http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137319828176718.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23173794

-----------------------

I am not sure about this actually..

The army should not  have  intervened. It will be curious to see how the west is going to respond.

BBC thinks that : What appears to be a military coup in Egypt puts the Obama administration in an awkward position.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23167490

Coup is not a solution. It looks like it but it is not. It only creates victims.

I am very sad and bitter about this. The Egyptians did vote for this man. For the first time ever. They organized a campaign, they queued to the polls. The Muslim Brotherhood won it because they had the history, they had the skills and contacts, they were organized. Even if they had been banned from politics for decades they still always acted as a positive force in the society. For instance, when the corrupted administration did not give people what they need the Brotherhood often did.

If you say you support democracy you should also accept what it brings.

There is no greater power in Egypt than the army. They get the U.S. dollars, they control 40 per cent of businesses. They support Tamarod for their own reasons. During Mursi Egypt has received support from IMF which demands the country to possess of its economical structures and this was written to the new constitution. No one knows the budget of the army and the generals want it that way.

There is no greater power in Egypt than the army and there will never be. The demonstrators made this possible. Hosni must be so pleased to see this day. 

Go to Ramses Square and look around: things could not be very much worse in the overcrowded city. It is an emergency and a human disaster. Instead of organizing parties in the Tahrir with flags and fireworks  people should go and do their work better. Each one of them.

May Allah protect Egypt.

If you say you support democracy you should also accept what it brings.

Democracy is not merely a collection of ballot boxes.

Yes those other things is exactly what Muslim Brotherhood represented in Egypt because they had no voice in the political arena. And that is why they won the first free elections. It was the natural course of events.

I agree with what you are saying 100%. Anybody who thinks democrasy is not only elections should also resist against coups. I think it is one of those times people and countries are going to reflect what they think of democracy.

So far EU said : The European Union has called for a rapid return to democracy in Egypt.

Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates welcome the coup.

USA is short of calling this as a coup..

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201373223029610370.html

For good measure, Article 35 of the relevant Military Code must be cancelled.

Did nobody tell that to Morsi ?

No Article 35, no military coup ! As simple as that......

This would have guaranteed the desired result, no?

Does anyone know if Morsi had plans to demolish pyramids and build Shopping Malls, in their places ?

Abla you seem to know alot about Muslim Brothers.(Ikhwan?) Why dont you give us some info about them? 

What I have is more like an impression and a feeling that Ikhwan has been unjustly demonized in the Western media. This serves both the anti-Islamic interests of the West (look, they are having a difficulty in calling the coup a coup) and the old autocratic rulers of the Middle East. In Egypt, Ikhwan traditionally represents democracy on the grass-root level. It has given a voice to millions of oppressed people. Among ordinary street men Ikhwan was mainly a charity organization which has established hospitals and social welfare centers as well as helped people to deal with the corrupted authorities in order to get their rights. All this began long before they had any chance to act as an official political force.

Muslim Brotherhood had an orphanage in the same house where I used to live in Cairo. To take a child from the street and to give him a home and education is one of the biggest good deeds I can imagine. I have also written about my experience of the Egyptian believers in another thread here:

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_53127, post 10

The support of the Ikhwan has not come from out of nowhere. They did not distribute rice and corn oil to the poor in the streets just in order just to win the election  -  they had been doing the same for 80 years. Ikhwan was a forbidden political party in Mubarak’s Egypt and its members suffered harsh treatment by the despotic police force. At times the members were arrested in big numbers. Ikhwan were represented in politics and the judicial system but officially only as individuals.

I am not sure if it is the ideal situation that a religious party rules any country. Probably not. Mohamed Mursi at least was not able or did not want to unite the whole people. Instead, like your Erdogan he was content with the support of his own voters which is not stateman-like behaviour. This is when the army saw its chance. Don’t tell me Abdelfatah al-Sisi is any more interested in democracy or human rights. What interests the army is the army.

What we can’t understand is what a deeply religious country Egypt still is. It is impossible to think of the future of Egypt without a strong influence of the Muslim Brotherhood which in its political agenda is not as strict or scary as militant Islamists. In Egypt, until today the strongest weapon against ignorance, corruption and abuse is religion whether we like it or not. Maybe the influence of Ikhwan will weaken in the future as societies modernise and global influence reaches the slums and outlying villages of the Nile valley but until then it is very annoying that the army tells who is admissible to be chosen the leader of Egypt and who is not.

Abla

Thank you.. It is a great help to understand the situation for us.

I like that !

I was right on Abla would be able to give some info about muslim brothers. If you knew anything about them, I would have asked you. But you dont. So thanks to Abla again for the valuable information.

It does not amaze me that abla knows about Muslim Brothers. I think she works for them...

That is what I liked about your question..

Though I doubt it, but she might very well do. I would find it interesting if she did . It is better  than army boot licking and uniform  fetishism. 

However, it does not change anything from the knowledge point of view. 

To a sincere student of democracy, there is no difference between licking & kissing army boots or licking & kissing fanatically religious asses.

If anyone is trying to tell me that one is better than the other, he/she obviously has no interest in democracy.

Read my books, if you need to learn what exactly one should lick & kiss in life.

Master Tao

Anybody who thinks supporting people´s freedom of religion is the same as licking the armyboots can only have nirvana in their dreams.

 Licking of something is  NOT a farz as far as  the democracy is concerned. Even not a sunnet. Just a old habit for some

If you are trying to tell us that Egyptians have no freedom of religion anymore, now that Morsi is ousted, you certainly deserve to kiss a lot of asses.

What did Morsi care about religious freedom of non moslems or ateists in Egypt, anyway?

If you consider being in favour of democracy MUST have something to do with licking either army boots or someones asses, your tongue will wear out.

Army boot lickers idea of democracy is so attached to the licking that the think  "anybody who supports of democracy got to do with some sort of licking". 

That was what was wrong in the begining : The army interventions can not be in the democracy. (That is why what we had years ago in Turkey was not a democracy. It was just army and bunch of army boot lickers)

Keep the crap short.

Do you think Morsi was the last Egyptian hope for religious freedom for all, or not ? 

Your rebellious General probably thinks he is a better Moslem than Morsi.

Religious fanatisizm and army coups are not alternatives to achieve democracy.  Both only produce more asses for people to kiss.

You can not be a democrat, if you must chose one, or the other.

He he

Yes cut the crap.

I have never been on generals side and that will never happen.

You can not be a democrat, if you must chose one, or the other.

Yes that is what I was always telling YOU. It took me years to teach you.

You are dumb...

If you are on Mursi´s side, you are also on the General´s side.....They are both anti-Democrats, see ?

Congratulations !

people tend to produce fantasies about the news that they dont know the details of

Everybody says this and I became curious. Do you have any details about the violations? This is not a sarcastic question, I noticed I know very little myself.

Let´s discuss Copts. They like it when they are discussed and seen as victims. It belongs to the story they want to be a part of. They are being paid for it. I read this article:

                   http://www.merip.org/mer/mer267/copts-under-mursi

It clearly describes that Christians have felt more threatened during Mursi era and the number of sectarian attacks has increased. The Copts were not pleased with the way Mursi reacted to these events. True. A couple of things should be taken into account, though:

1. The fall of Mubarak definitely caused security problems. Outlaw gangs took control of the streets in many suburbs. Every one regardless of religion felt a little bit less confident.

