, here is the summary of what you said: they deserved what they got.. I have an objection at this point.. In that conflict, The Ottoman government did not treat its subjects with equal concern and respect.. They took the Turkish/muslim side.. and the Armenians / christians were driven out and uprooted from their own lands.. if there was any ethnic cleansing at that period of time, it was carried out by the Turkish side against Armenians..  

"They stabbed us from back and we made them pay for their treachery.. it was they who started the war, not us.. blah blah " are nothing but empty words.. and they don´t justify what Turks did to Armenians..  

 

 

 Ustad , your summary is wrong. If you had read the rest of my post you would see ;

1. What lessons can be gained from this event;

 a. We should always be aware of any provacation that is gonna threaten our unity.

 b. Ethnic nationalisizm is a poison that destroys the nations.

 c. We should look at both sides NOT one side..[both sides had suffered from this event

 

You say "if there was any ethnic cleansing at that period of time, it was carried out by the Turkish side against Armenians..  "

Let´s forget all history reports, all books, all rumors...and just listen to Survivors of that event ; watch this link please ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2CGuI7hfCE

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa1RwBmuyus&feature=related



Edited (12/17/2011) by tunci

35.       scalpel
1472 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 03:15 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 Ustad , your summary is wrong. If you had read the rest of my post you would see ;

 

 

 

My summary is right, hocam.

 

Armenians were provoked by Russians 

Armenian gangs armed by Russian were formed.

Armenian gangs with cooperating Russian started etnic cleansing in the east of Turkey

Many innocent Turks were killed, burned alive in the barns,,[including pregnant women, kids,elderly]

This killings made Ottoman goverment started taking actions [sending there troops, deportation of Armenians.

During this deportation to Syria or other places, because of a long journey some Armenians were killed of sickness...etc..  

 

The gist of the above words of yours is clear: they deserved what they got. 

The rest of your post about lessons are just dead, cliche phrases. Wink

And, hocam, it´s a shame that you made the relocation look as if it was a touristic journey to Syria {#emotions_dlg.shame}

 

 

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36.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 05:03 am

Ok,

So far no specific document, no reference number, no name of archive or library.

No international council of historians to aprove the discovery.

No official statement.

 

All mystery, impossible to trace, cheap sensations, a great halo over nothing.

 

37.       stumpy
638 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 08:12 am

the same can be said for the blind faith some have in the bible

38.       si++
3785 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:03 am

 

Quoting lemon

Ok,

So far no specific document, no reference number, no name of archive or library.

No international council of historians to aprove the discovery.

No official statement.

 

All mystery, impossible to trace, cheap sensations, a great halo over nothing.

 

Right!

 

I was expectig some from you. You always come here with your pro-Armenian views and say something like:

 

You Türks are <X>, then it must be <Y>.

 

I am curious of what you know about the subject, lemon. Share your knowledge with us. Enlighten us.

39.       si++
3785 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:11 am

 

Quoting scalpel

 

 

 

My summary is right, hocam.

 

Armenians were provoked by Russians 

Armenian gangs armed by Russian were formed.

Armenian gangs with cooperating Russian started etnic cleansing in the east of Turkey

Many innocent Turks were killed, burned alive in the barns,,[including pregnant women, kids,elderly]

This killings made Ottoman goverment started taking actions [sending there troops, deportation of Armenians.

During this deportation to Syria or other places, because of a long journey some Armenians were killed of sickness...etc..  

 

The gist of the above words of yours is clear: they deserved what they got. 

The rest of your post about lessons are just dead, cliche phrases. Wink

And, hocam, it´s a shame that you made the relocation look as if it was a touristic journey to Syria {#emotions_dlg.shame}

 

 

 

It´s your conclusion that they deserved what they got.

I would rephrase it as "It was an outcome of what you listed above".

 

And as for your list, to which items do  you have an objection? all of them?

 

Ottoman government was right about the relocation (not deportation, deportation means something else right?). They were killing each other. They had to be separated? So what were you expecting? Leave Armenians where they were and relocate the Muslims?

40.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:25 am

 

Quoting si++

 

Right!

 

I was expectig some from you. You always come here with your pro-Armenian views and say something like:

 

You Türks are <X>, then it must be <Y>.

 

I am curious of what you know about the subject, lemon. Share your knowledge with us. Enlighten us.

No, -Ice,

First, it was you guys who came with this mystical document, not me. All I did was an investigation. Since I speak Russian and digged and read most websites that google threw in. And I found no proof for the authentication thereof.

Second, you are wrong, I am not pro-armenian. Neither you or armenians are my relatives.

Third, I never start threads like Turks blah blah.

And finally I just join the discussion, contribute something, and I dont have to speak only Turkish pleasing or Turkish flattering statements. Things must be said objectively. If the document is authentic and you can prove it so, bring it on, let me have a look. And then I will have to say: Yes, this document indeed sheds some light on the deeds happent in the past.

I said, and I will repeat neither parts are angels.

 

41.       acute
202 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:32 am

 

Quoting lemon

 

If the document is authentic and you can prove it so, bring it on, let me have a look. And then I will have to say: Yes, this document indeed sheds some light on the deeds happent in the past.

 

 

 

I am sure you would dispute and argue your own birth certificate.{#emotions_dlg.you_crazy}

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42.       si++
3785 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:45 am

 

Quoting lemon

 

No, -Ice,

First, it was you guys who came with this mystical document, not me. All I did was an investigation. Since I speak Russian and digged and read most websites that google threw in. And I found no proof for the authentication thereof. You were given a name and some report content. That you have found no prrof yourself doesn´t mean there is not such a report. Let´s assume there is no such thing for a second. So does that make the content invalid? Go read the content which I posted here and come say to which items you have an objections to then we can move forward from there.

Second, you are wrong, I am not pro-armenian. (huh? now should I belive this or what you have kept saying so far?? {#emotions_dlg.unsure})Neither you or armenians are my relatives.

Third, I never start threads like Turks blah blah. What do you mean? This is a site about Turkish, Turkia and Turks. What else were you expecting? That said, I personally start threads about Armenians and Greeks and Arabs and Dutch and Ukranians and ... on some occasions. Also you can go ahead and start some yourself if you wish. That´s an option too.

And finally I just join the discussion, contribute something, and I dont have to speak only Turkish pleasing or Turkish flattering statements. Things must be said objectively. If the document is authentic and you can prove it so, bring it on, let me have a look. And then I will have to say: Yes, this document indeed sheds some light on the deeds happent in the past.

I said, and I will repeat neither parts are angels.

 

 

 

43.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 10:51 am

 

Quoting acute

 

 

I am sure you would dispute and argue your own birth certificate.{#emotions_dlg.you_crazy}

 

Acute, do you have anything interesting to add to the topic, maybe you have some interesting thoughts to share on Turkish-Armenian matters? Maybe you ve read tons of materials and discussed it with many different people? Maybe you are a shy expert disguising yourself as an off topic instigator?

44.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 11:05 am

--Ice,

Of course you are right! I am all wrong. Turks are angels. Ataturk is god. Turkey is heaven. All who say otherwise must be cast away.

As for that I dont start topics on Turkey is I meant I dont start HateTurkey threads.

All I am saying is lets move on. Nations come and go. There were greater nations and empires once. Most perished. Turkey once wasnt Turkey and your blood ancestors didnt speak Turkish neither they were muslims.

Who knows what your descendants be and speak? Nothing is eternal. As fo the End is coming soon.

45.       si++
3785 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 11:11 am

 

Quoting lemon

--Ice,

Of course you are right! I am all wrong. Turks are angels. Ataturk is god. Turkey is heaven. All who say otherwise must be cast away.

As for that I dont start topics on Turkey is I meant I dont start HateTurkey threads.

All I am saying is lets move on. Nations come and go. There were greater nations and empires once. Most perished. Turkey once wasnt Turkey and your blood ancestors didnt speak Turkish neither they were muslims.

