Next time you ask where the moderate Muslims are, be careful, you may be a Colonialist â„¢. In case you had the niggling feeling that "Those women who voluntarily choose the veil are different. They seek to provoke, to intimidate," put it on pause. Be doubly careful if the following sounds like having a ring of truth:
" Muslim women who veil in Western societies violate all these norms. They are being immodest and invasive. They will succeed only in creating hostility. To every woman who decides to walk out the door looking like Batman and then complains of being ridiculed, I say, you are inviting it. Bear it or shed it."
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2007/08/be_careful_you_just_might_be_a_colonialist.php


Muslim-Refusnik= Young Canadian Muslim woman Irshad Manji leds discussion groups

There is some truth to that article. I know there are so many different reasons why women wear a veil. But what I find peculiar is if they are doing it out of some type of respect for their husband etc.not to draw attention to other men. How come I see so many of them wear gobs of makeup?

I find it laughable, when they walk around London like it. Talk about stand out like a sore thumb!

I just think Burqa is not necessary... it is of course a personal choice, but Islam doesnt force it, so it's up to the woman (or to her husband and family ) Anyway... I still believe that people should wear whatever they want anywhere of the world and it shouldnt cause to look at these people as if they were Aliens or something else... But I'm afraid, that's never gonna happen

Camel taxies, Tents, Desert, burqa, g-string and turkey. write understandable sentences from these if u want enjoy

this is better than discussing burqa.

see Islam fashion and Iranian women
http://jadi.civiblog.org/blog/women

http://www.toeradio.org/_Thong-&-Burqa.jpg

http://jadi.civiblog.org/_photos/monalisa_has_chador.jpg


islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/04/great-cartoon.html

İ really try to understand what is the West issue with Muslims and Hijab,but i fail !
What ?!
Do you hate to see the women who are wearing hijab walking around you?!
Do they harm you or your communities any way by what they wear ?!
Some people covering THEİR hairs...what has got it to do with you ?!

Why should it be material to criticism,to make jokes and have fun on our expenses ?!
Because we dont dress up like you ?!
You dont dress up like us,so should you be material to our jokes also ?!
We wear it because its part of our believes,or we wear it because its part of our traditions,or we wear it even to avoid sun burns...we wear it for ANY reason!
HECK its OUR business NOT yours !
We dont ask you to wear it...

So,WHAT İS YOUR PROBLEM?!

I dont care what ppl wear everybody has own life style.

from a women point of view I don't care what people wear, but its about equality and freedom of choice
why should women cover up and men dont
in some countries its a mans world

my English gets worse the more I drink
put down the wine and walk away from the pc

thank you for your welcome
and I thought as a member of this site I was encouraged to share my views
so you say its none of my buisness but I do have an opinion which is
live and let live to each their own
as long as they have freedom of choice
I respect all cultures and religions
but I can't help but feel a degree of inequality about this topic
and if some Turkish women want to post their opinions which differ to mine then I stand corrected
I dont mean to offend just speaking my mind

Thank you
I am here to learn and open minded

I agree with Canli and Cat - everybody should be wearing what they want. I know in Egypt I can wear tops and shorts, but what Islamic countries that don't live off tourism? Will I be free to wear my top and shorts there as well?

In Western countries you're free to wear your burkas and hijabs. We, Western women are not free to do it in yours so where's the justice?

As for what I mind about covering yourself up is when at the border control, covered women try to "protect" their right to stay covered. What about my right to feel safe in my country? How can I know who's trying to get in?

I once was in Egypt wearing loose, long-sleeved T-shirts and almost baggy trousers, so no fitform jeans that made my body clear to see. But in just 1 week I got 8 times remarks like 'nice boobs, nice bum, want to sleep with me'. And twice a guy was trying to grab me at my breasts - they didn't succeed, I gave them a punch with my elbow. So what about 'not beeing seen as an object'? What about 'wearing whatever you want'?

Good point Saskia. Even though women in the west wear less clothes than those in the east, we don't get so many rude remarks here as we do there. I never wear very provocative clothes but walking the streets in Turkey was sometimes terrible. I've heard things get harder in Egypt where you may get physically harassed if you don't look like a giant bag.