2. Those extremist groups of Muslims and Copts who were silenced with cold iron before suddenly got their voice heard and it created tension between groups of people.

Maybe it was not intentional. The Freedom and Justice Party simply could have had a bad governance which is not very surprising for a quasi-underground opposition movement who overnight finds itself in state power.

What people fail to remember during these dramatic changes is that Muslims and Copts always lived side by side in Egypt, tolerated each other and found their ways. And they will probably continue to do so. The Egyptians as an ancient nation are very civilized in these things and actually very hard to provocate.

I would like to know if there was something in the new constitution which could have irritated the Copts. (Haha I bet it is about money.) I will not ask you AlphaF. I will ask my son. ♥

Clashes erupt near Cairo´s Tahrir Square
Supporters and opponents of ousted President Morsi engage in running street battles on capital´s 6th October Bridge.

...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/201375183931989733.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23201770

----------

No coup is a solution to any situation nor the army can bring the democracy.

It is not about supporting Mursi or supporting not-Mursi. You miss the point sir.

it is not a religious matter there. we turks have almost no information about egypt and we imagine that country as ours.

"Analysts have predicted the Egyptian military control anything from 15 per cent to 40 per cent of the economy." Egypt military´s economic empire

I should probably be more familiar with Egyptian politics by now, but I admit, I am somewhat lacking.  However, my understanding of human behavior is usually right on target.  In matters of war and/or political/religious conflict,  it is the innocent who suffer most and in most parts of the world, this means women and children.  I can only helplessly pray for peace.  

Müslüman Kardeşler’in kurucusunun oğlu Milliyet’e konuştu:

İmam Hasan el Benna, 1928’de Müslüman Kardeşler’i kuranlardan biriydi. 1949’da Kahire’de bir suikastla öldürüldü.

Oğlu Seyfülislam el Benna, Müslüman Kardeşler içinde, babasından devraldığı itibarı sürdüren bir isim...

‘Ordu bölünebilir’

Biz gittiğimizde TV’de Mursi yandaşlarının gösterisi vardı. “Allahu ekber“ sloganlarına, helikopterlerin patırtısı eşlik ediyordu. Ve kürsüdeki konuşmacı, helikoptere dönerek, “Kudretli asker, bizi korkutamazsın, bize kurşun sıkma” diye bağırıyordu.
Konuşmayı dikkatle dinleyen Seyfülislam el Benna, bu bölümü bana tercüme ettikten sonra, “Bu çok önemli” dedi.
“Çünkü ordu içinden aldığım haberlere göre, askerin bir kısmı, darbeyi onaylamıyormuş. Emirlere uymuyorlarmış. Bu, orduda bir bölünmeye yol açabilir.”

Orada da ‘Faiz Lobisi’ mi?

Sonra en baştan anlatmaya başladı:
“Bu ülkeyi 60 yıl, askerler yönetti. 2011 devrimi ile ilk kez rejimi sandıkla değiştirdik ve meşru bir cumhurbaşkanı seçtik. Bu, demokrasi yolunda büyük bir adımdı.”
“Peki neden 1 yılda bu noktaya gelindi” diye soruyorum. El Benna, Müslüman Kardeşler’in iktidarda hata yaptığını kabul etmiyor, bütün sorumluluğu eski rejimin artıklarına yüklüyor:
“Rejim devrildi, ama kadroları kaldı. Onlar da imtiyazlarını korumak istediler. Eski suçlarının ortaya çıkmasından korktular. Yeni rejime itaat etmediler. Bürokrasi, ordu, polis, büyük sermaye, Ulusal Demokratik Parti ve dış ülkeler, Mursi başarısız olsun diye karşıtlarını desteklediler. Müslüman Kardeşler başarırsa, kendi tahtlarının da tehlikeye gireceğini düşünen Suudi Arabistan, Kuveyt gibi ülkeler de bunlara parasal katkı verdi. Polis, ‘Baltacılar’ dediğimiz haydutları hapisten salıverip insanlara saldırttı, evleri yağmalattı, kiliseleri bombalattı. Büyük bir güvenlik sorunu yaratıldı. Ve ordu sadece seyretti.”
Somut kanıtı, sohbeti dinleyen Berat el Benna veriyor:
“Bakın darbe olduğundan beri ne elektrik kesintisi kaldı, ne de benzin kuyruğu...”

Bahar değil Arap taarruzu

“- Bundan sonra ne olur?”
“- Ordu, barışçıl gösterilere silahla müdahale ederse bir iç savaş tehlikesi doğabilir.”
“- Ya Arap baharı?”
“- O tabiri sevmiyorum. Buna ‘Arapların büyük taarruzu’ diyelim. Demokrasi Mısır’da yenilirse tüm Arap dünyasında, Libya’da, Tunus’ta, Sudan’da da başarısızlığa uğrar. O yüzden, burada yaşananlar sadece Mısır için değil, dünya için önemli...” 
“- Nasıl mücadele edeceksiniz?”
“-Yeniden demokrasiye dönmek, Mursi’yi yeniden cumhurbaşkanlığına getirmek ve seçime gitmek için darbeye karşı mücadele edeceğiz. Ama şiddetle değil, diyalogla, uzlaşma arayarak mücadele

Askerle burun buruna

Önceki gün bir ölüme tanıklık ettiğimiz Cumhurbaşkanlığı Muhafız Alayı’nın önü, dün Kahire’nin en gergin mekanıydı.  Göstericinin öldüğü yerde cenazeleri karşılamak üzere onbinler toplandı.  Önceki gün askerin yaklaştırmadığı tel örgüye kadar yaklaştılar. Silahlı askerlerle burun buruna gelip ellerindeki Mursi posterlerini gösterdiler.
Konuşmalar yapıldı, “Defol Sisi“ sloganları atıldı, akşam kalabalık arttıkça öfke de kabardıkça kabardı.  Ancak asker -en azından gün batımına dek- önceki güne göre daha temkinli ve sakindi. Darbeden bu yana sürekli taciz uçuşları yapan helikopterler havada görülmedi. Şimdilik halkla askeri, sadece ince bir tel örgü ayırıyor.  Ve pek de uzun süre dayanacak gibi görünmüyor.

‘Bize bir Erdoğan lazım’

İtiraf edelim ki, bizim basın kartı, Mısır’da Türkiye’den fazla işimize yaradı. Müslüman Kardeşler cephesinde her engeli aşabilmemizi, başı kasklı, eli sopalı sivil milisler arasından rahatça geçebilmemizi, her girdiğimiz ortamda saygı görmemizi Erdoğan‘a borçluyuz.
Türkiye’nin Mursi’yi sahiplenmesi, karşı cephede tepki yaratsa da İhvan cephesini sevindirdi. Cuma vaazında bile şükranla dile getirildi bu tavır...
Seyfülislam el Benna da aynı kanıda:
“Erdoğan’ın Mısır’da iyi bir ismi var. Mısır halkı onu çok seviyor. Öyle ki halk arasında ‘Bize bir Erdoğan lazım’ deyişi yerleşti. Türkiye’nin Mısır’daki darbeye verdiği tepki, demokrasiye destektir aslında... Her ülkenin vermesi gereken tepkidir. Bu sancılı süreçte de eminim Türkiye, Mısır’dan siyasal ve politik desteğini esirgemeyecektir.”

http://gundem.milliyet.com.tr/-ordu-bolunebilir-/gundem/ydetay/1733278/default.htm

Call it a coup, an intervention, a revolution ...whatever !