Who knows what your descendants be and speak? Nothing is eternal. As fo the End is coming soon.

 

Come on lemon,

 

It´s all same pattern al the time.

Türks are <X>, (then they are <Y>.

 

As for "hate Turks/Turkia", I will start one, I expect your contribution.

46.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 11:26 am

--Ice,

What you do now is just pure teasing with no purpose or whatsever. It makes you angry that a Kazakh doesnt speak favourable things to which you are used to.

Most Kazakhs adore Turkey, they consider Turks as brothers. Theres a huge turkish business blooming in Kazakhstan. Nearly 30% of cafes and shops are Turkish. Kazakhstan is a big market for Turks, we buy everything from Turkey and praise the quality. We invite many Turkish architects and engineers.

I am no way sort of anti-Turkish, just stubborn and straightforward, wanting honestly say what I think.

Why would I be anti-Turkish on a Turkish site? It is ilogic, isnt it? I rather gain huge favour and popularity among Turks speaking compliments like some people here who suck up to you.

 

47.       si++
3785 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 11:28 am

 

Quoting lemon

--Ice,

What you do now is just pure teasing with no purpose or whatsever. It makes you angry that a Kazakh doesnt speak favourable things to which you are used to.

Most Kazakhs adore Turkey, they consider Turks as brothers. Theres a huge turkish business blooming in Kazakhstan. Nearly 30% of cafes and shops are Turkish. Kazakhstan is a big market for Turks, we buy everything from Turkey and praise the quality. We invite many Turkish architects and engineers.

I am no way sort of anti-Turkish, just stubborn and straightforward, wanting honestly say what I think.

Why would I be anti-Turkish on a Turkish site? It is ilogic, isnt it? I rather gain huge favour and popularity among Turks speaking compliments like some people here who suck up to you.

 

 

Also I have started a thread about Kazak Turkish. I expect your contribution.

48.       lemon
1374 posts
 17 Dec 2011 Sat 11:30 am

That was too quick. You must be bored this Saturday morning. 

49.       scalpel
1472 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 01:29 am

 

Quoting si++

 

 

It´s your conclusion that they deserved what they got.

I would rephrase it as "It was an outcome of what you listed above".

 

And as for your list*, to which items do  you have an objection? all of them?

 

Ottoman government was right about the relocation (not deportation, deportation means something else right?)**. They were killing each other. They had to be separated? So what were you expecting? Leave Armenians where they were and relocate the Muslims?

 

*See the post nr.16 above.. tunci´s post.. you will find the original list there in that post.. The list is not mine.. I was just commenting on tunci´s list.. I don´t think tunci hoca needs someone else to defend his views.. 

**deportation was tunci´s choice for "tehcir".. I used relocation.. 

 

Next time read the posts more carefully before commenting on them  {#emotions_dlg.whistle}

As for your above words that I underlined..

Firstly the unimportant part: your matching is wrong: armenians x muslims

It should be Turks x Armenians or Muslims x Christians .. right? Wink

Secondly the important part (in which there is a clear racist and fascist features): They had to be separated? So what were you expecting? Leave Armenians where they were and relocate the Muslims?

 

Why not the muslims? Because the muslims were the real owners of the country? Because the muslims had some privileges that christians did not? Because the christians were the minority and weak? Because the muslims were the majority and held the power?.. Or maybe it was completing the islamization of Anatolia?.. No, no side had to be separated.. why did the Armenians have to be? Why do you make it look as if it was the only option to relocate the Armenians in Syria? Was the problem solved that way? Maybe the Armenian relocation was not a sistemic act of killing but yet a crime against humanity. If you say, "in order to save their lives from the Turkish attacks we decided to relocate the Armenians in Syria, but unfortunately, nearly half of them died from hunger and diseases since proper precautions were not taken because there was a tough war going on..blah blah ", you must not expect the others to understand you..    

 

 



Edited (12/18/2011) by scalpel

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50.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 02:38 am

I guess only divine justice can solve this problem and we can only make it worse like we always do. And here most of the people discuss this issue to satisfy their egos they dont give a shit about the victims of this war.

51.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 09:18 am

 

Quoting gokuyum

I guess only divine justice can solve this problem and we can only make it worse like we always do. And here most of the people discuss this issue to satisfy their egos they dont give a shit about the victims of this war.

 

Thats right, Gokuyum, its true. Users like Si++ and Tunci dont give a toss about the victims all they care is the honor of Turkey, nothing more. They feel no pain, no sytmpathy when talking about killings but pure honor, for this honor if the government says go and kill more, they will go and kill. And I am sure, Gokuyum, you will join them.

52.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 10:37 am

 

Quoting scalpel

 

 

*See the post nr.16 above.. tunci´s post.. you will find the original list there in that post.. The list is not mine.. I was just commenting on tunci´s list.. I don´t think tunci hoca needs someone else to defend his views.. 

**deportation was tunci´s choice for "tehcir".. I used relocation.. 

 

Next time read the posts more carefully before commenting on them  {#emotions_dlg.whistle}

It´s not your call to tell me what to read. I replied your post and your view about the list of item which you have quoted and commented.

As for your above words that I underlined..

Firstly the unimportant part: your matching is wrong: armenians x muslims

It should be Turks x Armenians or Muslims x Christians .. right? Wink

Muslims = Mostly Kurds + Turks which is a short hand.

Christians = Armenians

Secondly the important part (in which there is a clear racist and fascist features): They had to be separated? So what were you expecting? Leave Armenians where they were and relocate the Muslims?

It´s you labeling. I don´t see any fascism and rasicm in there. I see some rationale.

Yes they had to be separated. Ottoman government was right. I would do the same if I were the one to decide.

 

Why not the muslims? Why? You say it. Because the muslims were the real owners of the country? Because the muslims had some privileges that christians did not? True Because the christians were the minority That´s also true and weak weak? What do you mean by weak? They have the power to attack civillians and soldiers and were killing them? Because the muslims were the majority true and held the power true?.. Or maybe it was completing the islamization of Anatolia? I don´t think there was such an intention. .. No, no side had to be separated.. Yes they had to. why did the Armenians have to be? So who? you say it. Why do you make it look as if it was the only option to relocate the Armenians in Syria? So where should it be? You say it. Was the problem solved that way? Maybe the Armenian relocation was not a sistemic act of killing but yet a crime against humanity. Maybe the courts are there. Armenians can file case right as Jews did. If you say, "in order to save their lives from the Turkish attacks They were the ones who were attacking in Russian uniforms and as gangs. we decided to relocate the Armenians in Syria, but unfortunately, nearly half of them died from hunger and diseases since proper precautions were not taken because there was a tough war going on..blah blah ", Yes it was a tragedy you must not expect the others to understand you..   I don´t expect anything.

 

 

 

 

53.       si++
3785 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 10:39 am

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Thats right, Gokuyum, its true. Users like Si++ and Tunci dont give a toss about the victims all they care is the honor of Turkey, nothing more. They feel no pain, no sytmpathy when talking about killings but pure honor, for this honor if the government says go and kill more, they will go and kill. And I am sure, Gokuyum, you will join them.

 

Lemon,

These are strong words. I ask you to quote where I did say things like that.

54.       tunci
7149 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 12:34 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Thats right, Gokuyum, its true. Users like Si++ and Tunci dont give a toss about the victims all they care is the honor of Turkey, nothing more. They feel no pain, no sytmpathy when talking about killings but pure honor, for this honor if the government says go and kill more, they will go and kill. And I am sure, Gokuyum, you will join them.

 

Lemon, I am totaly convinced that you are NOT normal. You should get a professional help from a psychologist. I hope you[inşallah] will get your psychological health back one day..[this is my prayer] but now ; I just want to give a quotation from " Ghazali " [ Great Philosopher] ;

 He said ;  " Cahillerle tartışmaya girmeyin , ben hiç yenemedim "

"Do not argue with an ignorant [people] since I never won it [arguement with ignorant] "

 



Edited (12/18/2011) by tunci

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55.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 01:31 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Lemon,

These are strong words. I ask you to quote where I did say things like that.

