Welcome
Login:   Pass:     Register - Forgot Password - Resend Activation

Turkish Class Forums / Language

Language

Add reply to this discussion
-abil / -ebil problems...
(16 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       Elisa
0 posts
 26 Aug 2007 Sun 10:01 am

I have some problems understanding the Olumsuz II form of this tense, İ’ll try to explain.

Ör.: “Yarınki partiye gelecek misin?”

- “Tabii ki geleceğim”
- “Hayır, gelmeyeceğim”
- “Hayır, gelemem.”


These kind of replies all give a 100% sure answer, there is no doubt about coming or not coming to the party.

BUT
I have a problem with the use of –ebil/-abil with a negative verb

For example the following replies to the above question:

“Henüz bilmiyorum. Belki gelebilirim, belki gelemem”.
I understand this one, İ’m still in doubt about going so that’s my answer.

“Gelebilirim de gelmeyebilirim de”
Here is where İ get kind of lost… As far as İ can see, giving this kind of reply implies doubt as well. What’s the difference in meaning then with the above sentence?

“Gelemeyebilirim”
And this one is a really hard one for me. As far as I understand, İ actually would want to go to the party, but there is something beyond my control (probable traffic problems, a very ill relative…) that makes it unable for me to decide right now.

İf someone could explain this with more examples it would be great.

2.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 26 Aug 2007 Sun 10:20 am

Elisa I will just translate them into English so you can see the difference. A language teacher can explain the grammar better, so I'll leave this up to them!

“Tabii ki geleceğim” Of course I will come
GELECEĞİM = I will come

“Hayır, gelmeyeceğim” No, I will not come (or, colloquially, no I'm not coming)
GELMEYECEĞİM = I will not come

“Hayır, gelemem.” No, I can't come
GELEMEM = I can't come

“Henüz bilmiyorum. Belki gelebilirim, belki gelemem”.
I don't know yet, maybe I will be able to come, maybe I won't
GELEBİLİRİM = I can come
GELEMEM= I can't come

“Gelebilirim de gelmeyebilirim de”
I may be able to come, I may not be able to come
GELEBİLİRİM = I can come
GELEMEYEBİLİRİM= I may not be able to come
In the sentence above the speaker introduced the note of uncertainty by using BELKİ=maybe with a definite verb (I can or can't come). In the second the speaker uses uncertainty in the verb itself. They mean the same, just two ways of saying it (Like I may not be able to come or Maybe I can't come in English)

“Gelemeyebilirim”
GELEMEYEBİLİRİM= I may not be able to come

wintertulips liked this message
3.       Elisa
0 posts
 26 Aug 2007 Sun 10:30 am

Quoting MarioninTurkey:

Elisa I will just translate them into English so you can see the difference.



Thank you Marion, the English translation helped a lot, it's getting clearer now!

4.       Dilara
1153 posts
 29 Aug 2007 Wed 03:27 am

I will explain as it was explained to me:
Verb "gelmek"

Gelemeyebilirim : I may not be able to come
Gelmeyebilirim : I may not come ( There is a possibility of not coming . I may come or not - depends on something else)

Gelmeyebilirim : depends on the speaker's WILL , he isnt sure in advance BUT
GelEMEyebilirim : Doesnt depend on the epeaker's will but on circumstances.

Hope this helps !
Dilara.

5.       Elisa
0 posts
 30 Aug 2007 Thu 04:52 am

Quoting Dilara:

GelEMEyebilirim : Doesnt depend on the epeaker's will but on circumstances.

Hope this helps !



It surely does! So I guess I understood it right then

Thanks Dilara.

6.       Dilara
1153 posts
 30 Aug 2007 Thu 05:32 am

Quoting Elisa:

Quoting Dilara:

GelEMEyebilirim : Doesnt depend on the epeaker's will but on circumstances.

Hope this helps !



It surely does! So I guess I understood it right then

Thanks Dilara.



I am glad it helped you Elisa! any doubt let us know!
Dilara

7.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 31 Aug 2007 Fri 10:40 pm

Hi Elisa,

I just wanted to add that, perhaps you may find it easier to conceptualize if you do not stick to grammatical descriptions too much. They are usually arbitrary, and do not always follow much logic unless one has a solid grasp of word formation patterns in Turkish.

The primary verb root is GEL+MEK / to come. All others derive from this root by combining themselves with either other verbal roots, such as BIL+MEK / to know, or suffixes.

Think about it in this way. BILMEK generally translates as knowing or being aware of something. It could also mean that you have sufficient knowledge or 'ability' to do something.

E.g. okumayi bilmek / to know how to read

What is special about the verb BILMEK is that it tends to attach itself to other verbs, and usually indicates that one has the 'ability' or 'Know-How' to do something.

E.g. gormek / to see gor+e+bil+mek / to be able to see
sevmek / to love sev+e+bil+mek / to be able to love

You must have noticed the infix -e that is used to combine the primary verb with the secondary verb 'bilmek' in order to create the compound verbal formations, such as gorebilmek or sevebilmek.

The same -e may also take the form of -a, as in YAP+A+BIL+MEK due to vowel harmony. But, either way, it is just a bridge particle, which glues one verb to another.

Regarding your question about 'GELEMEYEBILIRIM', I would suggest that you try to break it down as below:

GEL+E+ME+(Y)E+BIL+IR+IM

Gelemeyabilirim indicates at the possibility that one may not be able go somewhere. +ME (or +MA) in this case is a form of negation.

