Daydreamer, at least we are getting someplace closer to an understanding....

Let me tell you about some samples....Let´s say a boy and girl are going to the same school, or they have mutual friends, they have been in many groups with those persons. They have had opportunities to talk and see each other, but not alone. Maybe they tell an aunt, or she, (a matchmaker) notices the sparks....the aunt or matchmaker then makes inquires about that person.

Information is gathered an analyzed, and discussed. If it seems right a family member goes to the girls family and makes a suggestion. It is either rejected or accepted. If it´s accepted an engagement is made and the couple date, but hey are not alone, at least not for long.

If after a suitable time they decide they in fact do like each other, the marriage goes through. If not, it is terminated.

I know of one couple where the wife continued going to school and got her Phd, while she was supported by her husband. She had a child that was taken care of by family when she was in school. That was part of the marriage agreement the families agreed to.

When you are in the flames of passionate love rational thinking goes out the door. The objective in arranging marriage is to get things at the spark level, rather than when there is an all consuming raging fire.

 You know Daydreamer...pulling posts out of context really is not that honest a strategy. Why didn´t you include the thread names so things can be read in context?

Anyway.....nobody is asking you or anyone here to be in an arranged marriage. I admit, some are tragic, and not all work, but I have seen hundreds of them....and most have worked very well. I have also seen hundreds of "Western" marriages, most of which failed only to lead to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...and on marriages...with traumatized children scattered all over the place.

I´ve seen hundreds of lonely old people abandoned old people....whose children have gone off and abandoned their parents.....it breaks your heart. I´ve seen many an old bachelors and bachelorette (aka) spinsters....with nobody to care for them.

I speak from experience, from what I have seen in the flesh, not some hypothetical analysis.

 Let me refresh you on what was being discussed...that you claim I encourage...

"Women in Eastern Turkie cannot marry men they want.

According to a survey among 1401 women in eastern and souther-eastern Turkie by KAMER (Women association center) there are some interesting (or shocking) results:
43% is forced to marry before they are under 18, of those 74% are married according to the agreement between the families and 6.6% unwilingly forced to marry.
24.6% those who are married between 13-15 years of age
22.1% those who are married between 16-17 years of age
1.2% those who are married under 12"

Where have I ever said I approve of forced marriage under any conditions, and particularly these?

While I may approve of arranged marriage, of course if done well, never have I said I approve of forced or coerced marriage......and I still challenge you to reveal just how many arranged marriages do you really have any real life experience with?

That seems to be true dear lemon....however it seems your opinion has changed.

You know groups can be manipulated into thinking things if they are told to think a certain way. If you tell a lie enough, people believe it´s true. When DD and H say I have said such and such...it creates the idea I have....when I have not. I think DD actually thinks I do, the H...who knows? It is subtle, but it works, knowing about such techniques helps.

The fact of the matter is I don´t support anybody being forced into marriage. However, there are advantages to having help with these things....as long as the ultimate participants agree.

I know there are situations where there is force by coercion....and that is a powerful force...which is, as you say, forced. Of course I don´t condone such things....and I have NEVER said I do. IF someone misunderstood what I said, I´m sorry, but there also have to be some responsibilty for actually carefully reading things before making such statements.

As for the East, patience...and perserverance.....

  I´ve never seen that happen.....

What´s even sadder is that Alameda will jump in this thread in a moment and praise the benefits of arranged marriages. Apparently some people find these poor girls´ fate a blessing

 Note the fouth message in this thread....you brought me into it with an insulting remark. I had not been in the thread and had no interest in getting involved in it, until you brought me in.

And again, it´s your opinion which if you seem to think if you repeat enough it will be true....it´s NOT!

 Bravo Elisabeth....this is the most useful comment in this thread so far! I think this will probably be contested sometime in the near future though. It´s interesting to see how laws can be twisted and turned into things that hardly resemble what the intent was....

I think there has to be a better way. What we are doing is dehumanizing and humiliating people, as well as exposing them to health hazards. Not much good comes out of policies like that.

I love Ann Richards take on airport security.... may she rest in peace...a Texan and one of my favorite ladies....watch this...it is so funny....

OMG....I miss Ann <---<  this link is for any who don´t know who she was

Actually....here is what you said.....about me....

"I think we all have been here for a long time and seen the arguments of Alameda..

Apart from supporting  all backwards and primitive behaviours and traditions which we spend almost life time fighting to change, she, even, at some stage, talked about Turkish people´s bad habbit of  not reading books as if it was a good thing!!!."

What you have done is put up unsubstantiated statements that defame my character. While it is not technically not slander...but rather libel...you have a point. However the effect is the same.

The above statement from you may be your impression, but in fact, it is not true.

Wiki has some interesting material on this matter:

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, broup, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant)

In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. 

A person who destroys another´s reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing.

I am interested in idea exchange, in fact I greatly value it. If someone does not agree with me after thoughtful discussion, so be it. However when they insist I have said what I have not, I protest.

 Dear Daydreamer,

I have a life I have to attend to now, but I still contend that arranged and forced are not the same.....and I don´t have an idea how many times I have to repeat I am against any forced marriage for you to actually understand that. What can I do, I say white, you see black?

I did not say hormones should not enter into a marriage decision. If someone is not attractive to you, there is no hope for a good marriage, however it is not the only criteria.

Please note, you had to put the qualifier IF into your definition....which changes things....in that case it is not arranged...it is forced.  If one can decline the arrangement, it is not forced. IOW an arrangement can either be accepted or declined.

I suggest you read the actual definition of arranged marriage... I accept the Wikipedia definition of issue, instead of yours.

 see again you are doing it....here is a quote of what I wrote:

"I challenge both you and Daydreamer to show your proof...or shut the **** up! "

.......you don´t seem to understand....saying what you think I said is not proof.

You come here with your chauvinistic "Western" wiser than thou, more civilized than thou attitude putting down traditions you don´t understand or want to understand, (although nobody is subjecting you to those traditions) like as if your culture is superior.....

I have stated many many times that arranged marriage is NOT forced marriage....but you don´t seem to be capable of understanding that???? I don´t understand it.......how can you think they are the same thing. I never said anyone should be forced to marry, but rather that there are advantages to having help.

Regarding the maturity of boys and girls...it´s a simple fact girls mature faster...go study some science...they are sexually mature younger than boys. You do understand what that means....? It´s a fact....and it´s a fact that they often do have sex...sanctioned or not...it seems quite wide spread in Western countries. I guess you would have to take a survey to see how hideous those girls felt it was. I doesn´t appear they were all raped, which is criminal as well as hideous.

You have thrown everything but the kitchen sink in here....I really don´t have time or energy to discuss them all at this time. However I will not sit by and let you slander me by saying I have said things I have not said. It is rather your misunderstanding of what I have said.

As for my anger....it´s not anger....it´s frustration ....you know abut that?