Maybe this thread should be re-titled "Personal Apology by theHandsom to TC for the December 2008 events"

 Or

"What could have been a good argument has now been reduced to a trivial thread and it is pointless to add anything other than a trivial post to it"

Sorry, bit of long title

I reposted my message containing HTML codes incorrectly interpreted by Internet Explorer and Firefox.

The error in question formed like this:

1- typed the message with the forum´s standard editor

2- copy-pasted to Word

3- on seeing HTML problems copy pasted to Notepad to get get rid of them

4- Used Safari Internet Browser for posting the resulting text.

When viewed with Safari, TLC looks visually better, with easier-to-read fonts... The browser seems to correctly interpret everything no matter what. It is not the other way around unfortunately.

Thanks Vineyards   There still seem to be missing posts though - 5-9  - were any more of them yours?

Correction:  All posts are visible using Opera!

I couldn´t read them either using explorer or firefox. When I try it with Safari no problems whatsoever. I suggest you download a copy from Apple if you need to see them...

I am adding my post here..

btw.vineyards..I think html chars are  still in your post (at the bottom )

I have made it a principle that I should not side up with people just because they are my friends. When taking sides it is necessary to make  decisions based on facts. Some people rely on their instincts or beliefs in the absence of facts, I don’t think this works for critical decisions like the one we are talking about.

I would agree with what you are saying above but somehow, I can not relate with the topic..Did anybody say to you ´you should side up with people because they are your friends´ or ´believe in your instincts´ if you dont have the facts?

To me the Armenian cause is one such conflict about which everyone talks based on what they believe might have happened or according to their ethnic, religious orientations. As a result all kinds of claims and accusations keep flying in the air. Many of those are evidently biased arguments by virtue that they are consistent depending on which side they come from. I ´believe´ that some atrocities were committed since the (military) authority of the day considered the Armenian actions in the region as high-treason (on account that they sided up with invading Russian troops taking up arms against local Turks). This however is just a belief. I have no proof at hand.

Actually, they are not mystery really. And if you are still at the level of ´some Armenians and some Turks´ lost their lives and ´ah but we dont have and we can not have any reliable info. Then lets leave it is as it is´ I wont have any question..That is you..

Quote:

In the absence of facts, we are basing all our arguments on three major channels: Armenia, Turkey and Europe. Armenia and Turkey are the two sides. Therefore we can’t expect them to be very objective. I believe neither Turkey nor Armenia is telling the truth. As for Europe, only until ten or so years ago, they were openly supporting the PKK.  France, Germany, Sweden, Belgium and many other European countries opened up their doors to the terrorists. At that time, they were calling these people independence warriors fighting against a sovereign country with which they have strong economic and political ties. I believe this attitude of Europeans is a tell-tale evidence of how they regard Turkey - a potential threat to their well-being. 

Above is not telling the entire truth I believe. At goverment  level I dont think EU has supported terrorism.

But after 1980´s, people escaped from Turkey because of the military regime and of course EU opened their doors to those people. You can not blame the EU for this.. They will open their doors to anybody whose life is threatened anyway.

Then those people forming little communities in European countries, collecting money (secretly of course) and sending back to the organizations such as PKK was considered as EU sport for terrorism..

Turkey is expecting that EU should stop them. But why should they stop and how can they stop it?

If they try to shut those organisations and try to jail those people will be unthinkable because the entire country will question the merit of their democracy..They can not take these people to the police stations and beat the  confessions out of them. It is not like Turkey in EU.. You can not shut a political or non political organisation easily..

And it is not only for Kurds or Turks, you can see Tibetians protesting infront chinese consulate, Chechens collecting money for their cause, islam followers, pastafarians  etc..(actually, I know how it works in Turkey. A channel shows a kurdish demonstration in one EU countries and they are wearing red/yellow/green -pkk colours- and the entire coffee house attandents get agitated and start talking ´ah ah Europe supporting them; why are they not being arrested? blah blah´. And that somehow gets stuck as common knowledge as ´EU supporting terrorism´. Well but demonstration is not an illigal thing in EU!! why would they be arrested for that?)  