GELMEK vs GEL+E+ME+MEK / not able to come

In this form, we have a verbal root combining itself with to suffixes, +E(A) & +ME(MA).

Then, suffix +E is used again to glue BILMEK to give the expression a sense of unpredictability meaning that it all depends on other circumstances.

Here is the gimmick though. Instead of saying 'gelemeyebilirim' you could have said 'gelemem', which would indicate the same thing with a subtle difference.

O gun gelemem. / I can't come that day.
O gun gelemeyebilirim. / I may not be able to come that day.

BILMEK is basically added for reasons of politeness in most cases. It serves the purpose of avoiding sounding too direct or harsh when it comes to negating someone or something.



samira_alani liked this message
8.       egyptian_tomb
318 posts
 31 Aug 2007 Fri 11:50 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:

Hi Elisa,

I just wanted to add that, perhaps you may find it easier to conceptualize if you do not stick to grammatical descriptions too much. They are usually arbitrary, and do not always follow much logic unless one has a solid grasp of word formation patterns in Turkish.

The primary verb root is GEL+MEK / to come. All others derive from this root by combining themselves with either other verbal roots, such as BIL+MEK / to know, or suffixes.

Think about it in this way. BILMEK generally translates as knowing or being aware of something. It could also mean that you have sufficient knowledge or 'ability' to do something.

E.g. okumayi bilmek / to know how to read

What is special about the verb BILMEK is that it tends to attach itself to other verbs, and usually indicates that one has the 'ability' or 'Know-How' to do something.

E.g. gormek / to see gor+e+bil+mek / to be able to see
sevmek / to love sev+e+bil+mek / to be able to love

You must have noticed the infix -e that is used to combine the primary verb with the secondary verb 'bilmek' in order to create the compound verbal formations, such as gorebilmek or sevebilmek.

The same -e may also take the form of -a, as in YAP+A+BIL+MEK due to vowel harmony. But, either way, it is just a bridge particle, which glues one verb to another.

Regarding your question about 'GELEMEYEBILIRIM', I would suggest that you try to break it down as below:

GEL+E+ME+(Y)E+BIL+IR+IM

Gelemeyabilirim indicates at the possibility that one may not be able go somewhere. +ME (or +MA) in this case is a form of negation.

GELMEK vs GEL+E+ME+MEK / not able to come

In this form, we have a verbal root combining itself with to suffixes, +E(A) & +ME(MA).

Then, suffix +E is used again to glue BILMEK to give the expression a sense of unpredictability meaning that it all depends on other circumstances.

Here is the gimmick though. Instead of saying 'gelemeyebilirim' you could have said 'gelemem', which would indicate the same thing with a subtle difference.

O gun gelemem. / I can't come that day.
O gun gelemeyebilirim. / I may not be able to come that day.

BILMEK is basically added for reasons of politeness in most cases. It serves the purpose of avoiding sounding too direct or harsh when it comes to negating someone or something.






Are you teaching? This, along with the other explainations are by far some of the best I have read yet explaining the combining of verbs.....but I believe for now I may lean to the shorter words until such time I learn better.

Thanks!

9.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 02 Sep 2007 Sun 01:46 am

Hello egyptian_tomb

I actualy have no teaching qualifications or any teaching experience. I am generally interested in Old Turkish, its etymology, and how some of the absurdities of Modern Turkish came about. I am happy you found our replies helpful

10.       Elisa
0 posts
 02 Sep 2007 Sun 01:27 pm

Quoting cynicmystic:


Here is the gimmick though. Instead of saying 'gelemeyebilirim' you could have said 'gelemem', which would indicate the same thing with a subtle difference.

O gun gelemem. / I can't come that day.
O gun gelemeyebilirim. / I may not be able to come that day.



Thanks for your extensive reply cynicmystic

One remark though: for me there is more than a "subtle difference" between 'gelemem' and 'gelemeyebilirim'. First one is just stating a fact, maybe you have an appointment already. Second could imply for example that you live in a tiny village with bad roads and because of the fact they say it's gonna snow heavily, there is no way you can say if you will come or not, not even if you wanted.

But anyway, I understood it now, thanks

(16 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
Add reply to this discussion




Turkish Dictionary
Turkish Chat
Open mini chat
New in Forums
possessive case help me..
mrdr: Hi,Could you please write whole sentence? If I know the sentence,...
Grammar Textbook
qdemir: The e-book version is now $4.99 instead of $9.99 at Amazon.com till th...
TURK-ENG. .THX...
mrdr: Hi, This is more difficult than other sentence. I try to translate. ...
TUR-ENG thank you...
mrdr: Hi,It is very difficult to protect real ... I translated in Go...
Eid
bydand: Iyi Bayramlar.
Türkçem kontrol edebilir misin lütfen?
john250: yardimin ... teşekkur ederim. Hersey anladim
Türkçem kontrol edebilir misın lütfen?
john250: yardımın ... teşekkur ederım
Göre explained
ETurgut1974: Thank you
Göre explained
ETurgut1974: I understand that ... ... means ... to me’. In a movie I re...
Göre explained
ETurgut1974: I understand that ... ... means ... to me’. In a movie I re...
- mıştı / -dı
: ...
e to t please
mrdr: Haziran sonunda ... ... Orada olacak mısın? Seninle buluşma...
Random Pictures of Turkey
Add thumbnails like this to your site
Most liked
Ayşe

Story by erdinc