What ever it is that the army did, it was not directed to saving democracy ! The goal was  to stop bloodshed and an imminent extermination of Egypt.

There was no democracy to save in Egypt anyway. Millions were gathered in two rival squares of Cairo, gearing up to butcher each other, in the name of democracy, stupidly provoked and lead by religious fanatics or incompetent politicians. That can hardly be called democracy, even if one of the confornting sides have a slight majority in ballot boxex.

Army tried to stop a bloody confrontation; warned politicians to come to their senses and stop the bloodshed. When they did not respond intelligently, the Army stopped this comedy they think is democracy. At this moment, there seems to be no large scale bloodshed.

The only hope for the idiotic fanatics or incompetent politicians now is a separation between the Army ranks itself...each part favoring one or the other of the fighting sides, so that a full scale massacre can freely follow.

Perhaps, that is God´s will....extermination of Egypt !

Yoksul dev
Önce nasıl bir ülkeden söz ettiğimize bakalım:
90 milyonluk nüfusun yüzde 40’ı okuma yazma bilmiyor.
İnsanların yüzde 7’si günlük 1 doların altında, yüzde 35’i 2 doların altında bir gelirle yaşıyor.
İşsizlik oranı yüzde 13...
Büyüme yüzde 2’nin altında...
Çıkardığı petrol ve gaz kendi ihtiyacını zor karşılıyor.
Devlet yıllardır, her gün herkese üç öğün ekmeği bedavaya yakın fiyatla veriyor. Bu yüzden Mısır, dünyanın en büyük hububat ithalatçılarından biri... Dışa bağımlı...
İşte ülke bu haldeyken ve 60 yıldır diktatörlükle yönetilirken, değişim isteyen dış dinamikle iç dinamik kesişti.

Dış dinamik
Soğuk Savaş’ta ABD’nin stratejisi, Sovyetler’i bir yeşil kuşakla kuşatarak komünizmi çökertmekti. Bu amaçla Afganistan’da mücahitleri besledi. El Kaide’yi yetiştirdi.
Sovyetler çökünce, bölgede radikal İslam ayakta kaldı.
ABD, bu kez onun üstüne işgalle, postalla, tankla yürüdü; ama her müdahale, İslam’ın direniş gücünü ve itibarını büyüttü.
Sonuçta Batı’da İslamofobi, İslam dünyasında Batı karşıtlığı ile dünya gerildi. Dinler çatışması, Batı’nın güvenliğine ve küresel ekonomiye zarar vermeye başladı.
ABD, Ortadoğu’da siyasal İslam’a karşı diktatörleri beslemenin dünyanın yarısını kendisine düşman hale getirdiğini gördü ve yeni bir strateji geliştirmek zorunda kaldı.
Yıllarca ezmeye çalıştıkça yeraltında güçlenmesine yol açtığı radikallere engel çıkarmaktan vazgeçti. Seçimle iktidara gelirlerse esneyip yumuşayacaklarını, Batı’yla uzlaşacaklarını, efsane olmaktan çıkacaklarını umdu.
Bu yeni stratejinin bir başarı hikâyesine ihtiyacı vardı:
O da Mısır’dı.
Mısır, Ortadoğu’nun kilit taşıydı. Dünya deniz ticaretinin yüzde 8’i Süveyş’ten geçtiği için hayati önemdeydi. Müslüman dünyadaki ağırlığı ve İsrail meselesi nedeniyle de benzersizdi.
Kahire’de kansız bir dönüşüm başarılır ve kaynayan İslam ılıtılırsa tüm bölgeye örnek olurdu.

İç dinamik
Mübarek rejimi zaten içeriden çürümüştü, çöküşe gidiyordu.
Kahire’nin “müesses nizam“ını oluşturan askeri ve sivil bürokrasi, Mübarek‘le Mısır’ı 21. yüzyılda birinci ligde tutamayacağını gördü.
Arap Baharı’nın rüzgârını doğru yorumladı.
Mısır Ordusu, Libya’da, Tunus’taki gibi kum torbasına dönüşmemek için, halkın değişim talebiyle çatışmamayı tercih etti. Esnek bir strateji geliştirdi.
Ve kendini kurtarmak için Mübarek‘i gözden çıkardı.
Saray’ın önündeki 60 yıllık barikatı kaldırıp öfkeli halkın önünü açtı. Ve Firavun, “ayaklanma“ ile devrildi.
Şimdi “Darbe oldu“ diye feryat edenler o zaman bunu “Devrim“ diye kayda geçti.
Oysa aynı ordu, sırası geldiğinde, aynı meydanı, bu kez “karşı devrim“e açacaktı.

http://gundem.milliyet.com.tr/misir-da-ne-oldu-/gundem/ydetay/1733641/default.htm

The whole process will take no more than 210 days, according to the decree, meaning elections will be by February at the latest.

A senior Muslim Brotherhood official denounced the decree. "A constitutional decree by a man appointed by putchists... brings the country back to square one," said Essam al-Erian in a Facebook posting.

The Brotherhood has called for nationwide protests to take place a day after a deadly shooting at the site of a sit-in by its supporters in Cairo left at least 51 dead and hundreds injured.

...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137951346463143.html 

Brotherhood rejects Mansour poll decree..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23237852

--------------

I think, the west seems reluctant to use harsh words against the military and that is a huge mistake i believe.  And some people have been  arguing about ´the right coup vs wrong coup´ 

The armies, the coups have never been a solution. We know it from our own history. #

I hope this intervention does  NOTcause more bloodshed in Egypt..

The whole process will take no more than 210 days, according to the decree, meaning elections will be by February at the latest.

Whether it is 210 or 20010 days to elections, not much will change in Egypt if today´s religious fanatics on one side and incompetent politicians on the other, remain alive.

What Army should do for Egypt´s best interest is to unload equal but considerable amounts of weapons on both squares, then stand aside and let these buggers take care of each other.

Piece of cake, no ?

So heartless.

Do you want the Army to stand in between, or what?

+1

Last night I was having a tel conv with someone. I was telling that what a pity Egypt is about to descent into an internal war, the answer was very similar : he said ´the army is killing religious fanatics´  

I think some people are really pleased to see that the democracy is not working in Egypt. I think the very same people  kept saying in the past that ´Arabs are backwards people who dont understand what  democracy means´.

They were simply racist and  backwards.. 

´Arabs are backwards people who dont understand what  democracy means´.

None of the members here would ever say that.

We all know democracy was started by Arabs at the beginning of history.  

Today, many Arabic countries like Saudi Arabıa, Jordan, Qatar, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain etc are pillars of world Democracy. All rulers in those countries are good democratic chaps. They all like democracy so much, they eat it for breakfast every morning.

The only failure seems to be in Egypt. Pls wait until they find a democratic PHAROH for themselves...all will then be OK.

Of course they dont. They never did. They will never say. 

I was just saying just incase if you spot one of those  people

Tariq Ramadan from the University of Oxford analyses the situation in Egypt in this article. He calls the coup a media-military operation of the highest order. Among other things he says

1) the army did not return to politics because it never left in the first place

2) the decision to overthrow Mohamed Mursi was made long before June 30th

3) blackouts, shortage of gasoline and natural gas came to an abrupt end after the fall of the President

4) Abdul Fatal al-Sisi maintained close connections to Israel even while Mursi refused contact with them

5) both Muslim Brotherhood and the President were surprisingly simple-minded and suffered from lack of experience; they could not believe the U.S. would accept such a thing as a coup d´état in Egypt

6) the USA and the EU have no quarrel with the political Islam and the salafi literalists of the Gulf states and their denial of democracy

7) the silence of the Western governments tells us all we need to know: there was no Arab spring.

http://www.tariqramadan.com/spip.php?article12927&lang=fr

It is all about keeping up appearances. And we people are so naive.

