Who knows the truth?

Well something is clear: The army is opening fire on civilians!!

The state said, 200 deaths in the first day and now they says over 600.. Today´s death toll is over 60.  Ikhwan says over 2000. That is clear enough for me.. The world and the Egyptians should stand against the tyrant. Instead of trying to glorify their ´unmeasurable/unprovable  soul secrifying´, you should just be against their killings.  Your soldiers are not fighting against Israel. (That is again the same type of rethoric in ´developing countries´: soul secrifying, protecting the borders, who is dying for the country, what if India attacks -for pakistanis-, if we dont die in the south east, Turkey willsplit, what about Greeks -for Turks. That is enough actually..No one is asking for anything extra. Just respect the others and just stop killing your own people and stop finding- or creating- excuses to remain in the power)

Bruce Willis? I would praise his support for Taksim resistance at any time. He and many like him - Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Ben Kingsley etc made Gezi resistance world wide popular. They are the people who made the slogan ´from Taksim to Rio to Tahrir´.

So for me he is a better person -at least less harmfull- than any fascist general!!

Till this moment army is not in the image it´s only the police

And you believe "only" the Ikhwan´s statements because.....

We already stood against tyrants... "TWICE" and ready for more... but we were blamed in the second time, aren´t we? Do you think that i don´t care of having a real "Islamic Regime" in Egypt? I really do but Ikhwan, Salafists, Hazem Abu Ismail...noooo not those people

Again our soliders are dying everyday in Sinai specially in Al-Areesh protecting our territory & our borders who said they are not?! Against Israel or other terrorists doesn´t change the fact that they are to be praised. And Israel!!!... please, we fought against them and paid for that enormously high costs. And by the way El-Sadat which happens to be an "army general" is the one who wrote our history.

I respect the others and i don´t want any Egyptian to be killed, its against my religion & Muhammad (PBUH) teachings actually for muslim to kill another, please read my words well i said i have allll types now in my family one was working with his colleague when the last & others got SLAUGHTERED by "civilians" and hanged up NAKED in Kerdasa Police Station...and another one is a physician in Rabaa seing dead demonstration´s mates falling one after another. I´m not defending or giving excuses to any of them it´s just to be fair i´ve to mention that both are victims. But you see it one way fight!!!

Bruce Wills?!!! why are you so aggressive?!! i didn´t say anything bad i said your opinion means alot to me even more than Bruce Wills... it´s a compliment

I just believe that... NOT ALL PROTESTERS HAVE RIGHT... NOT ALL GENERALS ARE TYRANTS... NOT ALL DEAD PEOPLE ARE MARTYRS... NOT ALL THOSE SHOWING SUPPORT REALLY CARE ABOUT EGYPT... nothing is for granted as I believe

Ya Allah we need you, save Egypt...say ameen

Egyptian security forces have surrounded a mosque in the capital, Cairo, amid a stand-off with barricaded Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

Dozens remain, refusing to believe the authorities´ pledge of a safe exit.

The tense stand-off follows a day of bloody clashes on Friday in which more than 80 people died and 1,000 Brotherhood supporters were arrested.

The group has called for daily protests after a crackdown on their camps in Cairo on Wednesday left hundreds dead.
..
Speaking to Al Jazeera by phone from inside the mosque, Omaima Halawa said there were about 700 people, including women and children, inside and that they feared leaving the mosque because "there were thugs outside with the security forces, and that ... the security forces were working with the thugs".

..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23736600

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381742936960875.html

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What is next? Erase the mosque with tanks?

Seeing these viewpoints is interesting. Since someone mentioned that you should "accept what democracy brings.." (something along the lines of that), yes I agree and that is why I believe that if there are millions of Egyptians asking for Morsi to step down, it should be done and it has. However, now you have the horrific turmoil brewing all over Egypt. What a sad sight. The retaliation is disgusting! For Morsi´s supporters, if they were actually democratic, they would not be engaging in violent crimes against their opposition. This only proves how undemocratic they are. The Brotherhood wanted the so called "democracy" and therefore they should stop fighting. So many people have taken to the streets, showing their opposition towards them yet, the Brotherhood continue to fight...but in violence. Their actions speak much louder than their words. 

Really??????  woooow. That´s would Be Great Job..  !! !!

how did u think about this????

   ..  !!

I think you misunderstood about what democracy is. (however, you have some good points which people might think further) . First of all the army intervention is not the democracy. It is a blatantly backwards, blatantly undemocratic move and it always but always ends up with screwing up the democracy and stopping countries for many years in the path to a real democracy. That is what happened in Turkey with 3 coups, what happened in Spain, what happened in Greece etc. The second thing is that I could not see and armed resistance so far from Brotherhood. I think there is serious provocation by the army against the people who feel cheeted by army. The state should not respond to the protestors who are throwing stones with live bullets.(in Turkey, the police responds with tear gas to the protestors and we accuse Erdogan being a fascist!!)

That is why  the army  is  wrong and that is why the army is being accused with fascism.

(anyway the interesting point I was talking about is that, if the democracy is done via elections, but what happens if 1 million protesters protest against the goverment in the half way or elections are far away? or what if the goverments suporters have more than 1 million -as it is in Egytp- supporters? The goverment should resign? what about the others? or what if the goverments supporters dont come to the streets but vote for the same party again in the elections? -these things happened in Turkey for example)

Hi,

A newbie here. I agree with your thoughts. Though they made me look at the picture in a broader way, hence this may be a bit OFF TOPIC. Sorry about that.

Just a couple of thoughts on Egypt: true, democracy is done via elections. But can we expect - regardless what the outcome of the election was - that people handle the result democratically in a country, where generations grown up without truly practicing democracy? I doubt that. It is deeply saddening to see that one kills the other because of political reasons. These killings cannot be justified. Saddening and horrible to see the army intervening.