Quote:

A number of white-collars in this country have developed a ridiculous idea. It goes like this: There is democracy in the West, these people know everything right. We need to act and think exactly like them if we want to get rid of our primitive ways. This is indeed a proper policy for a vassal state and anyone defending it must be going through a serious identity crisis. Anyone defending this did not understand the first thing about Ataturk´s principles. Both Europe and Turkey must be and are after their own interests, their own well-being and their own policies. We will be more civilized the day we begin to seek solutions inside the country not among instant solutions imported from elsewhere.

Excuse me but, is this the last defence mechanism of the statusquo?

It used to be ´not now or it is not the right time´ when we said ´This countyr needs freedom of speech, this country requires opening, this country should understand what a real democracy or freedom is, our people deserve better than this´.

Since when does democracy belong to a region such as West?

And do you think we should stop asking ´more freedom, democracy or freedom of speech´ because they are normal forms in the west?

What are things such as freedom, democracy and freedom of speech got to do with identity crisis?

And you are rejecting universal values such as liberties, freedom of speech, right to live etc, because they are the forms from west? And associate your ideas with the understanding of Ataturk (and his principles) who himself spent almost his entire time trying to westernise Turkey from tip to by adapting some of the laws from the west plus his revolutions? 

This topic was in the theindependent today:

http://www.independent.co.uk/ne..-armenians-1067066.html 

highlights:

.. Turkey´s most sensitive taboo is slowly melting away.

"My conscience does not accept the denial of the great catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915," the text prepared by the group reads. "I reject this injustice and ... empathise with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologise to them."

.. "Our concern is being able to look at ourselves in the mirror in the morning ... freeing ourselves by finally facing up to the past," said the political scientist Baskin Oran

However, nationalists... saying it is a national betrayal. Counter campaigns refusing to apologise have sprung up. The head of a nationalist party with 70 seats in parliament described the initiative as an example of the "frightening extent to which degeneracy and corrosion have spread".

what a surprise!!!

Publicly talking about what happened in 1915 remains a sensitive issue in Turkey. The Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk was prosecuted in 2005 for saying a million Armenians had died. In January 2007, the Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was gunned down by a nationalist teenager for advocating a more humane debate on the issue.

Yet, while almost every Turkish town has a street named after the chief organisers of the massacres, the taboo surrounding the Armenian issue is nowhere near as total as it was a decade ago. 

..the historian Halil Berktay,.. says, "the Turkish establishment position is crumbling."

And their website is open:

http://www.ozurdiliyoruz.com/default.aspx

"ozur diliyoruz"  translates as "we apologize"

what a lovely list, starting with one of my favorite novelist Adalet Aðaoðlu.

i guess its too late to apologize coz the ones who are responsible have gone or at least most of them.

They were the ones who used to live in the east among their Turkish neighbours in peace.

The were the people who were called Millet-i Sadýka (people to be relied on ) that their Turkish neighbours could rely on them and leave their goods to them when they were even  in Mekkah (Mekke) to become pilgrims.

Then one day (during the independence war), some whistled to their ears;"We´re about to divide the  Empire into many parts,if you want to have lands for you,too come and join us".

These words;the proposals affected some of the armenians and they joined the enemies of the empire unexpectedly.

This trick of the enemies worked on very well on the armenians living there(some foresaw the coming future,didn´t want to be on the side of the deceived and left the lands soon before the conflict began.

The rest took part on the side of the enemies and then they attacked the Turkish villagers;the Turkish villagers tried to defend themselves but the deceived neighbours of them until that time,now they were together with the other enemies;using their weapons and attacking afterwards,without thinking of men,women and babies-the babies.

It was not a genocide.There happened a war in that region just because of the deceived groups who were directed by the others.

Well...years passed after the independence war.Still,there are the ones living in Turkey using their own names or the Turkish names;businessmen,tailors,singers,actors...live in peace here.

When it comes to apologise,the side who has to apologize (if it is needed ) are the grandchildren of the deceived !An apology is not needed at the real,just their feeling shame of being the supporters of them is enough.

I think this might be considered as a necessary step for us (Turks) as well as Armenians..

We somehow have to come into terms with our past and clear our concience on the issues..

We have been LIED enough.

We need the truth..

(May be, at some stage we will need to change some of the names of our streets as well, as the names those murderers  are still all over the place)