It´s all very depressing, really. I am reminded "Where have all the flowers gone....

Tariq Ramadan from the University of Oxford analyses the situation in Egypt in this article. He calls the coup a media-military operation of the highest order. Among other things he says.

I do not know what else Mr Ramadan of Oxford says in his analysis, but he simply keeps quiet about one important point.

Just before Al Sisi ordered unrestive Egyptians to cool it, millions had congregated in two major Squares of Cairo, getting ready to massacre each other.

No decent social scientist would attempt to adress the Egyptian issue, overlooking this major point. Mr Ramadan has no right to speak like an İkhvan employee, at this critical point in Egypt history.

How come you don´t know and I gave you the link? And how come you comment and you don´t know? If I were you I would not say I don´t know but I would at least act as if I knew.

These items reminds  me the way Turkish army would plan the things in advance.

I am sure both-most of the  armies in  the Middle East work in a similar mind: Contribute the chaos to worsen the situation then stage a coup and say ´see democracy is not working; we had to intervene´.

In the end, all coups have fascist nature and they dont help anything as far as democracy is concerned. They only postpone the democracy and make the country waste years.

That is the difference between us....

 +1  

I will stop trashing you...I think you began enjoying it !

I think there is a Turkish saying ´ ac tavuk kendini dari ambarinda gorurmus´

Stop trying to settle your old defeats here and try to enjoy it.. ok?  

Sudden Improvements in Egypt Suggest a Campaign to Undermine Morsi
..
 Not only did police officers seem to disappear, but the state agencies responsible for providing electricity and ensuring gas supplies failed so fundamentally that gas lines and rolling blackouts fed widespread anger and frustration.

“This was preparing for the coup,”

But it is the police returning to the streets that offers the most blatant sign that the institutions once loyal to Mr. Mubarak held back while Mr. Morsi was in power.

..

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/middleeast/improvements-in-egypt-suggest-a-campaign-that-undermined-morsi.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&ref=world

----------------

I think Egypt ancient fascist regime is fighting back.

The events are very similar to the events in Turkey we saw in the past: State institutions refuse to provide the services to prepare the coup; creating a sense of lack of security, undermining the fuel supply, undermining the quality of life etc. 

Did you know that the Egyptians are the absolute kings of the film industry and entertainment in the Arab world? An Arab actor or singer is not successful unless he/she is successful in Egypt.

They know how a story is told. They have the eye for a good story. This was the final scene of this story:

Egypt army ´restoring democracy´, says John Kerry

US Secretary of State John Kerry has said Egypt´s military was "restoring democracy" when it ousted elected President Mohammed Morsi last month.

Mr Kerry said the removal was at the request of "millions and millions of people".

..

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23543744 

===================

I think, USA has been proved one more time that as long as the new government is not threatening the USA interests, they will support anything, including the coups.

That was what happened in 1980 in Turkey and the democracy was  held back for decades!!

Examples of the privileges the Egyptian army profited from during Hosni Mubarak:

1. The budget of the army is not discussed in the parliament.

2. Army officers cannot be indicted in civil courts even after retirement.

3. The army always has a word to say about land use.

4. The ministry of military production controls factories where conscripts manufacture everything from diesel heaters to pasta.

5. A great deal of the governors and managers of state-owned companies are former military officers. That was the way Mubarak kept the soldiers happy. It was kind of a retirement program. (Did you hear them crying President Mursi is favoring his own men in nominations...?)

In every revolution part of the power always tends to stay in the same hands.

Pleeeease don´t call our revolution a coup as for granted... simply with all my respect to all of you none of you is Egyptian & none of you knows Egypt as we do .

Ikhwan are not the angels saving the Islam from vanishing in Egypt that is what they are fooling the ignorants with (and they are millions), Egyptians were always religious and will always be, El-Azhar is in Egypt also we have plenty of "Duahs" e.g Amr Khaled, Moez Masoud, Mostafa Hosny, Mahmoud El-Masry, Omar Abdel Kafy.....Mosques are crowded in Friday prayers, Ramadan taraweeh, Bayram prayers.....the dream of most of the Egyptians is to go for Hajj in Mecca & Madina.....Ikhwan doesn´t represent Islam they represent their Hasan Al-Banna´s & Sayed Qotb´s teachings. And even if they do charity, that doesn´t make them qualified as politicians.

On the contrary just calling themselves Muslim Brotherhood is BLAMED because any failure from their side will be a failure to the religion itself thats why we just call them Ikhwan (brotherhood). Where is the "100 DAYS PROGRAM" they were alleging. They came for REVENGE from Mubarak & his folks and to POSSESS every authority.

Morsy won the presidential elections not only by his supporters´ votes to call now for securing the legitimacy, but millions "squeezed lemon on themselves" - as our proverb say in case of doing something less disgusting than the other - just because the opponent candidate was Ahmed Shafiq the former Minister in Mubarak´s regime "flool" as we call them.

And others are those living under the poverty line - thanks to Mubarak - who have been fooled with the "oil & sugar" and that the Ikhwan will bring prosperity to Egypt. I don´t blame those people their way of living is unbearable for animals you can´t imagine guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxOHpI6CH70

It is not a video i´m proud of but you had to see how millions of the Egyptians live and in the same time asked to vote for critical political issues like the presidential elections, the constitution, the parliament elections...BY THE WAY this is not in the country side it is in the capital Cairo in a very sophisticated district called Mohandessein.

My brother is a JUDGE who was supervising in the parliaments elections in a very poor town in upper Egypt governorate called Qena, the women came saying please Mr. show me where is the "....." saying the symbol without knowing even how it looks like or whom it represents... and in the presidential elections one came saying please i want to vote for Mohamed or Ahmed something like that which of them is called so??!! and the two candidates were both one called Ahmed & the other called Mohamed.

THESE ARE OUR DECISION MAKERS. IT IS NOT WE DON´T KNOW DEMOCRACY but in my own perspective i can´t find an intention from any of those calling themselves politicians to really add some words to our dictionary like development, progress, construction, even education & health

The army is one of the reasons that saved 25th of January revolution, why are they now blamed to save our 30th of June?! Isn´t Morsy the one who was asked what if million citizens not from your party protested against you? Will you say they came with secret plans from other countries? and he replied literally the weak president only says that, the president looking for reasons to hang his weakness on as before says that.....Isn´t he the one who said in El-Tahrir square the one who is guarded with anything but the people themselves is the LOSER and NO authority over the people´s authority. After 30th of June we are the supporters of Mubarak´s regime & agents & the protestors are not millions these videos are all Photoshop. how hilarious!!! the same as Mubarak´s media no creativity.

Our revolution was not only for the electricity, gas, prices... but mainly for Sinai, Halaieb & Shalatein, our diplomatic relations, constitution serving their interests, changing every decision maker position like in the Petroleum Sector with Ikhwanians..... we wanted to say no need to wait another 30 years as with Mubarak while everything is obvious now.

WE ARE NOT LICKING ANYONE´S ANYTHING and if El-Sisy didn´t fulfill the committments he promised... El-Tahrir square is still in its place that is the difference between us and Morsy´s supporters... we are not falling for El-Sisy however they are worshiping Morsy and saying in their demonstration that someone had a dream from Allah that Morsy prayed as an "Imam" and behind him was Muhammad (PBUH)!!!!

I´m not saying that this was the ultimate solution OR we are living the life we dreamt of, but dying with the hope that one day Egyptians will gain what they deserve is better than accepting the situations our politicians are putting our Country in.

May be this is not an interesting topic for most of you, but to relief my Conscience i had to say what i have said "in abbreviation"

Thanks for commenting this HaNNo.

I don´t think Tahrir square demonstrators want Murabak´s regime back. Far from it. All I am saying is the army has its own old interests in this and those are hardly development, progress, construction or even education and health. I hope I am wrong.

The army is a bad ally for democracy activists.

I agree the Ikhwan are probably at their best in charity work, not in state power. They made many and serious mistakes. But I refuse to agree in a country striving for democracy only clever and educated people should have a voice. We don´t want another thirty years you say. Ok, but why was the term of four years unbearable also?

Thanks for this response. 

I totally agree with you Abla that the army has their own interests, that´s why we were asking Morsy for prior elections as he promised to listen to any demonstrators against him without intervening the army... he had a big chance to gather the Egyptians but he couldn´t he is not taking his decisions by himself, it is the "Morshed - Mohamed Badie" according to the (listen & obey) rule.

In any job there is a way to hire someone and a way to fire him... except the Egyptian president... what could we do when seeing Ikhwan selling our Halaeib & Shalatien to Sudan, Sinai to Hamas & Islamic troops everywhere in the world, controlling the judicial authority, cutting any connections with Syria and starting the war "Gehad" against them, failing diplomatically with African Countries, humiliating us everywhere Morsy goes, giving a fake promise called 100 DAYS development project, dividing the Egyptians you can´t imagine how debates now look like not only between politicians but also in the same family this bayram was the worst ever in our lives...? Just in one year!!!

FOUR YEARS WOULD NEVER END. the first period Morsy, the next El-Shater, the next El-Beltagy, then Hegazy and so on...when we had to choose between Morsy & the prior Minister Shafiq, some said "it is better to wear the pullover "Shafiq" four years than wear galabeya "Ikhwan" forever"...

And i´m not asking to preserve the political voices only for clever & educated, but i refuse taking a privilege from their hunger as they are doing now with children in Rabaa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wShCy0jBvDA

the reporter: Is your father alive?

the kid: yes, (he is holding a message to his martyr father)

the reporter: so why are you holding this?

the kid: they gave it to us... those people over there

This is not the end hopefully...

Maybe they exaggerate, the situation has given them the cloak of martyrdom. But it does not change the fact that a massacre took place in Rabaa 27 July, does it?

If we want to find the good side of it we could say that people´s tolerance against unjustice and lousy living conditions has decreased. What during Mubarak´s time was seen as a necessity has changed into something people can oppose and stand against.

Ambiguity is our lifestyle now, what happened on 27th July was NOT at Rabaa it was somewhere close in front of a military institution, none of the army invaded Rabaa´s demonstrations, so who incited those innocent people to go overthere?

Grief & pain are deeply finding their ways into our hearts to all Egyptians dying for others´ interests, and to all soliders dying in Sinai everyday trying to clean up what Morsy did and was intending to do.

N.B: please don´t rely on aljazeera, they also have their own interests

Gosh they are getting themselves killed again.

Dictators will always be dictators.

This is massacre!!!

Egypt says 525 people were killed on Wednesday when security forces stormed Islamist protest camps in Cairo after a stand-off lasting weeks.

Most of the victims died in the capital but there was violence around the country on the bloodiest day since the pro-democracy uprising two years ago.

The final toll is believed far higher as scores of bodies are not registered.

Supporters of President Mohammed Morsi, who was ousted last month, say more than 2,000 died.

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23711534

Assalamu ´Alaykum (Peace be with you) ,

I would like to start by stressing on the fact that each person is entitled to have his own views whether he is pro or against the Ikhwan, pro or against Al-Fariq al-awwal Abdel Fatah Al-Sisi. I don´t support the Ikhwan in particular though I had a special admiration for their founder Hassan Al-Banna.

In the past I didn’t support the Ikwan nor was I against them but at present, I think that their leadership made a fatal mistake which will cost them more than they know. I suspect that in the future, they’ll be “completely” (?) dismantled. We are still waiting what decisions the government will take in regards to this matter.

I realize that some people consider what happened to be a coup neglecting the fact that millions of people went on to the streets on June 30 asking for the regime to be ousted.

Anyone who watched the news and talk shows on a daily basis could foresee this coming and to be objective one at least should look at the criticisms directed towards the Ikwan and their political speech which some people saw as provocative. The term “akhwanet al-dawla” i.e. making the state “ikwanised” was not unfamiliar.

As for people who say that Ikhwan were making charity work for the sake of charity work, this is not completely accurate. It is true that since Nasser took the power in 1952 he systematically excluded the Ikhwan from the power which led to banning them in 1954. Ikhwan were arrested afterwards. I believe that they refer to this as being the first ordeal they went through. The second being in 1965-1966 when the famous Sayyed Qutb was hanged (1966). It seemed back then that this was the fatal blow and that they will never rise on their feet again.

To be accurate, the Ikhwan were considered by the ruling power since the very start to have a dubious agenda (let’s remember that Hassan Al-Banna was assassinated in 1949 most probably by the “Secret Police” back then. The previous year, i.e. 1948, the Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmoud an-Nuqrashi Pasha was assassinated and the Ikhwan were accused of being behind this assassination).

Anyways, the point is that building support within the grassroots compensated the fact that they weren’t able to compete in the political arena. Hence, charity work wasn’t solely done in compliance with Islamic teachings, but it had the function of serving as a basis and a means when the time comes and when opportunity arises for Ikhwan to take power, which they ultimately did.

As for the army, the way non-Egyptians look at it differs from the way Egyptians look at it (except pro-Ikhwan supporters  naturally). The Egyptians who support the army don’t think of it as a despotic power because the army is made of Egyptians (very elementary statement, I realize that, but some people often neglect it). Each Egyptian family has at least one member of it who served in the army and/or who participated in Egypt’s wars against the Hebrew State. Egyptians who have served in the army have a very positive image of it … an image which has been conveyed to their families and which resulted in the utmost respect towards it. Egyptians are very patriotic and supporting the army who has fought in 1956, 1967 and 1973 equates with patriotism.

The way Ikhwan look at the army differs from this scheme because to them it is army officials who banned them and put them in jail. It is Biqbashi (which is translated as it seems to "second lieutenant") Gamal Abdel Nasser who is responsible for the two major ordeals in their history. So what can we expect from them in regards to endorsing the army?

Finally, some people advance the argument that the Ikhwan legally won the elections, to whom I ask: is democracy only about how many votes there are in the ballot boxes? Did the Ikhwan have the intention of giving back the power after the president’s four-year term if they lost in the ballots? Where did the Ikhwan policy serve the Egyptian state and where did it serve the Ikhwan interests? Did the engagement of the Ikhwan towards other Muslim Brothers branches in the Arab world affect its state policy? What do Ikhwan think of the idea of state, of patriotism and of loyalty towards Egypt?

One more question, if the army were to be dismantled and for some reason Israel launched an attack against Egypt to take back Sinai, will the Ikhwan, who vehemently attack the army even before the recent events, be able to protect the whole country and make sure that the land remains intact?

Finally, it is very unfortunate that so many people had to die. It doesn’t matter if they are Ikhwan or not, human lives are precious and nations (“les patries” in French) are also very precious.

Furthermore, despite the fact that the Egyptian government and army have been criticized worldwide (notwithstanding the fact that they solely take into consideration the Ikhwan’s account of the events), one should not forget that some “things” in life require sacrifices. What happened is very painful. The Egyptian army is not a despotic and bloody force which goes around killing its people. It is a time of crisis and time for Egyptians to stand by each other and behind the army because there is nothing worse for a nation to be defeated than an army with a weak spirit. We will discuss responsibilities after the crisis is over … what the Ikhwan did and what has been done to them. Responsibles from both sides will be accountable and Egypt will get back on the track to catch up the lost time in terms of modernizing the country and more.

P.S. for further reading about the Ikhwan, I suggest these couple of books in English. They give a very balanced and academic account of the issue they tackle.

The Society of the Muslim Brothers by Richard Mitchell:
http://www.amazon.com/Society-Muslim-Brothers-Richard-Mitchell/dp/0195084373

The Roots of Radical Islam by Gilles Kepel:
http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Radical-Islam-Gilles-Kepel/dp/0863565093

My best regards to you all …

Thanks for this lengthy explanation.

Your writing reminded me Turkey 10 years/15 ago. Very similar ideas about the army; almost rejecting the democracy- because the democracy can bring the backwards islamists into power!!-; thinking that your army is part of your nation (very similar in Turkey because of the complusary army duty as all of men go to the army), people get killed but it was necessary for the country etc.

Similarity is amazing, so as the progress Turkey had.

Regardless the way your reply seems to be so sarcastic to my words, i won´t consider it as an offense because you are the first one (unintentionally) encouraged me to learn turkish and i appreciate people doing good things to me.

But i´ve my own point of view and it has to be respected first because you are ALL calling for democracy second i´m a member here & i didn´t offend anyone since joining, and third because i´m Egyptian and you guys are talking about my country so my role towards it (whether you are convinced or not) is to say what i see & live everyday.

Calling it massacre or not doesn´t change the fact that it is an internal affair and we don´t care of or wait for the international judgements. EGYPT IS FOR THE EGYPTIANS. Each country has its BLACK history with their protesters so now calling for human rights & democracy in Egypt is hilarious.

In each Egyptian family there is at least a member in ARMY, POLICE, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, a MODERATE MUSLIM & a MARTYR (from protesters & from police e.g Kerdasa police officers). And it seems like my family is one of them (i can give you numbers & names if you want). so please don´t underestimate with our condition.

Thanks,

HaNNo and Aisha 

I wish for the best for you and your countrymen. I don´t know what is really going on, other than a lot of people are suffering and dying. 

You Egyptians really speak English very good like a native English speaker. Maybe I am too suspicious

I am sorry but saying that "it is our own affair" or "EGYPT IS FOR THE EGYPTIANS." are not correct and very very similar to Turkey (or with that extend  to the other countries that people could NOT call ´ah there is democracy there´

This is the world; new world order; we all know everything; we all want the similar things; we know what sort of democracy and freedoms exist in the world. Not like in old days . Because of very same reason Bruce Wills have a say about trees in Taksim square and he is welcomed, the same reason EU critisizes Turkey and they are welcomed. That is the reason we are critical of what is going on in Syria. 

This is the world we are living in and we now now what is hapenning. Not like old days when we would not know anything. ( Turkish military regime, like your Mubarak regime, like any other authoritarian regimes in the world, would hide the things from its own people and from the world)   

Basically, IT WAS A BLOODY MASSACRE AND your generals and coup are no different than any other coups in the world!!

Assalamu ‘Alaykum again,

Thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy explanation by which I wasn’t replying to anyone in particular.

Personally, I like to maintain an amicable climate when it comes to discussions, hence if you see that the view which I’ve expressed is “backward”, then you are free to do so. I won’t use the “tit for tat” approach and call your views or you “backward” because it is not a mature behavior.

As per what you said about the Islamists being backward (in the eyes of their opponents naturally) and for equating the stance from Ikhwan with the stance from democracy, then neither views are correct. Perhaps some people think that Islamists are not progressivist enough nor fit to govern but I don’t think so – not exactly - because describing the situation of the Ikhwan is much more complicated for people who know Ikhwan by first hand.

Second, the notion that the army is part and parcel of a state, is integrally incorporated in the definitions of a “state” which are adopted in all major universities which provide learning in political science and political sociology majors (but if you want to maintain that it is “backward,” fell free to do so). In the eyes of a political scientist or political sociologist it will be absurd and unscientific to exclude the notion of the army (and the usage of legitimate material and symbolic force) from the definition of a state.

Finally, drawing the comparison between the Egyptian army and the Turkish army is not pertinent because there is a different history which lies behind each of them notwithstanding also that there are differences between some of the ideals they embrace.

Amicably, Aisha

Thank you alameda ...
and you are right, the whole country is suffering and no one is refusing to acknowledge that a lot of Egyptians have died since June 30. However the bone of contention is about why and how it happened. The pro-Morsi supporters maintain that the protests were peaceful and that they were “butchered” by the army. This is their view and it found access to Western media. There is however another view which say that the army and the police were in their right because according to the Egyptian law, the interior ministry has the right to end a protest after 40 days. The proponents of this view maintain that the events escalated into violence because there was armed resistance from the protesters. There are a lot of accusations against the Ikhwan which are intentionally shunned away by televisions like CNN and Al-Jazira. Unfortunately, all of the TV’s in Egypt except for “Nile International” broadcast in Arabic, this is why some privately owned TV’s have started, as of today, to broadcast with a voice-over in English so that the “outside world” becomes aware that Egyptians who don’t support Ikhwan have solid reasons to do so … and that the army acted upon the people’s will (hence it wasn’t a coup).

Quoting gokuyum

You Egyptians really speak English very good like a native English speaker. Maybe I am too suspicious

There is no need to be suspicious brother gokyum because though not all Egyptians master English but those who do .. speak it well! If others can do it than we too can do it

How do you HaNNo .. I endorse you. Baraka Allahu fika بارك الله فيك.

This is argumentative and debatable. I can decorticate your words and provide counter-argumenrs but it is futile because at the end of the day Egypt will do what Egypt wants to do no matter how much it is criticized and regardless of what you and I or anyone else for that matter have to say.

Finally, thehandsom, haNNo, alameda .. it was interesting reading and responding to your comments.

Cordially ... Aisha

I´ve said before "I´m not saying that this was the ultimate solution OR we are living the life we dreamt of", & said also "we are not falling for El-Sisy".....

Your opinions are so respected really as Bruce Wills may be more you are really important for me guys but as an opinion (which could be right or wrong) but as you said our generals are no different than others in the world so i´m just telling them "look who´s talking?!"

But since we are now a different world and we all know now what´s happening, could you tell me WHO KNOWS THE TRUTH? Which news i can trust? who killed Kerdasa police officers (one of them is my cousin´s colleague), and who killed the protesters (one of them is my other cousin´s friend)? who burnt the churches and who burnt Rabaa mosque? why our soliders are sacrificing their souls everyday in Sinai & why Rabaa protesters are ready to sacrifice theirs?...