Broadly speaking, whoever wins an election, steers the wheel and has its way with respect of the minority. I believe, in a healthy democracy millions of protesters should be a clear message to any government, that tells that someting goes wrong and some actions must be taken… or there is a chance for calling for early elections as well, in certain situations.  Well... provided that this is a healthy democracy where the minority can have their say and they are heard, and at the same time the government are able to negotiate with the opposition. Perhaps what has happened in Brazil recently, might be a good example of that. (Obvioulsy it is not the case in Egypt)

However when there are millions of protesters on the streets for days/weeks and they are not heard at all, well, that’s a different story. Why is that I wonder? I suspect there are some countries where the „with the respect of the minority” part seems to be left out. There are a couple of countries where the government  try to concentrate powers and turn the result of the democratic elections into something where the winner takes all. Lets say in Russia for example, you can see how the opposition got intimidated, and jailed. Or how the media got silenced. This is a new thing in a couple of so-called democratic countries, and I truly hope that it is not a new pattern of governance. I doubt that such a government would resign. Why would they do? They are in full power. My fear is that in such circumstances there is very little chance for the opposition to take actions, and you might be right, with no other alternatives, lots of people may re-elect the government in power. Though… who knows? Maybe Lincoln was right: „You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

I understand very well what democracy is, but in the case of Egypt there just too many interrelated issues to weigh democracy next to them. Yes in the beginning, a democratic vote was taken to put Morsi into office. However now the majority of Egyptians (as seen by the MILLIONS of demonstrators) want him out, and although he is out, his supports continue to retaliate by attacking people against Morsi. This is being witnessed day to day. Churches being burned down, people kidnapped, I mean it is completely out of control. I understand your point that the army is undemocratic, HOWEVER, (and I know this is going to be completely ironic) if the majority of Egyptians call for Al-Sisi to step in and approve of his tactics to government, how is that then oppressing Egyptians? They chose this government right? There is always going to be people with and against a government and at this point it seems as though most Egyptians want a central government in place wherein the general citizens´ safety and stability is secured. I think no matter what your philosophy in life is, the average human being seeks their physiological needs before anything else. Yes it is absolutely as important as having a just government, however in some cases fairness can differ when weighed before your physical safety. Rick Riordan once said:

“Fairness does not mean everyone gets the same. Fairness means everyone gets what they need”

I also think both sides are feeling threatened by one another and are therefore protecting themselves. It also depends on who is instigating this violence. IF it´s the army, then Egyptians have a complete right to fight back! However, if it´s the Brotherhood, then Egyptians have a complete right to protection and deserve to be protected. I firmly believe that you have to be there to truly witness which side is the oppressed, however one can always make an educated guess/infer. I definitely agree with some of your points. 

At least 24 Egyptian policemen have been killed in an attack by suspected militants in the Sinai peninsula.

The attack on the police convoy, close to the town of Rafah on the Gaza border, was one of the deadliest on security forces in several years.

...
So far, the tourist resort of Sharm El Sheikh [at the southern tip of the Sinai] has remained immune to the post-Arab Spring violence. It is too early to tell if this attack is in direct response to events in Cairo and other mainland Egyptian cities and there was no immediate claim of responsibility.

And separately, a lawyer for Hosni Mubarak has said he hopes the former leader could be released from prison within the next two days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23751954

..

Anti-coup marchers are back on the streets of Egypt amid calls for an international probe into the deaths of 36 protesters while in police custody.
..
The protests come hours after the Anti-Coup Alliance, which includes the Muslim Brotherhood, demanded a formal investigation into the deaths of 37 men being transported in a police van.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381910424530930.html

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I think the army of Egypt is taking Egypt to a civil war!! Such as shame after an amazing start of the Arab Spring which gave many other countries such a tremendous hope.

Thanks for the input.

But can we expect - regardless what the outcome of the election was - that people handle the result democratically in a country, where generations grown up without truly practicing

democracy?

Do we have any alternative ways or does it mean that we dont accept the election results because they dont have experience in democracy? Or what do you think it will happen if Egypt goes to elections today? what if Brotherhood comes back? (possibly they will) will they keep staging the coup to keep them out of power?

I believe, in a healthy democracy millions of protesters should be a clear message to any government, that tells that someting goes wrong and some actions must be taken…

Do you remember Turkish protests in 2007 (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumhuriyet_Mitingleri). There were millions in those meetings.. But they never succeeded in elections and in the elections AKP came back again. We know how powerful  Gezi protests were. But what do you think it would happen if there were elections today in Turkey? And more over what would happen if the army makes plans at the back ground to stage these protests? (in 2007, Cumhuriyet Mitingleri were all arranged by Turkish Army, they even killed a member from Turkish counsil of State -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Council_of_State_shooting- to enrage  anti islamists)

ps. I really appreciate your inputs. Please do more

Nobel Prize winner Turkish author Orhan Pamuk has accused western countries for betraying their own values, regarding the latest developments in Egypt.

..
Pamuk said "He (al-Sisi) told the world that he would stage a military coup before the army took over. The whole world, especially  the west turned their heads and did not want to hear anything’’, adding that now, not only the US government and the EU but also western countries behave as they have no responsibility by saying the army was killing people.
Suggesting that the western effect might have diminished over Arab countries following the Arab Spring, Orhan Pamuk also said that the western world could simply have said a military coup could not be a tool for political conflict.
Pamuk also underlined that significant political bodies of the west could not call what happened in Egypt a “military coup” and western values that have ideals such as democracy, human rights and etc. either exist or they do not exist because political or economic calculations are gave in.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=115436

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A Turkish intellect we will be proud of many generations!