Dictators will always be dictators.

This is massacre!!!

Egypt says 525 people were killed on Wednesday when security forces stormed Islamist protest camps in Cairo after a stand-off lasting weeks.

Most of the victims died in the capital but there was violence around the country on the bloodiest day since the pro-democracy uprising two years ago.

The final toll is believed far higher as scores of bodies are not registered.

Supporters of President Mohammed Morsi, who was ousted last month, say more than 2,000 died.

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23711534

Assalamu ´Alaykum (Peace be with you) ,

I would like to start by stressing on the fact that each person is entitled to have his own views whether he is pro or against the Ikhwan, pro or against Al-Fariq al-awwal Abdel Fatah Al-Sisi. I don´t support the Ikhwan in particular though I had a special admiration for their founder Hassan Al-Banna.

In the past I didn’t support the Ikwan nor was I against them but at present, I think that their leadership made a fatal mistake which will cost them more than they know. I suspect that in the future, they’ll be “completely” (?) dismantled. We are still waiting what decisions the government will take in regards to this matter.

I realize that some people consider what happened to be a coup neglecting the fact that millions of people went on to the streets on June 30 asking for the regime to be ousted.

Anyone who watched the news and talk shows on a daily basis could foresee this coming and to be objective one at least should look at the criticisms directed towards the Ikwan and their political speech which some people saw as provocative. The term “akhwanet al-dawla” i.e. making the state “ikwanised” was not unfamiliar.

As for people who say that Ikhwan were making charity work for the sake of charity work, this is not completely accurate. It is true that since Nasser took the power in 1952 he systematically excluded the Ikhwan from the power which led to banning them in 1954. Ikhwan were arrested afterwards. I believe that they refer to this as being the first ordeal they went through. The second being in 1965-1966 when the famous Sayyed Qutb was hanged (1966). It seemed back then that this was the fatal blow and that they will never rise on their feet again.

To be accurate, the Ikhwan were considered by the ruling power since the very start to have a dubious agenda (let’s remember that Hassan Al-Banna was assassinated in 1949 most probably by the “Secret Police” back then. The previous year, i.e. 1948, the Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nuqrashi Pasha was assassinated and the Ikhwan were accused of being behind this assassination).

Anyways, the point is that building support within the grassroots compensated the fact that they weren’t able to compete in the political arena. Hence, charity work wasn’t solely done in compliance with Islamic teachings, but it had the function of serving as a basis and a means when the time comes and when opportunity arises for Ikhwan to take power, which they ultimately did.

As for the army, the way non-Egyptians look at it differs from the way Egyptians look at it (except pro-Ikhwan supporters  naturally). The Egyptians who support the army don’t think of it as a despotic power because the army is made of Egyptians (very elementary statement, I realize that, but some people often neglect it). Each Egyptian family has at least one member of it who served in the army and/or who participated in Egypt’s wars against the Hebrew State. Egyptians who have served in the army have a very positive image of it … an image which has been conveyed to their families and which resulted in the utmost respect towards it. Egyptians are very patriotic and supporting the army who has fought in 1956, 1967 and 1973 equates with patriotism.

The way Ikhwan look at the army differs from this scheme because to them it is army officials who banned them and put them in jail. It is Biqbashi (which is translated as it seems to "second lieutenant") Gamal Abdel Nasser who is responsible for the two major ordeals in their history. So what can we expect from them in regards to endorsing the army?

Finally, some people advance the argument that the Ikhwan legally won the elections, to whom I ask: is democracy only about how many votes there are in the ballot boxes? Did the Ikhwan have the intention of giving back the power after the president’s four-year term if they lost in the ballots? Where did the Ikhwan policy serve the Egyptian state and where did it serve the Ikhwan interests? Did the engagement of the Ikhwan towards other Muslim Brothers branches in the Arab world affect its state policy? What do Ikhwan think of the idea of state, of patriotism and of loyalty towards Egypt?

One more question, if the army were to be dismantled and for some reason Israel launched an attack against Egypt to take back Sinai, will the Ikhwan, who vehemently attack the army even before the recent events, be able to protect the whole country and make sure that the land remains intact?