 

This is a general impression I have reading your posts and knowing you for a few years. A general impression on Turkish patriotism. I might be wrong.

I am sorry if I ve said too strong words.

56.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 01:32 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

Lemon, I am totaly convinced that you are NOT normal. You should get a professional help from a psychologist. I hope you[inşallah] will get your psychological health back one day..[this is my prayer] but now ; I just want to give a quotation from " Ghazali " [ Great Philosopher] ;

 He said ;  " Cahillerle tartışmaya girmeyin , ben hiç yenemedim "

"Do not argue with an ignorant [people] since I never won it [arguement with ignorant] "

 

 

I´ve forgiven you.

57.       tunci
7149 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 01:45 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

I´ve forgiven you.

 

 I am so relieved  !, thank you.

I like it when you are nice. You can be nice if you want...God bless you..

58.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 01:46 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

 

 I am so relieved  !, thank you.

I like it when you are nice. You can be nice if you want...God bless you..

 

Thank you.   Enjoy your day.

59.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 04:49 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Thats right, Gokuyum, its true. Users like Si++ and Tunci dont give a toss about the victims all they care is the honor of Turkey, nothing more. They feel no pain, no sytmpathy when talking about killings but pure honor, for this honor if the government says go and kill more, they will go and kill. And I am sure, Gokuyum, you will join them.

You turned this discussion into your own show lemon. Don´t expect me to believe that you are sincere. Nobody can bring back deads by arguing and fighting but they can create more victims. No nation is innocent. And there is no real justice in this world. Every nation can blame other easily with genocide. And this will take us nowhere. I trust only God´s judgement not humans´.

 

60.       lemon
1374 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 05:39 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

You turned this discussion into your own show lemon.

My show? I just joined in to say that theres nothing here to backup the claims.  The rest was off topic that naturally comes out often. From one thought to another. Logically linked.

Don´t expect me to believe that you are sincere.

I never had an expectation. I feel no such need.

Nobody can bring back deads by arguing and fighting but they can create more victims. No nation is innocent. And there is no real justice in this world. Every nation can blame other easily with genocide. And this will take us nowhere. I trust only God´s judgement not humans´.

Completely agree.

 

 

 

61.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 18 Dec 2011 Sun 05:59 pm

During the time period in which so many Armenians, Turks, Kurds, Greeks, other Europeans, (ect...) died.  I find it a bit strange to argue who massacred whom the most. Maybe its just me, but when reading any account of what happened, it just seems like a sad ,sad time where many innocents died to satisfy the few in power.  One side trying to hold on to power, another trying to gain power and the others fighting over scraps from the table.  Will we ever learn to resist the call to war?  Nothing good ever comes of it and the price is far to high.  

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62.       stumpy
638 posts
 19 Dec 2011 Mon 07:07 pm

the most difficult will be to stop looking at the past but to look towards the future, to be able to move forward one has to look forward, when you keep looking back at the past the wounds cannot heal and nothing good can come out of it.

63.       si++
3785 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 06:48 pm

 

Quoting stumpy

the most difficult will be to stop looking at the past but to look towards the future, to be able to move forward one has to look forward, when you keep looking back at the past the wounds cannot heal and nothing good can come out of it.

 

The Armenian will not do it. They don´t want to forget it and will do anything they need to do to always remember it.

 

Usually one needs to forget the bad things happened in the past. It happened to Turks as well. We have opted to forget about those bad things (what we went through in Balkans & Anatolia after 1877 until we founded our new state).

64.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 07:18 pm

 

Turkey´s Armenians uneasy about France´s genocide bill

20 December 2011 / YONCA POYRAZ DOĞAN, İSTANBUL
Orhan Dink (Photo: Cihan)
As the French parliament is set to vote soon on a piece of legislation which would make denial that events occurring in Turkey in 1915 constituted genocide punishable by up to one year in prison and a fine of 45,000 euros, Turkey´s Armenian community is uneasy about the development.

One prominent figure who voiced opposition to the bill is Orhan Dink, brother of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who was assassinated outside his office by an ultranationalist teenager. “Similar legislation was debated in the French parliament in 2001 and 2006. My brother Hrant Dink strongly opposed it. This legislation completely violates human rights,” he said in a live television program on Monday evening.

Dink pointed out that Hrant Dink was convicted of violating Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code (TCK), an article that has been criticized for stifling freedom of speech as it forbids insulting "Turkishness." “That´s why he was murdered. It is natural for us to oppose that legislation in France. My brother was against it when he was alive. Even though he was murdered because of such a racist law, we have never felt hatred, and we are still against the [French] legislation because it violates human rights,” he said.

Dink also called on diaspora Armenians, saying they should object to the French legislation because it is an “insult” to them. “This pain should not be left in the hands of people who are in politics.

I call on my brothers, relatives, friends and people who share my pain; they should be against this legislation, be against this human rights violation. Don’t make our pain a tool to be used in politics,” he said referring to the events of 1915.

Armenians say 1.5 million Anatolian Armenians were killed in a systematic genocide campaign during the World War I. Turkey says the figures are inflated and insists that the killings occurred as the Ottoman Empire was trying to quell an uprising of Armenians, who revolted against Ottoman rule for independence, in collaboration with the Russian army, which was then invading eastern Anatolia.

In an apparent reference to Turkish accusations against France for ignoring its bloody past, Dink also said: “I want to send this message to politicians of both countries: Everybody should look at themselves in the mirror. A debate over who is worse than who will bring no result.”

According to academic Ohannes Kılıçdağı, it is obvious that the French legislation restricts freedom of speech because it requires punishment for people who deny that the events that occurred in 1915 in Turkey were genocide.

“Neither those who say that it was genocide nor those who say that it was not should be punished,” he said answering Today’s Zaman’s questions. “Penal codes should be differentiated from a mere expression of facts in order to share the pain of people who suffered as a result of what happened in 1915.”

Kılıçdağı also believes initiatives such as the one in France could negatively influence efforts to find solutions to problems between Turks and Armenians. “The ‘Armenian’ has a negative connotation in Turkey. Such initiatives would make it even more negative and increase tension. However, it is up to the decision makers to control those negative effects,” said Kılıçdağı who is the co-author of the report “Hearing Out Turkey’s Armenians: Problems, Demands, and Suggestions for a Solution.”

The study had stated: “The Armenian community, which has avoided visibility in Turkish society and which has isolated itself throughout republican history due to discriminatory policies and attitudes, started to raise its voice since the mid 1990s, and its demands for equal citizenship and respect for the Armenian identity reverberated in the democratization process starting in the 2000s.”As the emerging Armenian civil society started to make its voice heard in Turkey, they have also established connections with Turkish and Kurdish civil society.

Garo Paylan, a long-time leader in Armenian institutions in Turkey, said because of that interaction it was possible to organize an event in Turkey two years ago on April 24 to commemorate the 1915 tragedy. “It was the biggest news because Armenians, Turks and Kurds were there. If we are able to remember what happened, then there is no need for Sarkozy to use the issue in his dirty political games. As long as Parliament in Turkey is silent over the issue, others will use the issue for their own benefit, not to share our pain,” he said.

In the same line of thought, journalist and writer Markar Esayan indicated in his Monday column in the Taraf daily, that French President Nicolas Sarkozy is obviously after political gains considering that France is heading into a presidential election next year. “If a person who was massacred in a place in Anatolia in 1915 was able to be reincarnated and reach Sarkozy, s/he would spit in Sarkozy’s face and say, ‘You are making political gains out of my pain.’ But his or her grandchildren could not have such a clear stance because this is now a blood feud, and anything goes when it comes to striking out against the ‘other side’.”