Anyway, talking about tolerance. You can't beat the fact that even declared Catholic countries like Vatican won't prohibit you from wearing a burka. Declared Muslim countries (and I'm not dividing them into the ones having the right or wrong interpretation of Quran as I'm sure if you asked an Iraqi or an Afghan who's right, he'd tell you he was) would not. That's why I find it strange to hear that the west is discriminating Muslims by not permitting women to wear burka. No country bans it. Sure, you may get weird looks or comments but it is because of the terrorists who played the Islam card. I'm sure if there was a series of attacks by bleach blondes in Muslim countries, all blondes would be treated with suspicion.

It makes the human being 'unpersonal' to wear such a thing. You take away all that makes a humanbeing look like a humanbeing. You take away all that makes a person unique, you make it look like all human are the same.

I don't agree you should be able to wear whatever you want when ever you want. I think there is a time and place when certain attire is appropriate and when it's not. It's usually common sense, however a number of people don't understand logic. It's the "I don't give a shit attitude" that propells attention.

If people actually understood that appearance and first impressions were not a choice but human instinct they would realize this doesn't eliminate or restrict their freedom to express. Quite the opposite..

What impression would you have of a female showing up in a skimpy, clubing outfit to a funeral or to church? What would be your instinct or impression of them?

I also have a hard time believing a burka is appropriate on the other hand. It's another mechanism to propell attention. If you choose to wear it, be prepared for the crude remarks, that goes along with it.

A friend of mine whose husband was in the USAF during the 1st Gulf war and they were posted there, she told me you would be amazed at what the women wear under the Burka.

To be honest, the hijab picture you posted, is exactly the type of 'modest muslim woman' that I cant stand. You put the headscarf because God orders you to do so and he/she does so with a specific reason. Then, you cover your head, buy some nice tight long skirt that makes your hips come out nicely, you put on some make-up and you are ready to go!

(I am aware of the generalisation of this statement, but it is a fact there is a big statement in the way you put on your headscarf)

Hijab is the order not burka
Burka is when you cover your face also,yes ?
We call it niqab
İts not ordered in quran

Thanks for the historical and social context Canli. I could have guessed the desert reason but I've never thought of Mohammed's wives. The hijab you posted was nice. I remember seeing such colourful scarves in Turkey as well. It looks nothing like burkas.

Yeah, I find burka funny. As funny and ridiculous as wearing shorts so short that your buttocks are showing, 15 cm high heels and a top barely covering your nipples. these are two extremes - one the bag type, the other the hooker type. Of course the fact that I find it amusing doesn't mean so should everybody. If some people wear burka because they like it, it's their choice. The same in the other case.

I've heard about women wearing sexy underwear under burka, my dad's friend were on a mission in Libya. I also know what was the only way soldiers could have sex with the women there A friend of mine who does a lot of travelling, told me how it amazed him that women who cover their whole face but the eyes, would spend hours doing make-up. He laughed that women are vain regardless of where they live

I can't imagine wearing burka, but I wouldn't be seen showing everything in the street. I don't have a problem undressing on a beach but I agree with Teas that dress code is necessary. You can't go around wearing a bikini...

I dont know the history of burqa specifically but women putting veil on their head is not islamic historically.
I think it is dated back to Assyrians originally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil
And according to historians, it was used to distinguish the women, who were doing the prostitution (and apparently, they were considered doing a good a community service at the time), then other lower women who were not providing the service.
I think it was the case 5000 years ago.
And than everybody agrees that veiling was the tradition came to islam from jews..
So it is not a pure islamic thing basically..

I want to say smthng about equality of man and woman.
We say that in East woman r nt equal to a man but how it can be at all everywhere?? Look! Just imagine common London street and two people (man and woman) walking down it. Man is wearing shoes, shorts and nothing more on the top. Near by him woman- wearing the same.. on top - nothing more.. So how u think?? do people around look to them equally?? so , i think no. All would judge woman that she isnt properly dressed. How can we talk about equality of two different genders? they ll never be equal cos they have different anatomy, wich dictates how to dress. In islam modesty is much more higher. So dressing of women r too so much modest.

