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Armenians-Turks
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| 130. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:20 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting KeithL: OK, not to argue now, but want to give you some accurate history. It was Greece that invaded Turkey after WWI and made it all the way from Smyrna to Samsun. Greece lost land in SW Turkey as the turkish army fought them all the way back and off the main land.
The military events of 1974 were a result of a greek led military coup and the subsequent attacks on Turks on the island. Where we sit today is a result of Greek aggresion, and Turkey defending its citizens. |
Keith, as I said, I don't think there's a single guilty side here, but you are quoting very selective facts. Greece was invaded by Ottomans and totally overtaken for couple hundred years! When they finally regained their independence, they didn't return to their former borders and initiated battles to get back the land to include the ethnic Greek population. |
Catwoman, these two events are hardly selective. They are the two pillars of turkish-greco realtions in the last 100 years. If I am being selective, please identify any issue I may be forgetting about in the last century.
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| 131. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:26 pm |
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Quoting vineyards: Anatolia did not belong to Greeks either. They also captured it from Trojans. If everyone were to claim back where they once lived where would the Poles end up for example? Meanwhile, as a person who constantly criticize Turks for all sorts of things, I have never ever for God's sake heard you criticize your own country and culture for once. |
We will definately end up close to the Black Sea's shores  but you know Yalta where the Poles were just sold again.
Anyway taking history into consideration and all Polish-Turkish wars and tug of wars the thing I really appreciate and I must admit admire in a way about our political relationship is the fact that Turkey as the only country was against partition of Poland between Russia,Prussia and Austria in 18th century due to which we disappeared from european maps for 200 years.
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| 132. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:36 pm |
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The excuse Catwoman is using to justify the Greek invasion of Turkey is very much like Hitler's invasion of Poland at the pretext of Danzig issue. According to Catwoman, Hitler must have had a stronger excuse not belonging to hundreds of years ago but to the near past.
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| 133. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 08:41 pm |
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Quoting vineyards: The excuse Catwoman is using to justify the Greek invasion of Turkey is very much like Hitler's invasion of Poland at the pretext of Danzig issue. According to Catwoman, Hitler must have had a stronger excuse not belonging to hundreds of years ago but to the near past. |
Mercy me and my compatriots!!!!not DANZIG but GDAŃSK!!!!!!!it was founded as GDAŃSK NOT danzig!!!!!
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| 134. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 09:03 pm |
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Regarding Cyprus...here's a post I made a while ago...
It might be interesting to look at what else was going on regarding Greece and Turkey at the time.
1955 - Greek Cypriots begin guerrilla war against British rule. The guerrilla movement, the National Organisation of Cypriot Combatants (EOKA), wants enosis (unification) with Greece.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1021835.stm
For more history....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cyprus
>--------------------------------------------------<
Here's another link about the history of who owned Cyprus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Cypriot_history
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| 135. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 09:49 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Catwoman, these two events are hardly selective. They are the two pillars of turkish-greco realtions in the last 100 years. If I am being selective, please identify any issue I may be forgetting about in the last century. |
I said that you are quoting selective facts because you mentioned Greeks invading Turks, but you haven't mentioned that it was after they gained their independence from Ottomans and were trying to regain their land.
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| 136. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 10:10 pm |
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The Turkish men I know, when I mentioned wanting to visit Greece commented "Why would you want to visit Greece, blah blah blah. They didn't seem to fond of their neighbor, in my opinion.
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| 137. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 10:33 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: Why is it significant whether the US government “condemns†the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians?
It is significant because to this day, while most of the rest of the world acknowledges the historical truth of the Armenian Genocide, Turkey continues to deny that it happened. Turkish Penal Code Section 301 actually makes it a crime in Turkey to discuss the murders of the Armenians as an “insult to Turkishness.â€
Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was recently gunned down in the street by a nationalistic Turk. Before his death he was prosecuted under section 301 for writing about the Armenian Genocide. His son, as well, was just prosecuted under that same law for publishing some of his father’s writings on the Genocide. You cannot turn a blind eye to a nation that refuses to admit a horrific period of its past.
Denial is the last and final stage of Genocide. To allow a country such as Turkey to rewrite history and deny the truth on a matter of such great magnitude is to allow those who would commit atrocities in places like Darfur to believe that they can get away with their evil. Hitler looked back at the Armenian Genocide and said, “Who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?â€
When a country such as the US sends a loud and clear statement that any Genocide, even one that occurred 90 years ago, is unacceptable, the world will listen and Turkey may just take an unpleasant yet honest look at its history.
To me the question is Turkey, really, what’s the problem with admitting it was a genocide? It’s not like Japan went under when it admitted the horrendous things they did to the Korean, Chinese, and Japanese “comfort women†from WWII. |
Teaschip - please tell me what do you know about this issue? And what makes you so convinced that it was a genocide? Don't you think that there's something wrong with the fact that politicians decide on these things? Have you heard of a big investigation going on to resolve this issue before they accepted it? - I haven't.
Yes, there is a serious problem with the penal code 301, but how does this confirm a historical event? Yes, there is this nationalistic attitude among Turkish people, and I wouldn't necessarily believe what the mainstream theory on this topic is, but why does that imply that the other mainstream side is flawless? Why do you automatically believe the other story?
And as far as US sending a message... sorry, but it's not a good message. It says more about how the US is a hypocrite judging others and invading other countries themselves. I mean, how would you call it if one country invaded another country and killed tons of people there? A genocide?
And no, US is not making Turkish people taking an honest look at their history, it just makes them more anti-american.
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| 138. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 11:11 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting teaschip1: Why is it significant whether the US government “condemns†the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians?
It is significant because to this day, while most of the rest of the world acknowledges the historical truth of the Armenian Genocide, Turkey continues to deny that it happened. Turkish Penal Code Section 301 actually makes it a crime in Turkey to discuss the murders of the Armenians as an “insult to Turkishness.â€
Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was recently gunned down in the street by a nationalistic Turk. Before his death he was prosecuted under section 301 for writing about the Armenian Genocide. His son, as well, was just prosecuted under that same law for publishing some of his father’s writings on the Genocide. You cannot turn a blind eye to a nation that refuses to admit a horrific period of its past.
Denial is the last and final stage of Genocide. To allow a country such as Turkey to rewrite history and deny the truth on a matter of such great magnitude is to allow those who would commit atrocities in places like Darfur to believe that they can get away with their evil. Hitler looked back at the Armenian Genocide and said, “Who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?â€
When a country such as the US sends a loud and clear statement that any Genocide, even one that occurred 90 years ago, is unacceptable, the world will listen and Turkey may just take an unpleasant yet honest look at its history.
To me the question is Turkey, really, what’s the problem with admitting it was a genocide? It’s not like Japan went under when it admitted the horrendous things they did to the Korean, Chinese, and Japanese “comfort women†from WWII. |
Teaschip - please tell me what do you know about this issue? And what makes you so convinced that it was a genocide? Don't you think that there's something wrong with the fact that politicians decide on these things? Have you heard of a big investigation going on to resolve this issue before they accepted it? - I haven't.
Yes, there is a serious problem with the penal code 301, but how does this confirm a historical event? Yes, there is this nationalistic attitude among Turkish people, and I wouldn't necessarily believe what the mainstream theory on this topic is, but why does that imply that the other mainstream side is flawless? Why do you automatically believe the other story?
And as far as US sending a message... sorry, but it's not a good message. It says more about how the US is a hypocrite judging others and invading other countries themselves. I mean, how would you call it if one country invaded another country and killed tons of people there? A genocide?
And no, US is not making Turkish people taking an honest look at their history, it just makes them more anti-american. |
Maybe you overlooked my quote. "Come one for God’s sake.. we’re talking about a genocide here! Put politics aside and take the humanistic step. When is it gonna be a good time to recognize the genocide one wonders? This has been going on for years. It’s never a good time?"
But if you insist on including politics, this is nothing new for America. Actually the US was probably the only ally after WWI that gave any meaningful support to Armenians after the Genocide. Both Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt condemned the Genocide (they called it “planned extermination of Armenians†back then), Americans sent millions of dollars in aid to the surviving Armenians, and President Wilson pledged that the US would serve as the protector of the newly established Armenian Republic (which at the time would include the devastated areas of Turkish Armenia as well). In, later decades the US reversed its policy, giving in to Turkish pressures, which continues to this day.
Armenian-Americans have been trying to get such a resolution passed for decades. Its never “the right time.†During the Cold War the excuse was that Turkey had a key strategic location. Then it was Gulf War I, now Gulf War II.
Does it make a more anti-american presense in Turkey? Not anymore than there already exisists.
There is a big differerence between massacre and genocide. Genocide is the governments policy of complete elimination of a certain )in this case ethnic) group of people. The killings which happened during WWI were NOT a genocide. massacre, perhaps.
I may just want to add, this is my opinion based on research and books I have read. Not having a vested interest in either side, I formed this from reading both parties views. I never claimed to be a historian, but we are free to give our opinions here, correct? This has no impact on how I feel about Turkey or it's people. You cannot make people pay for what their ancestors did.
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| 139. |
16 Oct 2007 Tue 11:42 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: The Turkish men I know, when I mentioned wanting to visit Greece commented "Why would you want to visit Greece, blah blah blah. They didn't seem to fond of their neighbor, in my opinion. |
As another Turkish man you should visit Greece...i was there and i loved it 
also i visited Serbia, you should visit it too
well my guess is that you just meet with the wrong Turkish men hehehe...
ah ah... they still talk about past and try to dictate things... Turkey should just ignore this... and try to have good both economical and social relations with its neighbour... then nobody can easily try to put their nose into our relations...
wish i was the president... ah ah...
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| 140. |
17 Oct 2007 Wed 12:08 am |
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Quoting SuiGeneris:
wish i was the president... ah ah... |
ah ah 
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