Finally, it is very unfortunate that so many people had to die. It doesn’t matter if they are Ikhwan or not, human lives are precious and nations (“les patries” in French) are also very precious.

Furthermore, despite the fact that the Egyptian government and army have been criticized worldwide (notwithstanding the fact that they solely take into consideration the Ikhwan’s account of the events), one should not forget that some “things” in life require sacrifices. What happened is very painful. The Egyptian army is not a despotic and bloody force which goes around killing its people. It is a time of crisis and time for Egyptians to stand by each other and behind the army because there is nothing worse for a nation to be defeated than an army with a weak spirit. We will discuss responsibilities after the crisis is over … what the Ikhwan did and what has been done to them. Responsibles from both sides will be accountable and Egypt will get back on the track to catch up the lost time in terms of modernizing the country and more.

P.S. for further reading about the Ikhwan, I suggest these couple of books in English. They give a very balanced and academic account of the issue they tackle.

The Society of the Muslim Brothers by Richard Mitchell:
http://www.amazon.com/Society-Muslim-Brothers-Richard-Mitchell/dp/0195084373

The Roots of Radical Islam by Gilles Kepel:
http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Radical-Islam-Gilles-Kepel/dp/0863565093

My best regards to you all …

Thanks for this lengthy explanation.

Your writing reminded me Turkey 10 years/15 ago. Very similar ideas about the army; almost rejecting the democracy- because the democracy can bring the backwards islamists into power!!-; thinking that your army is part of your nation (very similar in Turkey because of the complusary army duty as all of men go to the army), people get killed but it was necessary for the country etc.

Similarity is amazing, so as the progress Turkey had.

Regardless the way your reply seems to be so sarcastic to my words, i won´t consider it as an offense because you are the first one (unintentionally) encouraged me to learn turkish and i appreciate people doing good things to me.

But i´ve my own point of view and it has to be respected first because you are ALL calling for democracy second i´m a member here & i didn´t offend anyone since joining, and third because i´m Egyptian and you guys are talking about my country so my role towards it (whether you are convinced or not) is to say what i see & live everyday.

Calling it massacre or not doesn´t change the fact that it is an internal affair and we don´t care of or wait for the international judgements. EGYPT IS FOR THE EGYPTIANS. Each country has its BLACK history with their protesters so now calling for human rights & democracy in Egypt is hilarious.

In each Egyptian family there is at least a member in ARMY, POLICE, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, a MODERATE MUSLIM & a MARTYR (from protesters & from police e.g Kerdasa police officers). And it seems like my family is one of them (i can give you numbers & names if you want). so please don´t underestimate with our condition.

Thanks,

HaNNo and Aisha 

I wish for the best for you and your countrymen. I don´t know what is really going on, other than a lot of people are suffering and dying. 

You Egyptians really speak English very good like a native English speaker. Maybe I am too suspicious

I am sorry but saying that "it is our own affair" or "EGYPT IS FOR THE EGYPTIANS." are not correct and very very similar to Turkey (or with that extend  to the other countries that people could NOT call ´ah there is democracy there´

This is the world; new world order; we all know everything; we all want the similar things; we know what sort of democracy and freedoms exist in the world. Not like in old days . Because of very same reason Bruce Wills have a say about trees in Taksim square and he is welcomed, the same reason EU critisizes Turkey and they are welcomed. That is the reason we are critical of what is going on in Syria. 

This is the world we are living in and we now now what is hapenning. Not like old days when we would not know anything. ( Turkish military regime, like your Mubarak regime, like any other authoritarian regimes in the world, would hide the things from its own people and from the world)   

Basically, IT WAS A BLOODY MASSACRE AND your generals and coup are no different than any other coups in the world!!

Assalamu ‘Alaykum again,

Thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy explanation by which I wasn’t replying to anyone in particular.

Personally, I like to maintain an amicable climate when it comes to discussions, hence if you see that the view which I’ve expressed is “backward”, then you are free to do so. I won’t use the “tit for tat” approach and call your views or you “backward” because it is not a mature behavior.

As per what you said about the Islamists being backward (in the eyes of their opponents naturally) and for equating the stance from Ikhwan with the stance from democracy, then neither views are correct. Perhaps some people think that Islamists are not progressivist enough nor fit to govern but I don’t think so – not exactly - because describing the situation of the Ikhwan is much more complicated for people who know Ikhwan by first hand.