I don't find burka's laughable...they are VERY scary!!!!

I work in a tourist area, and amid all the brightly coloured clothes, it can be very scary to see someone walking towards you dressed as Darth Vader!!!

It is also very hard to warm to someone when you can't see their face. Sinister....

DUBAI (AlArabiya.net)

A 50-year-old Saudi woman asked for divorce after her husband lifted her face veil while she was sleeping, local press reported.

For 30 years, the wife said she never showed her face to her husband in conformity with the tradition of her native village near the south western Saudi city of Khamis Mushayt.

'After all these years, he tries to commit such a big mistake,' the wife told Saudi newspaper Al-Riyadh, after she left the house in total disbelief.

She said the husband apologized and promised never to do it again.

This is not the first case of husbands who have not seen their wives' faces in decades.

In the past Al Arabiya has reported the case of Ali al-Qahtani, whose wife had been wearing the face veil for the entire ten years of their marrage. When he tried to take it off, she threatened to leave and only decided to stay after he swore never to try again.

Hassan Al-Atibi threatened to marry another woman if his wife didn't show him her face. The woman nominated one of her friends who doesn't observe this tradition as a possible new wife for him, saying this would be better than her showing her face.

And neither the husband or children of Om Rabea al-Gahdaray, 70, have ever seen her face. Al-Gahdaray says it is a family tradition, also followed by mother and sisters, which her husband accepted and never tried to change.

When asked how she could have kids without her husband ever seeing her face, she replied: 'Marriage is about love, not faces.'

For privacy and a little sense of freedom, Saudi youths often go out to the desert. So when I wanted to talk to some young men, a friend suggested we drive outside of Riyadh. At the edge of the city, I sat with the friend and a female Egyptian journalist I was traveling with to talk to six Saudi men, ages 19 to 26. They all worked for the Saudi military.

The sun was setting as a shadow began to blanket the rolling sand dunes. Dry wood crackled on a bright orange fire, a blackened coffee pot sat by the glowing coals and sweet dates, sticky to the touch, were passed around. It was a beautiful, peaceful scene, soon to be interrupted.

“You’re reckless,'’ one of the young men said to me.

He said that it was dangerous to drive into the desert with a group of Saudi men we did not know well. He said we were lucky to have been invited by someone who was honest and trustworthy. Otherwise he said, we might have been attacked.

“The way a Saudi would think is ‘What is this girl doing here alone?’ If you are with a man, you better be his sister or his wife.”

That was Fahd’s explanation. He was 26 years old. He was seated on one side of the fire, the glow of the flames dancing across his face.

“Quiet, you are scaring them,'’ said the friend who took us to the desert.

Perhaps this was a bit of male bonding, of young guys showing off to the foreigners. But the tone was casual, the looks casual, the whole conversation amazingly casual. The Egyptian woman asked how he would treat us if we had not been introduced by our friend.

“What would you do if we were with someone else?'’ she asked.

“I would get rid of him and try something with you,'’ he replied. “Not rape, I would try to do something, to get you to do something.”

“And if I said no?” she asked.

“Then I would rape you.”

That was it. None of the other young men seemed surprised, or sounded an objection. Would he really do it? Probably not. And neither would the other young men there, the ones who quietly nodded. But no one said “just kidding.” What they said was that this was a serious possibility we needed to be aware of. They acknowledged that rape was against their religion, but as a sin, they put it in the same category as a woman working with a man in the desert trying to understand young Saudi men.

‘Ninety percent of Saudis would think it is not right,'’ Fahd said. “An Egyptian girl with an American man, or a girl alone, what is she doing here?”

News flash!! (So don´t ask for my opinion...   )

In the Netherlands it will be prohibited to wear a burka or niqaab at primary or secondary schools. That statement the Minister of Education, Ronald Plasterk, made yesterday. It means no pupil, student, teacher, cleaning woman, other staff member or mother is allowed to wear it while studying/working at school grounds or while bringing/picking up her kid. Reason? Communication is not possible with someone you can´t see the expressions of her face and communication is one of the most important things in education, according to the Minister. The rule will not be applied at highschools because students there are adults and they can choose what they want to wear nor they are influencing youngsters as they might do on primary or secondary schools.