Who knows the truth?

Well something is clear: The army is opening fire on civilians!!

The state said, 200 deaths in the first day and now they says over 600.. Today´s death toll is over 60.  Ikhwan says over 2000. That is clear enough for me.. The world and the Egyptians should stand against the tyrant. Instead of trying to glorify their ´unmeasurable/unprovable  soul secrifying´, you should just be against their killings.  Your soldiers are not fighting against Israel. (That is again the same type of rethoric in ´developing countries´: soul secrifying, protecting the borders, who is dying for the country, what if India attacks -for pakistanis-, if we dont die in the south east, Turkey willsplit, what about Greeks -for Turks. That is enough actually..No one is asking for anything extra. Just respect the others and just stop killing your own people and stop finding- or creating- excuses to remain in the power)

Bruce Willis? I would praise his support for Taksim resistance at any time. He and many like him - Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Ben Kingsley etc made Gezi resistance world wide popular. They are the people who made the slogan ´from Taksim to Rio to Tahrir´.

So for me he is a better person -at least less harmfull- than any fascist general!!

Till this moment army is not in the image it´s only the police

And you believe "only" the Ikhwan´s statements because.....

We already stood against tyrants... "TWICE" and ready for more... but we were blamed in the second time, aren´t we? Do you think that i don´t care of having a real "Islamic Regime" in Egypt? I really do but Ikhwan, Salafists, Hazem Abu Ismail...noooo not those people

Again our soliders are dying everyday in Sinai specially in Al-Areesh protecting our territory & our borders who said they are not?! Against Israel or other terrorists doesn´t change the fact that they are to be praised. And Israel!!!... please, we fought against them and paid for that enormously high costs. And by the way El-Sadat which happens to be an "army general" is the one who wrote our history.

I respect the others and i don´t want any Egyptian to be killed, its against my religion & Muhammad (PBUH) teachings actually for muslim to kill another, please read my words well i said i have allll types now in my family one was working with his colleague when the last & others got SLAUGHTERED by "civilians" and hanged up NAKED in Kerdasa Police Station...and another one is a physician in Rabaa seing dead demonstration´s mates falling one after another. I´m not defending or giving excuses to any of them it´s just to be fair i´ve to mention that both are victims. But you see it one way fight!!!

Bruce Wills?!!! why are you so aggressive?!! i didn´t say anything bad i said your opinion means alot to me even more than Bruce Wills... it´s a compliment

I just believe that... NOT ALL PROTESTERS HAVE RIGHT... NOT ALL GENERALS ARE TYRANTS... NOT ALL DEAD PEOPLE ARE MARTYRS... NOT ALL THOSE SHOWING SUPPORT REALLY CARE ABOUT EGYPT... nothing is for granted as I believe

Ya Allah we need you, save Egypt...say ameen

Egyptian security forces have surrounded a mosque in the capital, Cairo, amid a stand-off with barricaded Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

Dozens remain, refusing to believe the authorities´ pledge of a safe exit.

The tense stand-off follows a day of bloody clashes on Friday in which more than 80 people died and 1,000 Brotherhood supporters were arrested.

The group has called for daily protests after a crackdown on their camps in Cairo on Wednesday left hundreds dead.
..
Speaking to Al Jazeera by phone from inside the mosque, Omaima Halawa said there were about 700 people, including women and children, inside and that they feared leaving the mosque because "there were thugs outside with the security forces, and that ... the security forces were working with the thugs".

..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23736600

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381742936960875.html

---

What is next? Erase the mosque with tanks?

Seeing these viewpoints is interesting. Since someone mentioned that you should "accept what democracy brings.." (something along the lines of that), yes I agree and that is why I believe that if there are millions of Egyptians asking for Morsi to step down, it should be done and it has. However, now you have the horrific turmoil brewing all over Egypt. What a sad sight. The retaliation is disgusting! For Morsi´s supporters, if they were actually democratic, they would not be engaging in violent crimes against their opposition. This only proves how undemocratic they are. The Brotherhood wanted the so called "democracy" and therefore they should stop fighting. So many people have taken to the streets, showing their opposition towards them yet, the Brotherhood continue to fight...but in violence. Their actions speak much louder than their words. 

Really??????  woooow. That´s would Be Great Job..  !! !!

how did u think about this????

   ..  !!

I think you misunderstood about what democracy is. (however, you have some good points which people might think further) . First of all the army intervention is not the democracy. It is a blatantly backwards, blatantly undemocratic move and it always but always ends up with screwing up the democracy and stopping countries for many years in the path to a real democracy. That is what happened in Turkey with 3 coups, what happened in Spain, what happened in Greece etc. The second thing is that I could not see and armed resistance so far from Brotherhood. I think there is serious provocation by the army against the people who feel cheeted by army. The state should not respond to the protestors who are throwing stones with live bullets.(in Turkey, the police responds with tear gas to the protestors and we accuse Erdogan being a fascist!!)

That is why  the army  is  wrong and that is why the army is being accused with fascism.

(anyway the interesting point I was talking about is that, if the democracy is done via elections, but what happens if 1 million protesters protest against the goverment in the half way or elections are far away? or what if the goverments suporters have more than 1 million -as it is in Egytp- supporters? The goverment should resign? what about the others? or what if the goverments supporters dont come to the streets but vote for the same party again in the elections? -these things happened in Turkey for example)

Hi,

A newbie here. I agree with your thoughts. Though they made me look at the picture in a broader way, hence this may be a bit OFF TOPIC. Sorry about that.

Just a couple of thoughts on Egypt: true, democracy is done via elections. But can we expect - regardless what the outcome of the election was - that people handle the result democratically in a country, where generations grown up without truly practicing democracy? I doubt that. It is deeply saddening to see that one kills the other because of political reasons. These killings cannot be justified. Saddening and horrible to see the army intervening.

Broadly speaking, whoever wins an election, steers the wheel and has its way with respect of the minority. I believe, in a healthy democracy millions of protesters should be a clear message to any government, that tells that someting goes wrong and some actions must be taken… or there is a chance for calling for early elections as well, in certain situations.  Well... provided that this is a healthy democracy where the minority can have their say and they are heard, and at the same time the government are able to negotiate with the opposition. Perhaps what has happened in Brazil recently, might be a good example of that. (Obvioulsy it is not the case in Egypt)

However when there are millions of protesters on the streets for days/weeks and they are not heard at all, well, that’s a different story. Why is that I wonder? I suspect there are some countries where the „with the respect of the minority” part seems to be left out. There are a couple of countries where the government  try to concentrate powers and turn the result of the democratic elections into something where the winner takes all. Lets say in Russia for example, you can see how the opposition got intimidated, and jailed. Or how the media got silenced. This is a new thing in a couple of so-called democratic countries, and I truly hope that it is not a new pattern of governance. I doubt that such a government would resign. Why would they do? They are in full power. My fear is that in such circumstances there is very little chance for the opposition to take actions, and you might be right, with no other alternatives, lots of people may re-elect the government in power. Though… who knows? Maybe Lincoln was right: „You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