Meanwhile, Turkey has threatened to withdraw its ambassador to France if the bill is passed, while Ankara has lashed out at Paris, saying the country should investigate alleged French abuses in Algeria and Rwanda instead. France had troops in Rwanda, and Rwandan President Paul Kagame has accused the country of doing little to stop the country’s genocide.

 

65.       stumpy
638 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 07:51 pm

oh my, like France is a pure as the driven snow, they should resolve their own issues and problems before telling Turkey what to do and France should be carefull because that kind of a bill can come back and bite them in the a** because they have been party to many genocides in their illustrious past.  I wonder if they have a similar bill and send to prison people who say the holocaust did not occur?

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66.       tunci
7149 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 08:35 pm

 

Quoting stumpy

oh my, like France is a pure as the driven snow, they should resolve their own issues and problems before telling Turkey what to do and France should be carefull because that kind of a bill can come back and bite them in the a** because they have been party to many genocides in their illustrious past.  I wonder if they have a similar bill and send to prison people who say the holocaust did not occur?

 

 Absolutely ..  "pure as the driven snow "   We should remind them what did they do in Algeria and in their other colonies.  such a hypocritical attitude of so called "civilised" Europe..

Evet, one day , may be soon, that bill will bite them in the most suitable place of them. [ I couldnt pronounce that word here ....]

 

67.       stumpy
638 posts
 20 Dec 2011 Tue 10:54 pm

Quote: tunci

Evet, one day , may be soon, that bill will bite them in the most suitable place of them.
that is what happens when one has their heads in the sand...  There is a particular part of the body that sticks out more prodominetly  {#emotions_dlg.bigsmile}

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68.       Mr.Thunder
31 posts
 21 Dec 2011 Wed 08:36 pm

Sorry for being late to write here again. I did not know that this thread would receive so many messages. A few days after my message I only saw the message of Si++. I did not sign in for a long time to check the discussions here.

 

Anyway, 

 

I first should answer the questions about the authenticity of the historical documents I mentioned in my first message.

 

I had seen the original Russian, English and Turkish translations of the reports of the Russian General many years ago.They were published by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Although his reports were published as a book it was rediscovered by the Turkish media several years ago. There is no question about the authenticity of these documents.

 

About the reports of the British Intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel , You can refer to the book of Prof. Mim Kemal Öke ,"Musul-Kürdistan Sorunu". There He gives quotations from the documents with the documents codes, archive registry numbers etc.  Just like O.T.E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)  Major Noel is a well known name for those who are interested in the history of the Middle East.

 

 I mentioned those two sources of information but there are plenty of documents and other kinds of evindence proving the fact that the so called "genocide" was only an anti Turkish propaganda ( a slander) in WW I.  The Armenian ultra-nationalist organisations tried to cover up their own crimes while they were trying to persuade the Western countries to support their "Greater Armenia" project.

 

The Armenians could not succeed because they were not a majority in any region in Anatolia.  They restorted to the method of ethnic cleansing and terrorising the muslim people in the region. In 1915 the city of Van was invaded. The Armenians made a terrible massacre and established their government there. This is a historical fact.

 

In World War I , Turkey fought against England, France and Russia. In 1918 the WW I ended and Istanbul was invaded by a coalition of the enemy forces.  The British prosecuted the charges of so called massacres of Armenians  and many Turkish officials, parliamentarians and army commanders were arrested and exiled to Malta. The British Military Court tried these people.  For nearly 3 years they searched for evidence. In search of evidence they talked to the Armenian people and visited the remote places of Anatolia where Armenians were allegedly mistreated and talked to the people there, asked them questions about the events of WW I.  In the end they found out that such charges were FALSE and acquitted all the Turkish officials in 1921.

 

This issue was closed in the early 1920s. It remained so untill the mid 1960s. In 1953 when Celal Bayar the Turkish President visited the USA as the first Turkish president visiting the USA  He was embraced by the Armenians living there. They met him at the airport with the banners in their hands saying "Our President, Welcome to America".  But things started to change in the mid 1960s when Turkey had a serious political crisis with the United States. ( Turkey had threatened the USA by implying that she could leave the NATO when President Lyndon Johnson said that the NATO would not help Turkey against the  Soviet Union in case a war broke out because of the Cyprus problem. )

 

  The origins of today´s Armenian issue can be found in the cold war years. In the late 1950s with the support of the KGB the notorious Armenian terrorist organisation ASALA was founded in Beirut.  Gaidz Minnassian, an Armenian academic at Sorbone University wrote the unknown story of this Armenian question in his important book  "Guerre et Terrorisme Armeniens"

http://www.amazon.fr/Guerre-Terrorisme-arm%C3%A9niens-Ga%C3%AFdz-Minassian/dp/2130526578

Présentation de l´éditeur

Le terrorisme contre la Turquie (1975-1985) et la guerre du Haut-Karabakh (1988-1994), les deux thématiques de l´actualité de la question arménienne de 1970 à nos jours, ont pour principal fil conducteur une organisation révolutionnaire centenaire, la Fédération révolutionnaire arménienne ou parti Dachnak créé en 1890 et favorable à la création d´une grande Arménie entre la Turquie et la Russie. Cette Fédération est implantée dans plus de 30 Etats sous forme d´un réseau semi-légal, ayant participé au terrorisme contre la Turquie (1975-1985), puis à la guerre arméno-azérie du Haut-Karabakh (1988-1994) entretenant et réactivant aujourd´hui le rêve d´une grande Arménie.

L´auteur vu par l´éditeur

Gaïdz Minassian est docteur en science politique, journaliste au Monde, chargé d´étude au centre de recherche sur l´Asie, Université de Paris X - Nanterre (Laboratoire d´analyse des systèmes politiques).Préface de Gérard Chaliand
     This notorious terrorist organisation ASALA murdered many innocent people including the Turkish diplomats and the civilians. They bombed the Orly Airpot in France and killed many Euoropen civillians too.
 
     In 1982, Artin Penik,  an Armenian peace activist protested the Armenian terrorism and their propagandas against Turkey  and set fire to himself in the Taksim square of Istanbul. Unfortunately he died. In his interview before his death He told that He had been among the Armenians in Europe and America and witnessed to the horrible plans against Turkey. He revealed that in the future they would be a problem for all the governments in the world. They were used by the imperialist powers against Turkey.
    Watch here his last message He gave two days before his death in the hostpital in 1982.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGXvUkpYoFc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited (12/21/2011) by Mr.Thunder
Edited (12/21/2011) by Mr.Thunder
Edited (12/22/2011) by Mr.Thunder

69.       lemon
1374 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 07:46 am

 

Quoting Mr.Thunder

I had seen the original Russian, English and Turkish translations of the reports of the Russian General many years ago.They were published by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Although his reports were published as a book it was rediscovered by the Turkish media several years ago. There is no question about the authenticity of these documents.

 

About the reports of the British Intelligence officer Major E.W.C Noel , You can refer to the book of Prof. Mim Kemal Öke ,"Musul-Kürdistan Sorunu". There He gives quotations from the documents with the documents codes, archive registry numbers etc.  Just like O.T.E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)  Major Noel is a well known name for those who are interested in the history of the Middle East.

 

Well, it looks like we have to trust you. Thank you for bringing so many proofs and helping us to see the original documents. It was helpful to read your answer richly decorated with truthful records from trustful sources.

To be honest, I have to confess you something. I ve never told anyone before but I am a grandaughter of Haile Selassie I, the Lion of Judah. There is a well known historian Borat Hrint who did some search on Haile´s bloodline. To their great surprise the search brought them directly to me. This is mentioned in Hrint´s book "Sheba and the Lion". The book is a well documented collection of authentic papers, reports and photos and published under the guidance and approval of Rastafarian Government.

There is also a well-known persona Hyppolit of Russia. If you type his name in the search engine you will immediately find tons of interesting encyclopedian sources because he is as popular as Major B.C. Christmas.

 



Edited (12/22/2011) by lemon [just added two more important letters, the initials of the major. :)]

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70.       tunci
7149 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 12:18 pm

 

THE ASALA TERRORIST ORGANIZATION

During the new phase of Armenian terrorism from 1973 to 1985, the terrorist organization most frequently mentioned was ASALA (The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia). No information has yet been published on its establishment, structure and activities. With regard to ASALA, various Armenian sources and publications provide information about certain individuals, and the results of terrorist activity, mostly obtained from publications issued by the organization or terrorist group. This is information, which the terrorist group wishes to publish or does not object to having published. With regard to the founding of ASALA, some publications link it with the events in Lebanon; they take the view that it was established under the inspiration of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, within which it had been active. Others claim that it was founded by a small group of Armenians, who, within a short time, carried out the most sensational and effective acts of terrorism of the period. All this is very far from providing a complete explanation of how ASALA was founded. Until the conditions under which ASALA first appeared as an organization are better known and the gap it filled is more satisfactorily elucidated, present doubts will continue for a long time to come.

It is generally known that the first Armenian terrorist activities of the new period were in accordance with the policies and targets of the Dashnak terrorist organization. Throughout the course of history as well as in the period under discussion, the Dashnaks were completely pro-Western. They adopted a policy of limited terrorist activity, which was directed basically against Turkish targets, and, as revealed by various sources of evidence, they obtained help and support from the Western states; in fact, they collaborated with them. Basically, their principles and historical development did not allow them to adopt a different approach. In this situation, one sphere of activity still remained. Namely that relating to the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, which appealed to the younger Marxist Revolutionary generations and, particularly, to the "New Armenian Resistance Organizations", in France. In fact, this area had long since been filled by the Hunchaks. Since 1960, they, with their various points of view, had also been preparing for a new period of terror. However, the Hunchaks were not in evidence, and a terrorist organization, wishing to be regarded as completely new, appeared on the scene in the guise of ASALA. When the factors leading to the new period of Armenian terrorism are taken into consideration and their aims and policies, especially as a Hunchak terrorist organization, are examined, the conclusion can be reached that ASALA is a terrorist offshoot of the Hunchaks. It was above all the conditions and new developments in Lebanon that lay behind the emergence of this group as a new terrorist organization, which because known for the various acts of terrorism for which it claimed responsibility. In fact, no significant change has taken place. The two Armenian terrorist organizations once again occupy the centre of the stage against the backdrop of history. The first is more in evidence, operating through its terrorist offshoots, whilst the second operates under cover, in the guise of a terrorist group to which it has given manpower and expertise, as well as moral support. This group in turn carries out terrorist activities through subsidiary groups and teams.

1.      Foundation and Organizational Structure

ASALA was founded in 1975. The leader of this terror organization is known to have been Agop Agopian, one of the two most active members of the six or seven founding members. The second was Agop Tarakdjian, who was personally involved in terrorism and other criminal activity and who ensured the continued existence of the organization in the absence of Agop Agopian. The second of these two men died in 1981, whilst the first continued as leader throughout the whole of this period, apart from the time spent under treatment for wound received. He was well known as a mucahid and a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization.

The organization was structured in accordance with the general practice of the Armenian terrorist groups. The Lebanon Central Committee was the supreme executive body. In 1980 this committee took on a very important form in the Lebanon and assumed the nature of a "bureau". Subordinate to the Central Committee were bodies such as the Political Committee, the Finance Committee, the Propaganda and Information Committee, the Intelligence Committee and the Military Committee. Subordinate to the Military Committee were a number of operational teams.

2.      Aims and Objectives

ASALA revealed to the world its aims and objectives in a "political programme" published in the end of 1981. According to this, the aim of ASALA was “the foundation of a united Armenia under the leadership of a democratic, socialist, revolutionary government”. The identity of the government in question is quite clear from the definition. All aid was welcome from the USSR and other socialist countries, while at the same time Soviet Armenia was accepted as a base in "the long struggle of the Armenian people".

In this political programme their enemies were divided into two groups. The first of these was the Dashnak Armenian terrorist group, and all the "regional reactionaries" who opposed, or at least failed to support ASALA. The second was "Turkish imperialism, aided and abetted by international imperialism".

ASALA believed that “the only way of liberating Armenian territory was through the use of violence”, and issued public announcements to this effect. According to their programme, ASALA was to support all those who rejected the domination of the ruling classes and who were willing to work towards the foundation and strengthening of coalitions within the international revolutionary movement. Violence and terror formed an essential element in this programme.

In order to realise ASALA´s aims and objectives it was not essential that terrorist activities should be directed solely against Turks and the friends of Turkey, or against people in positions of power or authority. "Terror is a phenomenon" and the important point is its scope and dimension. The actual targets may be of secondary importance. Greatest stress it to be laid on murders and massacres that will arouse violent public reaction. Whether the targets are men, women or children, Turks or non-Turks, is of little significance. Nevertheless, first importance was to be given to attacks on Turkey and the Turks. The importance of the attacks and massacres carried out in the airports of Paris and Istanbul, in the Istanbul Covered Market and the airport of Orly, lay entirely in the nature and violence of the reaction these were aimed at arousing.

3. Strategy, Attitudes and Behaviour

The essential aim of ASALA was to make the Lebanon the centre for all progressive Armenian movements throughout the world and the point from which all operations would be directed. In short, all progressive Armenian groups were to unite in the Lebanon and for the basis for an "ASALA Popular Movement". In this way, all progressive Armenians could enter into an official organization in which their individual strengths could be united.

An attempt was made in the summer of 1981 to put this section of ASALA strategy into effect by calling all progressive Armenians to a meeting in the Lebanon. By "progressive" was meant "Marxist-Leninist".

The second stage of this strategy began with the terrorist activities and open war undertaken by the organization thus founded with the help of certain socialist states. Armenian terror formed an integral part of the struggle for independence in the Middle East, uniting with other movements directed against the integrity of Turkish territory. This led inevitably to the union of ASALA and PKK.

ASALA was clearly a terrorist organization in attitude and behaviour. In all ranks of the administration terror and the implementation of terror was regarded as an essential feature of the organization. The leaders murdered one another, liquidated those of whom they disapproved or had them done away with. Apart from this, each terrorist team was presented to world opinion as if it were a separate Armenian organization and all types of propaganda were carried on by this means. Responsibility for the crimes committed were assumed by various organizations whose names had never before been heard of. A list is to be found in an appendix at the end of this Introduction showing how in 1981 and 1982 the murders, crimes, bombings and raids were carried out by a single organization but attributed to groups with a variety of different names. By examining this list the reader will find a number of operations claimed to have been carried out by a great many different Armenian groups but which actually all bear the mark of a single team and a single organization. All these so-called independent groups remained subordinate to and directed by ASALA itself.

4.      Political developments

The first stage in the political development of ASALA, which is generally agreed to have been founded in 1975, was highly effective, and the organization was strengthened by new forces recruited during the Armenian Congress in Paris in 1979. It gained further strength in 1981. In 1983 it split into two factions.

The first operation carried out by ASALA was the assassination by Agop Tarakdjian, one of the founders of the organization, of Oktay Cerit, First Secretary in the Turkish Embassy in Beirut, on 16 February 1976. The period up to 1979 was marked by ASALA´s involvement in the conflicts between the various Palestinian groups, in the course of which Agopian, one of the leaders, was wounded. Links with the Armenian terrorists in France were established during the Armenian Congress meeting in Paris in 1979, which saw the organization strengthened by the addition of new elements and fresh blood. The most famous of the new members were Alex Yenikomshian and Monte Melkian. In 1981 a number of terrorist attacks carried out by ASALA on innocent groups or individuals having severely shaken its standing in world public opinion. Following the Israeli occupation of the Lebanon the ASALA leaders were forced to leave the Lebanon along with the Palestinians. A split in the organization took place in 1983.

• The Agop Agopian Group - This was centred in Greece and the Middle East. Its terror was directed indiscriminately against Turks and non-Turks, as well as against innocent women and children. It was this group that was responsible for the attack at Orly.

• In Western Europe the movement operated under the name of the "Asala Revolutionary Movement". This followed a more moderate course of action and directed its terror solely against Turks. The leaders of this group were Monte Melkonian and Ara Toranian. Toranian was the leader of a group centred in Paris known as the "Armenian National Movement" which described the Orly attack as a purely Fascist operation.

Melkonian, who had been born in Iran, declared his intention of setting the Armenian struggle on a sound political footing. According to this the movement had two aims; to rouse the Armenians to action, and to make common cause with other groups in their struggle against Turkey. In this second stage, Melkonian was involved in establishing alliances with other groups while Agopian continued with his own type of activity.

5. Support and Alliances

ASALA received support from three main sources:

1.The Soviet Union, the Eastern block and other socialist countries.

2.Countries such as Greece and Syria whose geopolitical expectations depended on the destabilisation of Turkey from within and without.

3.Various communist parties, indirectly from the Hunchak Armenian terrorist organization and its sympathisers, and also from the Armenian church, in spite of its difference in outlook.

In ASALA´s links with other groups first priority was given to relations with non-Armenian terror groups which threatened Turkey directly or indirectly, and whose activities ran parallel to the strategy implemented by ASALA itself. In the period between 1976 and 1980 these consisted of groups such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, activist members of the various communist parties and the secret services belonging to certain states. In 1980 ASALA widened the scope of its activities following the agreement reached with PICK at a meeting in Sidon in the Lebanon, thus establishing unity of outlook and action between ASALA and PKK. As a matter of fact, these two organizations had already displayed a marked affinity in aims, structure and beliefs. From 1983 onwards ASALA relations began to develop along the lines of the strategy laid down by Monte Melkonian. First priority was given to terrorist activity within Turkey, and links were established with any group capable of furthering this strategy by either direct or indirect means. These groups were headed by PKK, the Turkish CommunistParty and other communist organizations.

6.      Publications and information media

ASALA´s most important, official organ is Haiastan

Other important publications include the periodicals Hai-Baikar, Armenia and Kaytzer, published in London.

ASALA´s first radio broadcasts began in 1981 in Beyrut with a daily one-hour programme "The Voice of the Armenians in the Lebanon". Apart from these, facilities are provided by the public radio corporations and mass communication media belonging to countries with which it has established contacts.

ASALA — MR

Monta Melkonian (Meykonyan) who left ASALA and passed to France in September 1983 has disclosed that he has founded the ASALA — The Military Apparatus Of People’ s Movement, ASALA — Revolutionary Movement (ASALA — MR). The recovering of the relations with the French Government, which deteriorated has been their most important goal. While it was being thought that these would do their actions in Turkey, they have taken the North American and Western European wings totally under their own control and attracted the militants in these regions to their line. Melkonian, was killed in 1993 in Nagorno Karabakh while he was fighting against Azerbaijanis.   

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/terrorism/organisation.html

 

71.       tunci
7149 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 12:22 pm

 

TURKISH DIPLOMATS KILLED BY THE ARMENIAN TERRORISTS DURING THEIR DUTY

The main targets of Armenian terror organizations, ASALA in particular, were now being chosen from among Turkish diplomats abroad. The first of the series of terrorist attacks was carried out against Mehmet Baydar, the Turkish Consul General in Los Angeles and his Deputy, Bahadir Demir. The assassinations were perpetrated by an Armenian by the name of Gurgen Yanikan in 1973. This individual action turned into organized Armenian terror as of 1975 and further escalated as of 1979. 110 acts of terror were carried out by Armenian terrorists in 38 cities of 21 countries. 39 of these were armed attacks, 70 of them bomb attacks and one was an occupation. 42 Turkish diplomats and 4 foreign nationals were assassinated in these attacks, while 15 Turks and 66 foreign nationals were wounded.

MEHMET BAYDAR

27 January 1973

Los Angeles/USA

The Armenian assaults against Turkish citizens started in 1973 when Mehmet Baydar and Bahadir Demir, Turkish Consul General and Consul in Los Angeles, were murdered by a 78-year-old American Armenian named Gurgen (Karakin) Yanikian.

Inviting Baydar and Demir to the Baltimore Hotel in Santa Barbara by declaring that he wished to give a painting of Abdulhamid as a gift to Turkey, Yanikian shot the two Turkish diplomats dead. He was arrested for murder and sentenced to life imprisonment, Yanikian was paroled on 31 December 1984 and died shortly afterwards.

This incident, constituting the first assault against the Turkish diplomats, launched a chain of murders and became a template for the subsequent attacks by Armenian terrorists. 



BAHADIR DEMIR

27 January 1973

Los Angeles/USA

The Armenian assaults against Turkish citizens started in 1973 when Mehmet Baydar and Bahadir Demir, Turkish Consul General and Consul in Los Angeles, were murdered by a 78-year-old American Armenian named Gurgen (Karakin) Yanikian.

Inviting Baydar and Demir to the Baltimore Hotel in Santa Barbara by declaring that he wished to give a painting of Abdulhamid as a gift to Turkey, Yanikian shot the two Turkish diplomats dead. He was arrested for murder and sentenced to life imprisonment, Yanikian was paroled on 31 December 1984 and died shortly afterwards.

This incident, constituting the first assault against the Turkish diplomats, launched a chain of murders and became a template for the subsequent attacks by Armenian terrorists.



DANIS TUNALIGIL

Vienna/Austria

 22 October 1975

Turkey’s Vienna Ambassador Danis Tunaligil was murdered by three terrorists raiding the Embassy.

When the Turkish Airline Office in Beyrouth was bombed on 20 February 1975, the letter left in the location by ASALA’s Esir Yanikian group that undertook the attack’s responsibility declared that they would fight against the imperialists for the Armenians’ rightful case and that the attacks would aim at Turkey, Iran and United States and that this case was only a beginning.

On 22 October 1975, three persons bearing automatic weapons forced their way into the Turkish Embassy in Vienna, neutralised the guards and entered the Ambassador’s office. Receiving an affirmative reply to their question in Turkish to Danis Tunaligil if he were the Ambassador, they shoot him with automatic weapons. Tunaligil died on the spot and the murderers rapidly left the premises and fled in an automobile.



ISMAIL EREZ

Paris/France

 24 October 1975

Turkey’s Paris Ambassador Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered in the vicinity of the Embassy. The Ambassador’s car was ambushed at around 13.30 hours at the Bir Hakeim Bridge on Seine River and Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered by automatic weapon fire. The attack

was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos.



TALIP YENER

Paris/France

 24 October 1975

Turkey’s Paris Ambassador Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered in the vicinity of the Embassy. The Ambassador’s car was ambushed at around 13.30 hours at the Bir Hakeim Bridge on Seine River and Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered by automatic weapon fire. The attack

was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos.



OKTAR CIRIT

Beyrouth/Lebanon

16 February 1976

Turkey’s Beyrouth Embassy First Secretary Oktar Cirit became the victim of Armenian terrorism while sitting at a hall. The attack was owned by the ASALA, which made its name known for the first time.



TAHA CARIM

Rome/Italy

9 June 1977

Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Taha Carim was killed by the cross fire of two terrorists in front of the Embassy’s residence. The attack was owned this time by the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation.



NECLA KUNERALP

Madrid/Spain

2 June 1978

Three terrorists opened fire on the car of Turkey’s Madrid Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp whose wife Necla Kuneralp and retired Ambassador Besir Balcioglu lost their lives in this attack owned by the organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation. For the first time in this incident, a foreigner had lost his life in an attack directed against Turks. That was the Ambassador’s driver Antonio Torres.


BESIR BALCIOGLU

Madrid/Spain

2 June 1978

Three terrorists opened fire on the car of Turkey’s Madrid Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp whose wife Necla Kuneralp and retired Ambassador Besir Balcioglu lost their lives in this attack owned by the organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation. For the first time in this incident, a foreigner had lost his life in an attack directed against Turks. That was the Ambassador’s driver Antonio Torres.



AHMET BENLER

The Hague/Netherlands

12 October 1979

Ahmet Benler, son of Turkey’s The Hague Ambassador Özdemir Benler, was killed in an armed attack. This case was owned separately by the ASALA and the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation.



YILMAZ COLPAN

Paris/France

22 December 1979

Turkey’s Paris Tourism Counsellor Yilmaz Colpan was murdered as a result of the attack by a terrorist. This case was the second attack in Paris of the Armenian terrorism. A person calling the news agencies thereafter said that the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos was responsible for the assaults in Rome, Madrid and Paris and added that it was killing the Turkish diplomats because Turkey did not grant the rights of Armenians.



GALIP ÖZMEN

Athens/Greece

31 July 1980

Turkey’s Athens Embassy Administrative Attaché Galip Özmen and his 14-year-old daughter Neslihan Özmen were killed in an armed attack by a terrorist while his wife Sevil Özmen and son Kaan Özmen survived though seriously wounded. The attack was owned this time by the ASALA.



NESLIHAN ÖZMEN

Athens/Greece

31 July 1980

Turkey’s Athens Embassy Administrative Attaché Galip Özmen and his 14-year-old daughter Neslihan Özmen were killed in an armed attack by a terrorist while his wife Sevil Özmen and son Kaan Özmen survived though seriously wounded. The attack was owned this time by the ASALA.



SARIK ARIYAK

Sydney/Australia

17 December 1980

Turkey’s Sydney Consul General Sarik Ariyak and his security guard Engin Sever became the victims of Armenian terrorism.

Aside from this case,

- Dogan Türkmen, Turkey’s Ambassador to Switzerland, came out alive from the attack on 6 February 1980 in Bern,

- Fire was opened on 17 April 1980 on the official car of Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Vecdi Türel. Both Türel and his security guard Tahsin Güvenc were wounded in this attack, and

- Selcuk Bakkalbasi, the Press Attaché of Turkish Embassy in Paris, was wounded in an armed attack on 26 September 1980.



ENGIN SEVER

Sydney/Australia

17 December 1980

Turkey’s Sydney Consul General Sarik Ariyak and his security guard Engin Sever became the victims of Armenian terrorism.

Aside from this case,

- Dogan Türkmen, Turkey’s Ambassador to Switzerland, came out alive from the attack on 6 February 1980 in Bern,

- Fire was opened on 17 April 1980 on the official car of Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Vecdi Türel. Both Türel and his security guard Tahsin Güvenc were wounded in this attack, and

- Selcuk Bakkalbasi, the Press Attaché of Turkish Embassy in Paris, was wounded in an armed attack on 26 September 1980.



RESAT MORALI

Paris/France

4 March 1981

Resat Morali and Tecelli Ari, Counsellors of Labour and Religious Affairs at the Turkish Embassy in Paris were attacked by two terrorists when they were taking their car in front of the Labour Attaché’s office. Morali was killed on the spot while the Religious Affairs Attaché Ari succumbed to death at the hospital where he was rushed with serious wounds. The attack was owned by ASALA in this third murderous attack of the Armenian terrorism and Turkey gave a protest note to France for not properly protecting the Turkish diplomats.



TECELLI ARI

Paris/France

4 March 1981

Resat Morali and Tecelli Ari, Counsellors of Labour and Religious Affairs at the Turkish Embassy in Paris were attacked by two terrorists when they were taking their car in front of the Labour Attaché’s office. Morali was killed on the spot while the Religious Affairs Attaché Ari succumbed to death at the hospital where he was rushed with serious wounds. The attack was owned by ASALA in this third murderous attack of the Armenian terrorism and Turkey gave a protest note to France for not properly protecting the Turkish diplomats.



M. SAVAS YERGÜZ

Geneva/Switzerland

9 June 1981

Mehmet Savas Yergüz, Secretary of the Turkish Consul General in Geneva, lost his life in an armed attack shortly after leaving the office for going home. The attack was owned by the ASALA. Mardiros Camgozian, the Lebanese Armenian terrorist arrested after the attack, received a 15-year imprisonment sentence.



CEMAL ÖZEN

Paris/France

24 September 1981

Four Armenian terrorists occupying the premises housing the Turkish Consulate General and the office of Cultural Attaché, hostaged 56 Turkish officials and citizens and killed security guard Cemal Özen who attempted to attack and wounded Consul General Kaya Inal. The terrorists wanted Turkey to release 12 political detainees and to send them to Paris. As they realised that this demand would not be complied with, they surrendered to the police some 15 hours after. Turkey warned France once more and France demented the attack that was owned by the ASALA. Four Armenian terrorists named Vasken Sakoseslian, Kevork Abraham Gozlian, Aram Avedis Basmacian and Agop Abraham Turfanian, received 7-year imprisonment sentences. The court verdict received a large dissentment in Turkey.

Also in 1981,

- Turkey’s Copenhagen Labour Attaché Cavit Demir came out with small arm wounds on 2 April in the lift of the apartment house where he lived, and

- Turkey’s Rome Embassy Second Secretary Gökberk Ergenekon survived with minor wounds an attack that was directed against him on 25 October on a street.



KEMAL ARIKAN

Los Angeles/USA

28 January 1982

Turkey’s Los Angeles Consul General Kemal Arikan was killed by the Tashnak militant Hampig Sasunian, who was sentenced to life imprisonment.



ORHAN GÜNDÜZ

Boston/USA

5 May 1982

Turkey’s Boston Honorary Consul General Orhan Gündüz was killed in an armed attack.



ERKUT AKBAY

Lisboa/Portuga

7 June 1982

Turkey’s Lisbon Embassy Administative Attaché Erkut Akbay died as a result of an armed attack on his car. His wife Nadide Akbay succumbed later to death at the hospital where she was brought with corporeal wounds.



NADIDE AKBAY

Lisboa/Portuga

7 June 1982

Turkey’s Lisbon Embassy Administative Attaché Erkut Akbay died as a result of an armed attack on his car. His wife Nadide Akbay succumbed later to death at the hospital where she was brought with corporeal wounds.



ATILLA ALKIKAT

Ottawa/Canada

27 August 1982

Atilla Alkikat, the Military Attaché at the Turkish Embassy in Ottawa, was killed in an armed assault.


BORA SÜELKAN

Bourgos/Bulgaria

9 September 1982

Bora Süerlan, Administrative Attaché of the Turkish Consulate General in Bourgos, was killed by a terrorist attack.

Also in 1982,

- Kani Güngör, Commercial Attaché in the Ottawa Embassy of Turkey, was wounded in an attack on 8 April,

- Kemal Demirer, Rotterdam Consul General of Turkey, was wounded in an attack in front of his residence on 21 July. He came out of this attack with minor wounds and the attacker was arrested while trying to get away.

- On 7 August, two ASALA terrorists made an armed attack in Esenboga Airport of Ankara. There were eight casualties and seventy two injuries in this attack, constituting the first within Turkey of the Armenian terrorism.




GALIP BALKAR

Beograd/Yugoslavia

9 March 1983

An armed assault was made against Turkey’s Belgrade Ambassador Galip Balkar on 9 March 1983 by two terrorists. Mortally wounded in this attack, Balkar died on 11 March. A Yugoslavian student also lost his life in this incident. Terrorists Kirkor Levonian and Raffi Alexander were sentenced to 20 years of imprisonment on 9 March 1984, exactly one year after the incident.


DURSUN AKSOY

Bruxelles/Belgium

14 July 1983

Turkey’s Brussels Embassy Administrative Attaché Dursun Aksoy was murdered by Armenian terrorists.


CAHIDE MIHCIOGLU

Lisboa/Portugal

27 July 1983

The Lisbon Embassy of Turkey was occupied and those within the building were hostaged by five Armenian terrorists. Cahide Mihcioglu, wife of Embassy Counsellor Yurtsev Mihcioglu, was  killed during this incident. The Portuguese police saved the hostages by an operation and killed all five terrorists. The attack was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Revolutionary Army, which threatened with death the Portuguese Prime Minister Mario Soarez because of the death of the terrorists.

On 16 June, a terrorist opened fire on the people at the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul. Two persons were killed and twenty-one were wounded in this attack of which the author was killed on the spot. It was later ascertained that he was an Armenian.

A bomb exploded in front of the Turkish Airlines office in Paris-Orly Airport. Two Turks, four Frenchmen, one American and one Swedish died and sixty-three persons, of whom twenty-eight were Turks were wounded in this attack, named later as the “Orly massacre”.


ISIK YÖNDER

Teheran/Iran

28 April 1984

Isik Yönder, husband of Turkey’s Teheran Embassy Secretary Sadiye Yönder, who was a businessman doing trade with Iran, was killed by an ASALA militant.


ERDOGAN ÖZEN

Wien/Austria

19 November 1984

Turkey’s Vienna Embassy Labour Attaché Erdogan Özen was killed as a result of the explosion of a bomb planted in his car. This incident was owned by the Armenian Revolutionary Army.


ENVER ERGUN

Wien/Austria

19 November 1984

Enver Ergün, an official at the UN Representation of Turkey, was killed as a result of the explosion of a bomb planted in his car. This incident too was owned by the Armenian Revolutionary Army.

A terrorist trying to plant a bomb on the car of Isil Ünel, Turkey’s Teheran Embassy Deputy Commercial Attaché, was blown to pieces as the bomb exploded in his hands on 28 March 1984.

The next day, Hasan Servet Öktem and Ismail Pamukcu, First Secretary and Deputy Attaché of the Turkish Embassy in Teheran, were wounded in an armed assault in front of their houses

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/diplomats/index.html

 



Edited (12/22/2011) by tunci

72.       tunci
7149 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 12:50 pm

 

73.       acute
202 posts
 22 Dec 2011 Thu 11:02 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

 

To be honest, I have to confess you something. I ve never told anyone before but I am a grandaughter of Haile Selassie I, the Lion of Judah. There is a well known historian Borat Hrint who did some search on Haile´s bloodline. To their great surprise the search brought them directly to me. This is mentioned in Hrint´s book "Sheba and the Lion". The book is a well documented collection of authentic papers, reports and photos and published under the guidance and approval of Rastafarian Government.

There is also a well-known persona Hyppolit of Russia. If you type his name in the search engine you will immediately find tons of interesting encyclopedian sources because he is as popular as Major B.C. Christmas.

 

honestly I don´t care who your grand daddy was  girl just get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwhich

 

74.       lemon
1374 posts
 23 Dec 2011 Fri 10:22 am

 

Quoting acute

 

honestly I don´t care who your grand daddy was  girl just get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwhich

 

 

Mr Troll, you got anything to add to the topic?

75.       lemon
1374 posts
 23 Dec 2011 Fri 10:38 am

Google throws in nothing about mr Noel aka mr Christmas. Nothing is known about him. He is not as known as Lawrence of Arabia. Everything you feed is thin air. Lies. Lies. Lies.

Nothing is also known about general Bolhovitinov, no official statement. Only from Azeri and Turkish sources. Im not surprised at all. so again lies lies and lies.

(and this is for those who dont own enough brain to understand my sarcasm): I too have created lies about my life story indicating that you can google my grandfather, a false historian, a never existed book to which I give no essential support except assurance that its true. If you believe your own tall tales then you have to believe my tales as well, both have no support. Good luck!

76.       acute
202 posts
 23 Dec 2011 Fri 07:32 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

Mr Troll, you got anything to add to the topic?

 

I am starting to think that religion is not putting a smile on your face at all Miss Lemon.

I am starting to think you have never been loved by a human before. I am sure others are thinking the same think you need a human to love you. But I don´t know you seem to be pretty miserable and untouchable and although I could claim to have you screaming " Oh God "  I don´t want to offer myself to you I am not that sure that perhaps being close to you would cause me to shrivel up. I think about acidity of a lemon and you might be just a little to caustic for my liking. Perhaps Mr Orange can put a happy smile on that sour puss of yours. You can work your way up to a human .......ahhhhhhh I always say little steps little steps......

 

jpg

77.       stumpy
638 posts
 28 Dec 2011 Wed 10:11 am

Since our friend lemon is so found of documentation:

"Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation." --Hamparsum Boyadjian, 1914

"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their retreat from Marash." Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner, February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.

"...that they [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population." Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40, November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269. -- From "Foreword:" "For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." p. 20 (second paragraph).

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished." p. 118.

"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms. Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot. Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety. This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene.... That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted and completely destroyed." p. 186.

"The Tartars were lying on the ground, bound hand and foot. ....Tartar women, who in their eagerness to see what was going on had thrown back their veils, were peering over the wall that enclosed the yard. At an order from the commandant the soldiers began beating the Tartars. The latter squirmed and screamed. The women raised a great uproar with their shrieks and pleadings that mercy be shown their men. The punishment continued until I thought it must be the intention of the commandant to have the men beaten to death. He invited me to take a stick and flog them. I could have found no pleasure in doing so and begged to be excused." p. 192.

"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores that had been left by the Turks." p. 193.

"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country." p. 195.

"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians." Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill, 1928, [The Bobbs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis]. (305 pages) (Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds.) p. 147.

"Between 1914 and 1920, two and a half million Muslim people were murdered by the Armenians in Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia." Source: "Van Turkish Genocide Museum: Ottoman and Western Documents on the Genocide Committed by the Armenians Against the Turks," by Prof F. Hertas, 1984, Ankara

 

So as you can see lemon there are 2 sides to every story

78.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Dec 2011 Fri 09:22 am

 

This exerpt is from the Hunchak website in Australia, as one can clearly see, terrorism is a policy and tactic. 

"Ill. The Hunchak program advocated revolution as the only means of reaching the immediate objective. The arena of revolutionary activity was designated as Turkish Armenia. The Hunchaks said that the existing social organization in Turkish Armenia could be changed by violence against the Turkish government and described the following methods: Propaganda, Agitation, Terror, Organization, and Peasant and Worker Activities.

Propaganda was to be directed to the people to educate them toward two goals. The party was to explain to them the basic reasons and the proper time for revolution against the government, thereby indoctrinating them with the basic idea of revolution. This goal, however, was not sufficient in itself. The people had to have a knowledge of the social order that was to be established after the successful revolution.

Agitation and Terror were needed to "elevate the spirit of the people." Demonstrations against the government, refusal to pay taxes, demands for reforms´ and hatred of the aristocracy were part of the party´s agitation campaign. The people were also to be incited against their enemies and were to "profit" from the retaliatory actions of these same enemies.

Terror was to be used as a method of protecting the people and winning their confidence in the Hunchak program. The party aimed at terrorizing the Ottoman government, thus contributing toward lowering the prestige of that regime and working toward its complete disintegration. The government itself was not to be the only focus of terroristic tactics. The Hunchaks wanted to annihilate the most dangerous of the Armenian and Turkish individuals who were then working for the government, as well as to destroy all spies and informers. To assist them in carrying out all of these terroristic acts, the party was to organize an exclusive branch, specifically devoted to performing acts of terrorism."

 



Edited (12/30/2011) by alameda [grammar, spelling]

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