Don´t ask for a news flash as the following is my personal comment

That sounds fair enough. As I understand hijab is allowed, only the two that cover the face, not hair only are banned? Pretty sensible - I´m sure schools wouldn´t allow anyone wearing balaclava so why should alike things be exempt.

The balaclava thing just reminded me that ´hoodies´ are banned in Lakeside Shopping Centre in Essex (and probably in others as well) because they hide faces from security cameras - presumably making it easier to get away with shoplifting!

this should be marked in the calender as a national holiday when the government has done something reasonable!

Indeed, hijab and ghimaar are still allowed, only the ones that cover the face are prohibited from now on.

 Although no laws have been passed and never will in the UK (as we are so politically correct!), a classroom assistant was banned from wearing the Burka at school as it frightened the children.  If I remember correctly she was sacked for refusing, and then took it to the unions who fought her case.  I tried to find the story but couldn´t.

Another story with the Burka being used as a disgiuse for a potential suicide bomber escaping UK after the bomb blasts in London.

Freedom of choice, here is an article about the Burqa from the view point of a devout Muslim lady:

Burka Vs Bikini - The Debauchery Of American Womanhood On my wall, I have a picture of a Muslim woman shrouded in a burka. Beside it is a picture of an American beauty contestant, wearing nothing but a bikini. One woman is totally hidden from the public; the other is totally exposed. These two extremes say a great deal about the clash of so-called "civilizations." The role of woman is at the heart of any culture. Apart from stealing Arab oil, the impending war in the Middle East is about stripping Arabs of their religion and culture, exchanging the burka for a bikini. I am not an expert on the condition of Muslim women and I love feminine beauty too much to advocate the burka here. But I am defending some of the values that the burka represents for me. For me, the burka represents a woman´s consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her. It affirms the privacy, exclusivity and importance of the domestic sphere. The Muslim woman´s focus is her home, the "nest" where her children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband. In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time. In America, the cultural measure of a woman´s value is her sex appeal. (As this asset depreciates quickly, she is neurotically obsessed with appearance and plagued by weight problems.) As an adolescent, her role model is Britney Spears, a singer whose act approximates a strip tease. From Britney, she learns that she will be loved only if she gives sex. Thus, she learns to "hook up" rather than to demand patient courtship and true love. As a result, dozens of males know her before her husband does. She loses her innocence, which is a part of her charm. She becomes hardened and calculating. Unable to love, she is unfit to receive her husband´s seed. The feminine personality is founded on the emotional relationship between mother and baby. It is based on nurturing and self-sacrifice. Masculine nature is founded on the relationship between hunter and prey. It is based on aggression and reason. Feminism teaches woman that feminine nature has resulted in "oppression" and that she should convert to male behavior instead. The result: a confused and aggressive woman with a large chip on her shoulder, unfit to become a wife or mother. http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8995

It should read: Burka vs Bikini -  which form of patriarchy do you prefer?

In an ideal world both should be an uninfluenced choice, but in the world that we live in today, they fit in the patriarchal structure and serve their clearly defined purpose there. It is naive and ignorant to oppose them to each other, as if one represented freedom and the other didn´t.

More insights  on the same subject:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/palestine.htm

´m not sure about the US but here in Ireland, like in Poland, bikini is not allowed at schools. The same for public offices. Why should it be allowed to cover your face and prohibited to uncover your private parts? Everything cannot be subjct to personal choice. You may justify burka with religion, what if I claim to be a devoted nudist and demand my right to go to work or walk around the town naked? Social rules must be obeyed, especially if they are crucial to our safety - LIR´s example of suicide bomber. The same goes for drug peddlers and other criminalos, who can guarantee that a covered person is not really a criminal hiding his/her identity?

Can we make a deal? Muslim women in niqaab and others (not me!!!) naked? In the same school/office/shop of course....  