Second, the notion that the army is part and parcel of a state, is integrally incorporated in the definitions of a “state” which are adopted in all major universities which provide learning in political science and political sociology majors (but if you want to maintain that it is “backward,” fell free to do so). In the eyes of a political scientist or political sociologist it will be absurd and unscientific to exclude the notion of the army (and the usage of legitimate material and symbolic force) from the definition of a state.

Finally, drawing the comparison between the Egyptian army and the Turkish army is not pertinent because there is a different history which lies behind each of them notwithstanding also that there are differences between some of the ideals they embrace.

Amicably, Aisha

Thank you alameda ...
and you are right, the whole country is suffering and no one is refusing to acknowledge that a lot of Egyptians have died since June 30. However the bone of contention is about why and how it happened. The pro-Morsi supporters maintain that the protests were peaceful and that they were “butchered” by the army. This is their view and it found access to Western media. There is however another view which say that the army and the police were in their right because according to the Egyptian law, the interior ministry has the right to end a protest after 40 days. The proponents of this view maintain that the events escalated into violence because there was armed resistance from the protesters. There are a lot of accusations against the Ikhwan which are intentionally shunned away by televisions like CNN and Al-Jazira. Unfortunately, all of the TV’s in Egypt except for “Nile International” broadcast in Arabic, this is why some privately owned TV’s have started, as of today, to broadcast with a voice-over in English so that the “outside world” becomes aware that Egyptians who don’t support Ikhwan have solid reasons to do so … and that the army acted upon the people’s will (hence it wasn’t a coup).

Quoting gokuyum

You Egyptians really speak English very good like a native English speaker. Maybe I am too suspicious

There is no need to be suspicious brother gokyum because though not all Egyptians master English but those who do .. speak it well! If others can do it than we too can do it

How do you HaNNo .. I endorse you. Baraka Allahu fika بارك الله فيك.

This is argumentative and debatable. I can decorticate your words and provide counter-argumenrs but it is futile because at the end of the day Egypt will do what Egypt wants to do no matter how much it is criticized and regardless of what you and I or anyone else for that matter have to say.

Finally, thehandsom, haNNo, alameda .. it was interesting reading and responding to your comments.

Cordially ... Aisha

I´ve said before "I´m not saying that this was the ultimate solution OR we are living the life we dreamt of", & said also "we are not falling for El-Sisy".....

Your opinions are so respected really as Bruce Wills may be more you are really important for me guys but as an opinion (which could be right or wrong) but as you said our generals are no different than others in the world so i´m just telling them "look who´s talking?!"

But since we are now a different world and we all know now what´s happening, could you tell me WHO KNOWS THE TRUTH? Which news i can trust? who killed Kerdasa police officers (one of them is my cousin´s colleague), and who killed the protesters (one of them is my other cousin´s friend)? who burnt the churches and who burnt Rabaa mosque? why our soliders are sacrificing their souls everyday in Sinai & why Rabaa protesters are ready to sacrifice theirs?...

Who knows the truth?

Well something is clear: The army is opening fire on civilians!!

The state said, 200 deaths in the first day and now they says over 600.. Today´s death toll is over 60.  Ikhwan says over 2000. That is clear enough for me.. The world and the Egyptians should stand against the tyrant. Instead of trying to glorify their ´unmeasurable/unprovable  soul secrifying´, you should just be against their killings.  Your soldiers are not fighting against Israel. (That is again the same type of rethoric in ´developing countries´: soul secrifying, protecting the borders, who is dying for the country, what if India attacks -for pakistanis-, if we dont die in the south east, Turkey willsplit, what about Greeks -for Turks. That is enough actually..No one is asking for anything extra. Just respect the others and just stop killing your own people and stop finding- or creating- excuses to remain in the power)

Bruce Willis? I would praise his support for Taksim resistance at any time. He and many like him - Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Ben Kingsley etc made Gezi resistance world wide popular. They are the people who made the slogan ´from Taksim to Rio to Tahrir´.

So for me he is a better person -at least less harmfull- than any fascist general!!