I understand very well what democracy is, but in the case of Egypt there just too many interrelated issues to weigh democracy next to them. Yes in the beginning, a democratic vote was taken to put Morsi into office. However now the majority of Egyptians (as seen by the MILLIONS of demonstrators) want him out, and although he is out, his supports continue to retaliate by attacking people against Morsi. This is being witnessed day to day. Churches being burned down, people kidnapped, I mean it is completely out of control. I understand your point that the army is undemocratic, HOWEVER, (and I know this is going to be completely ironic) if the majority of Egyptians call for Al-Sisi to step in and approve of his tactics to government, how is that then oppressing Egyptians? They chose this government right? There is always going to be people with and against a government and at this point it seems as though most Egyptians want a central government in place wherein the general citizens´ safety and stability is secured. I think no matter what your philosophy in life is, the average human being seeks their physiological needs before anything else. Yes it is absolutely as important as having a just government, however in some cases fairness can differ when weighed before your physical safety. Rick Riordan once said:

“Fairness does not mean everyone gets the same. Fairness means everyone gets what they need”

I also think both sides are feeling threatened by one another and are therefore protecting themselves. It also depends on who is instigating this violence. IF it´s the army, then Egyptians have a complete right to fight back! However, if it´s the Brotherhood, then Egyptians have a complete right to protection and deserve to be protected. I firmly believe that you have to be there to truly witness which side is the oppressed, however one can always make an educated guess/infer. I definitely agree with some of your points. 

At least 24 Egyptian policemen have been killed in an attack by suspected militants in the Sinai peninsula.

The attack on the police convoy, close to the town of Rafah on the Gaza border, was one of the deadliest on security forces in several years.

...
So far, the tourist resort of Sharm El Sheikh [at the southern tip of the Sinai] has remained immune to the post-Arab Spring violence. It is too early to tell if this attack is in direct response to events in Cairo and other mainland Egyptian cities and there was no immediate claim of responsibility.

And separately, a lawyer for Hosni Mubarak has said he hopes the former leader could be released from prison within the next two days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23751954

..

Anti-coup marchers are back on the streets of Egypt amid calls for an international probe into the deaths of 36 protesters while in police custody.
..
The protests come hours after the Anti-Coup Alliance, which includes the Muslim Brotherhood, demanded a formal investigation into the deaths of 37 men being transported in a police van.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381910424530930.html

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I think the army of Egypt is taking Egypt to a civil war!! Such as shame after an amazing start of the Arab Spring which gave many other countries such a tremendous hope.

Thanks for the input.

But can we expect - regardless what the outcome of the election was - that people handle the result democratically in a country, where generations grown up without truly practicing

democracy?

Do we have any alternative ways or does it mean that we dont accept the election results because they dont have experience in democracy? Or what do you think it will happen if Egypt goes to elections today? what if Brotherhood comes back? (possibly they will) will they keep staging the coup to keep them out of power?

I believe, in a healthy democracy millions of protesters should be a clear message to any government, that tells that someting goes wrong and some actions must be taken…

Do you remember Turkish protests in 2007 (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumhuriyet_Mitingleri). There were millions in those meetings.. But they never succeeded in elections and in the elections AKP came back again. We know how powerful  Gezi protests were. But what do you think it would happen if there were elections today in Turkey? And more over what would happen if the army makes plans at the back ground to stage these protests? (in 2007, Cumhuriyet Mitingleri were all arranged by Turkish Army, they even killed a member from Turkish counsil of State -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Council_of_State_shooting- to enrage  anti islamists)

ps. I really appreciate your inputs. Please do more

Nobel Prize winner Turkish author Orhan Pamuk has accused western countries for betraying their own values, regarding the latest developments in Egypt.

..
Pamuk said "He (al-Sisi) told the world that he would stage a military coup before the army took over. The whole world, especially  the west turned their heads and did not want to hear anything’’, adding that now, not only the US government and the EU but also western countries behave as they have no responsibility by saying the army was killing people.
Suggesting that the western effect might have diminished over Arab countries following the Arab Spring, Orhan Pamuk also said that the western world could simply have said a military coup could not be a tool for political conflict.
Pamuk also underlined that significant political bodies of the west could not call what happened in Egypt a “military coup” and western values that have ideals such as democracy, human rights and etc. either exist or they do not exist because political or economic calculations are gave in.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=115436

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A Turkish intellect we will be proud of many generations!

"We are not controlling the land, but what´s happening in Sinai as a respond on the coup will stop in the second Abdel Fattah el-Sisy declares stepping back of the coup, correcting the situation and giving it back to its owners and the president is back to his authorities", said Mohamed el-Beltagy after el-Sisy´s support to the 30th of June revolution

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kja622cli2s&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKja622cli2s

I´m not accusing Ikhwan or whoever, as Beltagy also said that any violence is not a must to be from them but its a reaction to "what so called" coup.

so how come suspected militants... stop it thehandsom... just because you see any militant as a tyrant is not a must to make any civilian a democratic

Perhaps the way I wrote was not clear, sorry about the confusion. I didn´t mean to say that I encourage not to accept the result of any democratic elections. I do. And I believe - even if the winner is not for my taste - we should give them a chance to prove that they can do some good. 

If there hadn´t been a military coup, then perhaps the Brotherhood would have lost any early elections anyway, as then they would have been measured by their actions and decisions that were taken while they were in power - which decisions seemed to be unpopular. Now injustice comes to the first place, and hides the wrongdoings.

My opinion may not be favored here, but to me a military coup has nothing to do with democracy. It cannot be a tool, it cannot be a solution, and it cannot be an option in a democratic country. Would any government be legitimate that came to power by force? Furthermore, if a government come to power by force, would they accept any idea that differs from theirs? Would they negotiate? Would they accept any constitutional checks, or any counterweight?

Can you picture al-Sisi and Morsi sitting at the same table negotiating? I know the answer.

Regarding Turkey - well, I didn´t want to be that direct, but if you could please read the last paragraph in my previous post in this thread. I think more or less that would stand for Turkey too.

Update:

I´m just reading the news, and it looks like the majority of the people in Egypt seem to be adapted with state of emergency. That might be because this is what they get used to, and most likely the army has status, esteem and importance. Initially I thought that after the coup, Morsi would be widely supported, but I was wrong. It looks like the majority would prefer an army chief governing and see the army getting everything in order before new elections come. And this is fine, it is just not something I expected, but evidently it shows only the lack of my knowledge about the situation.

Just one question came to my mind: if the goal is to crack down the Brotherhood, and get them marginalised, will it not radicalise them even more?

Pamuk is right. It´s a shame that when it comes to western intervention (or the lack of it) many times western political and econonomic interests come first and democratic values only second.

Surely the US/EU preferred to deal with the army in Egypt rather than seeing an islamist power ruling, so by not saying the word "coup" they pretended as if it didn´t happen. Though they condemned the killings, nothing else have been said. It´s a disgrace and so disappointing. While the US/EU expect other countries to teach democratic values, strengthen democracy or work towards that, in the meantime they fail to do so.

You may have noticed that many Arab countries - while condemning the killings - were also happy to see the army taking over, and was nothing said about the coup. 

Meanwhile the Turkish PM was deeply disappointed and he was quite outspoken condemning the coup. He is right, fair enough. I´m wondering if the most important motives to him were justice and democracy? Or it might be ideological? Or  - I´m only guessing here, and ready to remove this part of my post if it doesn´t fit - he feels threatened by the western silence?

I notice that TRT is still calling the ruling Egyptian Army "darbeci", but is no longer referring to Mursi followers as "democrats". The latter is simply called Moslem Brothers symphatizers nowadays, which sounds more honest.