 I can´t wait to see thehandsom´s comment to this! 

Why do people go to such extremes? Why do you compare veiling to bikini?

How many non-muslim women/girls wear bikini to school/work? Do most of them walk in bikini in everyday life like muslimahs walk in their coverings?

 Of course, all bad (bet, bed, bat) western women wear daily only their bikini, isn´t it?

What a paradise!

 Yes, I am wearing a white thong bikini right now in my office.  Don´t you wear yours everyday, Trudy???

 Which of the 34 I own?

 Is that your idea of paradise?

 But do you have matching spike heal shoes to go with all 34??? 

 Of course. Plus 34 matching colours of nail polish.

Yes, I would call it a Bikini Section of paradise. And the top section would be called Topless!

hahahaahahah!!! This thread is hilarious!!! Especially the part about you have no idea about what women wear under burqas!!!!! Yes you dont!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In Riyadh, lol, in the malls, at prayer time, all the stores close, and all the men go to prayer, and then the women ,( youre gonna laugh so hard!!)as I said mostsaudis in riyadh are really $$$$$$$ so under the burqas theyre wearing hot designer dresses and then they, well, they open the burqas whle all th men are going to rayer, and like you said lus all the makeup they put, and they always bring their bangs out of their scarves and they ahve them died like this bombshelll blonde and its a sight to see!!! Really it´s a sight to see!!!!But about hijab thing i mean it doesnt have to be burqa and stuff i mean my friend she wars hijab but she wears a mini skirt with leggings under it , whatever everybody ahs their own way, and about men in egypt,, really, i have no idea how u could be wearing that and smbdy harrases u, its probbaly cause theys aw you a fioreigner like our teachers at school, the boys say rallyu funny stuff but the teachers know theyre kidding but once a really big fight hapened and then nobody does it anymore lol whatever, anyway here  in egypt its really normal to see everything, i dunno i mean me and my friends were always like after the latest fashion and stuff lol, but i dunno, anyway....

Funny thread!!

 My father lived in Saudi Arabia for a few years.  I used to go and spend my summer breaks with him.  I will never forget getting on a plane in Saudi with a bunch of women in a burkas and getting off with a bunch of women who looked like they just stepped off the pages of Vogue.  

If you have read ´Nine parts of desire, the hidden world of Islamic women´ by Geraldine Brooks you know. She tells about party´s with very well dressed women, about exciting women´s underwear, make-up, love stories etc. Nice book!

No i sware Riyadh was freaky!!! I mean the women looked like they had on inch deep layer of makeup on their faces I SWARE! Not to mention the chanel sunglasses etc etc etc!!!!!!  And ive never personally been to a Saudi wedding but my mom has, and they have the ;addies alone and the men a,lon(freaky right?? how is it even a wedding??? Ive always imagine like atleast the bride and groom at leats let them hold hands, so id imagine like they ahd za wall between the man and the women and theer´d be a hole from the bride to put her hand through ) But my mom said that the women wear whatever they want and there are all these again designer dresses that are REALLY hot!!!! and they ahve all these things in the wedding and that its really luxurious, and they do smthg that is so wierd they put so much white foundation on their faces that compared to their necks, therir necks ;ook black, its scary!! But they have like their own secret lives, oh and i havent mentioned their PALACES!! I sware I had a saudi friend her dad owned all these companies (oil ofcourse) ana a couple of production studios,a nd iw ent to their palace... My jaw dropped, it was ;ike  iw as atchng an actual MTV version of Cribs, really its jaw dropping,  they ahve french maids!!!!!! And when saudis go to like egypt and lebanon and jordan etc etc they take their burqas and everything off and you should see what theyre wearing!! But they dontr really go tot he point of mini skirt but theyre clothes are really fashionable, they only wear those things like traditionally not religious wise, and what theyd do when they come here is the prove fro that, their men are the crazy ones !!!!!

This book sounds intriguing, who would be willing to give more info of the contents of this book?

Doudi, here is your Saudi Wedding. The brides are covered, very different and very strange: