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Role of the Polish in Holocaust; Why blame only the Germans?
(23 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
[1] 2 3
1.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 09:34 am

The article provides a good insight to the barbaric atrocities against the Jews carried out by the Polish during the holacaust. Why doesn`t Poland recognize the genocide they commited, and why can't the Polish handle responsibility for their mistakes?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5037/is_/ai_n18271175

2.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 12:35 pm

Why blame the Germans? Well, for one thing they lost the bloody war

But, seriously, if you had read more than one article about it, you'd know he truth. The Jedwabne discussion was fierce a few years ago in Poland after T. Gross's book titled Neighbours. Our Institute of National Memory went through the files again and, just to quote some main points after Wikipedia (the Polish version is more elaborate than the English one):
- the overall number of victims was about 340 basing on exhumation in 2001(so it's hard to speak of genocide)
- the murder is assumed to be provoked by Nazists although carried out by the Polish citizens of Jedwabne (don't forget it happened in 1941 - at the times of WW II)
- after the end of WW II an investigation was conducted. In result 1 person was sentenced to death for murder, 9 for helping in murder and 12 were acquitted

also, saying that Poles don't find themselves responsible is a lie, in 2001, during the 60th anniversary of Jedwabne massacre, our president apologised for this sad event in the presence of Israeli president.

The fact that terrible things happen throughout history doesn't mean all governments lie about them and try to claim they never happened.

3.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 12:48 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Why blame the Germans? Well, for one thing they lost the bloody war

But, seriously, if you had read more than one article about it, you'd know he truth. The Jedwabne discussion was fierce a few years ago in Poland after T. Gross's book titled Neighbours. Our Institute of National Memory went through the files again and, just to quote some main points after Wikipedia (the Polish version is more elaborate than the English one):
- the overall number of victims was about 340 basing on exhumation in 2001(so it's hard to speak of genocide)
- the murder is assumed to be provoked by Nazists although carried out by the Polish citizens of Jedwabne (don't forget it happened in 1941 - at the times of WW II)
- after the end of WW II an investigation was conducted. In result 1 person was sentenced to death for murder, 9 for helping in murder and 12 were acquitted

also, saying that Poles don't find themselves responsible is a lie, in 2001, during the 60th anniversary of Jedwabne massacre, our president apologised for this sad event in the presence of Israeli president.

The fact that terrible things happen throughout history doesn't mean all governments lie about them and try to claim they never happened.



There isn`t a minimum death number requirement for a genocide. and I don`t think anybody would care whether or not your president Mr Dobrowski with yellow boots apologised for what happened, since this is not a genocide recognition.

Give them land, pay compensation, acknowledge the genocide you carried out in the whole world, make sure it`s in your constitution and all the text books, encyclopedias and so on. That is what recognition is.

4.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 01:01 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:


There isn`t a minimum death number requirement for a genocide. and I don`t think anybody would care whether or not your president Mr Dobrowski with yellow boots apologised for what happened, since this is not a genocide recognition.

Give them land, pay compensation, acknowledge the genocide you carried out in the whole world, make sure it`s in all the text books, encyclopedias and so on. That is what recognition is.



It's Kwasniewski, not Dabrowski (where did you get our 18th century general name from? lol) and what is it with yellow boots?

Jews do get their possession that were taken away during war times back to the great disappointment of Poles who are getting kicked out from their homes, and there are many trials against the Polish government for war crimes. Personally I can't see any justice in Poland paying Jews for what Germans did to both Jews and Poles (in case you don't know millions of Poles died - many of them giving shelter to Jewish neighbours or strangers).

Jedwabne Massacre was not genocide as it doesn't meet the criteria for it. It was a massacre and it is called like this. Its purpose was not to annihilate Jews from that region but to show obedience to Germans who'd otherwise killed Poles. True, it is sad, people (10 of them) would rather burn 300 other people than let their families be murdered.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that Poland apologised for it although it didn't have to as it was in the curse of war, not an incident that happened as an individual action inspired by government against other ethnicity. If a group of people makes a choice to kill to avoid being killed, it's hardly genocide. It's low and you may consider it morally wrong, but it's survival of the fittest...

5.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 01:04 pm

Moreover, even Jews don't blame us for Jedwabne and don't consider it genocide. The article you quoted is from 2001 and it's way past up-to-date lol

6.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 27 Apr 2008 Sun 01:20 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

Quoting tamikidakika:


There isn`t a minimum death number requirement for a genocide. and I don`t think anybody would care whether or not your president Mr Dobrowski with yellow boots apologised for what happened, since this is not a genocide recognition.

Give them land, pay compensation, acknowledge the genocide you carried out in the whole world, make sure it`s in all the text books, encyclopedias and so on. That is what recognition is.



It's Kwasniewski, not Dabrowski (where did you get our 18th century general name from? lol) and what is it with yellow boots?

Jews do get their possession that were taken away during war times back to the great disappointment of Poles who are getting kicked out from their homes, and there are many trials against the Polish government for war crimes. Personally I can't see any justice in Poland paying Jews for what Germans did to both Jews and Poles (in case you don't know millions of Poles died - many of them giving shelter to Jewish neighbours or strangers).

Jedwabne Massacre was not genocide as it doesn't meet the criteria for it. It was a massacre and it is called like this. Its purpose was not to annihilate Jews from that region but to show obedience to Germans who'd otherwise killed Poles. True, it is sad, people (10 of them) would rather burn 300 other people than let their families be murdered.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that Poland apologised for it although it didn't have to as it was in the curse of war, not an incident that happened as an individual action inspired by government against other ethnicity. If a group of people makes a choice to kill to avoid being killed, it's hardly genocide. It's low and you may consider it morally wrong, but it's survival of the fittest...



I didn`t know it was a common name in Poland (like john Doe). This is in fact a name that Mehmet Ali Erbil (an unclassy and clownish comedian) would use constantly for mockery as it sounds very funny in Turkish. as for the "(smn with) yellow boots" it`s an idiom in Turkish that refers to smn that we don`t know/recognize or would care about. The original form is "Sari cizmeli Mehmet Aga".

But it`s funny how you defend yourself by arguing it doesn`t meet the criteria for a genocide, because when it comes to accusing Turks of a genocide you never recognize those criteria.


7.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 28 Apr 2008 Mon 12:23 am

Thanks for explaining the yellow boots thing and the reason of making fun of our president's name. I don't feel offended by it by the way, in case you wondered. However, I bet you would eat me alive if I mentioned the father of Turkish Republic Ali Baba Ataturk (Ali Baba is a common name for Turkish people in Poland).

But I wasn't going to comment on your lack of manners. I wrongfully assumed that since you write about a subject, you care about it. Now I see you started it not to learn about it but to find a comparison between Turks and Poles as far as genocide is concerned. I do feel sorry for you as no matter how you try, burning 300 Jews in a barn has nothing to do with uprooting Kurds, forbidding them to speak in their own language or name their children the way they want, not to mention the government policy to claim there are no Kurds, just mountain Turks.

If you can draw a pararel between death, tragic as it was, of 300 people that was apologised for and trying to annihilate a nation then there's something wrong with your spacial perception. Try harder

8.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 28 Apr 2008 Mon 04:02 am

Quoting Daydreamer:

Thanks for explaining the yellow boots thing and the reason of making fun of our president's name. I don't feel offended by it by the way, in case you wondered. However, I bet you would eat me alive if I mentioned the father of Turkish Republic Ali Baba Ataturk (Ali Baba is a common name for Turkish people in Poland).

But I wasn't going to comment on your lack of manners. I wrongfully assumed that since you write about a subject, you care about it. Now I see you started it not to learn about it but to find a comparison between Turks and Poles as far as genocide is concerned. I do feel sorry for you as no matter how you try, burning 300 Jews in a barn has nothing to do with uprooting Kurds, forbidding them to speak in their own language or name their children the way they want, not to mention the government policy to claim there are no Kurds, just mountain Turks.

If you can draw a pararel between death, tragic as it was, of 300 people that was apologised for and trying to annihilate a nation then there's something wrong with your spacial perception. Try harder





I don`t make an effort to be offensive, I`m just being honest and informative. Call whoever you want "Ali Baba", I wouldn`t be even a little concerned or offended.

as for the "Kurdish genocide" you newly invented, I would expect you to put forth better arguments than this. You know that, It`s not banned to speak Kurdish so do I. You know that there is not such a government claim stating that Kurds are mountain Turks, so do I.

So who are you trying to trick? You could make your fellow countrymen believe in this crap for sure, but you just sound like a pkk propogandist when you try to sell us this kind of misinformation. Get over it.


Btw, how do you feel about the Iraqi genocide your soldiers have been carrying out with their American masters? Do you congragulate them for the each Iraqi kid (or "underaged Muslim terrorist" in your terms, in case you don`t know what I`m referring to) they kill for example?


9.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 28 Apr 2008 Mon 10:38 am

Quoting tamikidakika:


I don`t make an effort to be offensive, I`m just being honest and informative.



If you consider calling other country presidents after a classless comedian being honest an informative then you certainly were lol

Quote:

as for the "Kurdish genocide" you newly invented, I would expect you to put forth better arguments than this. You know that, It`s not banned to speak Kurdish so do I. You know that there is not such a government claim stating that Kurds are mountain Turks, so do I.



Actually I used the word genocide here only in response to your accusations of me accusing Turkey of genocide. I don't recall commenting on anything but the Kurdish issue so I reckoned that what you meant by those accusations.

Yes, I know Kurdish is not banned anymore. But it was, just as Kurds were considered 'Mountain Turks' by your government. We were discussing past issues and I thought it was clear.

Quote:

So who are you trying to trick? You could make your fellow countrymen believe in this crap for sure, but you just sound like a pkk propogandist when you try to sell us this kind of misinformation. Get over it.



And it's the same story over and over again - write that Turks are not very fair to Kurds and you'll end up being accused of supporting terrorist organisations. I have written many times in this site that I am against it and no matter how much you try, you won't make me one. If you consider things black or white only, then give yourself a break, draw a few deep breaths and calm down. The world is never black or white. People who consider Turkish policy towards Kurds unjust are not necessarily PKK supporters. I don't know anyone in this site who would be one! It's just you and 2 other people who accuse people of it.



Quote:

Btw, how do you feel about the Iraqi genocide your soldiers have been carrying out with their American masters? Do you congragulate them for the each Iraqi kid (or "underaged Muslim terrorist" in your terms, in case you don`t know what I`m referring to) they kill for example?



I'm glad you asked this question. Like I said many times, I am against US intervention in Iraq. And, yes, I call it an act of attack, not defence. I disagree with our government sending our boys on this war.

Congratulate for killing each Iraqi kid? Please! How did you come up with this idea? Grow up already. That we see faults in Turkish government doesn't mean we're pro-murder. That's a very weak line of reasoning. I'd say you're too full of hate towards everyone who disagrees with you that you can't be objective.

You started an argument basing on an article from 2001 that had already been dealt with. The matter is solved and closed. I informed you about the result of an investigation and you still wouldn't take logical and truthful explanation. I'm sorry. I know you wanted to see that all governments are like yours but it's not true. If you want to insult Poles, show our mentality. Don't go into things that are easy to prove you wrong. proven wrong you start accusing me of supporting PKK and killing children. Now, that's way NOT logical and has nothing to do with Jedwabne Massacre.

10.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 28 Apr 2008 Mon 12:05 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:


Yes, I know Kurdish is not banned anymore. But it was, just as Kurds were considered 'Mountain Turks' by your government. We were discussing past issues and I thought it was clear.



I have never heard an official saying Kurds are mountain Turks. Never have there been such a statement in the text books either. Now if you still think that the government considered them like that in the past, I can`t change your opinion. I can say that the American government considers the Iraqis animals, and guess what, no one can refute this idea.

And if we`re discussing the past issues, why don`t we still accuse America of slavery, as it did happen in the past, or why don`t we talk about how the Kurds massacred tens of thousands of Alevi Turkmen at the time of Yavuz? it did happen.

Quote:

And it's the same story over and over again - write that Turks are not very fair to Kurds and you'll end up being accused of supporting terrorist organisations. I have written many times in this site that I am against it and no matter how much you try, you won't make me one. If you consider things black or white only, then give yourself a break, draw a few deep breaths and calm down. The world is never black or white. People who consider Turkish policy towards Kurds unjust are not necessarily PKK supporters. I don't know anyone in this site who would be one! It's just you and 2 other people who accuse people of it.



I didn`t accuse you of being a pkk supporter, but whoever says that Kurdish is banned in Turkey simply sounds like a pkk propagandist as it is pure lie and misionformation. You didn`t say that it was a past issue in your first post. I don`t know what happened in the past. I`m 21 yrs old, and I have never witnessed those who have spoken Kurdish in public being arrested or dumped into the midnight express jail before in my life time.(and i live in a place that is mostly popullated by Kurds)

why do you accuse me of this thing, but not Americans of slavery, or your people of the crusader terrorism if they are all past issues?

If we were to deal with the past issues this much, I would have very nice reasons to kill some Kurds, as they did this to my ancestors some 500 hundred years ago.



Quote:


I'm glad you asked this question. Like I said many times, I am against US intervention in Iraq. And, yes, I call it an act of attack, not defence. I disagree with our government sending our boys on this war.

Congratulate for killing each Iraqi kid? Please! How did you come up with this idea? Grow up already. That we see faults in Turkish government doesn't mean we're pro-murder. That's a very weak line of reasoning. I'd say you're too full of hate towards everyone who disagrees with you that you can't be objective.

You started an argument basing on an article from 2001 that had already been dealt with. The matter is solved and closed. I informed you about the result of an investigation and you still wouldn't take logical and truthful explanation. I'm sorry. I know you wanted to see that all governments are like yours but it's not true. If you want to insult Poles, show our mentality. Don't go into things that are easy to prove you wrong. proven wrong you start accusing me of supporting PKK and killing children. Now, that's way NOT logical and has nothing to do with Jedwabne Massacre.




Ok then the only responsible for the 600,000 murdered Iraqi civilians is the American troops, since the Poles are there for just minor tasks like cooking for the Americans, cleaning their dirty clothes, entertaining them telling Polish jokes etc. Swallow it or not, call it a genocide or not, that doesn`t change the crimes commited in Iraq and your government is a part of that crime.


I`m not trying to insult Poles, why would I? I don`t even know where Poland is exactly. I`m just trying to show how you are being unfair when accusing the others of silly things.

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