It is not only the bad news about Turkey.

In fact I feel quite pleased when read the online papers in these days.

A petition initiated by a group of intellectuals, including professors Baskýn Oran and Ahmet Ýnsel, journalists Ali Bayramoðlu and Cengiz Aktar, personally apologizes for the events.

The group is asking other people to sign the petition, which reads as follows:

“I cannot conscientiously accept the indifference to the great disaster that Ottoman Armenians suffered in 1915, and its denial. I reject this injustice and acting of my own will, I share the feelings and pains of my Armenian brothers and sisters, and I apologize to them.”

...

Aytekin Yýldýz, ... “It is a good starting point, but not enough. Firstly, what do they mean by ‘great disaster’? Let’s name it, it is genocide. Secondly, the state has to apologize,” Yýldýz pointed out.

..

Historian Ayþe Hür said apologizing is the duty of those who were responsible for the act, or for those who share their arguments. "For me, all these events were the fault of Turkish nationalism flourishing at that time, and personally, I don’t identify with it, so I do not feel the need to apologize personally.”

Rest of the article.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=160701&bolum=101

I am sure Tamikidakika, Armegon, C++ will sign it as soon as it starts.

I will check if the foreigners are allowed to join as well and tell Aenigma to sign it too

This article appeared in Zaman. Zaman has the notoriority of being the relentless defenders of radical Islam in Turkey. They claim they have changed, matured and become more objective. Some might allude this to the experience they have gained over the years. I for my own my part tend the seek the primer between the two lips od a mullah who restructured the paper in line with a change of strategy that entails refraining from hardliner talk thus gaining the hearts of neo-republicanists, former leftists who have become identical to liberal capitalists for all intents and purposes. Many of these people are willing to question the fundamental aspects of the regime currently in place at the expense of its stability. I always remember this phrase: "Everything is the same under the sun." I refuse to believe the multimillion dollar hatred channel of the past can become a peace advocate.

As for the writer of this article. Almost 90% of her articles are about the Middle East, Ghazza, the Palestinean problem, Israel. In a country which has turned its face to the West both economically and financially, this woman keeps talking about the same matters over and over. Isn´t this  interesting?

I saw the article in : radikal  originally

You might be right a bout zaman. But saying ´willing to question the fundamental aspects of the regime currently in place at the expense of its stability´ brings you to the same line as statusquo defenders, which resist every tiny step for achiving a proper democracy.

If stopping people talking about the issues was one of the ´fundamental aspects of the regime currently in place´, then I am afraid we have serious issues about what we have right now..

I think Turkey is on the fast track to a proper democracy. Although it is a bit late according to me, but now, it is unstoppable.

People will talk, people will question, people will learn the things and statusquo defenders will keep scaring people by saying that´ they are undermining our stability´ at the same time. (this struggle is quite common to be honest. That is how the democracies are FORMED in countries)

I have made it a principle that I should not side up with people just because they are my friends. When taking sides it is necessary to make  decisions based on facts. Some people rely on their instincts or beliefs in the absence of facts, I donft think this works for critical decisions like the one we are talking about.

Therefore the equation you proposed : "...brings you to the same line as statusquo defenders, which resist every tiny step for achiving a proper democracy." is essentially wrong. I am in favour of maintaining political and economic stability but I am also in favour of truth.

To me the Armenian cause is one such conflict about which everyone talks based on what they believe might have happened or according to their ethnic, religious orientations. As a result all kinds of claims and accusations keep flying in the air. Many of those are evidently biased arguments by virtue that they are consistent depending on which side they come from. I believe that some atrocities were committed since the (military) authority of the day considered the Armenian actions in the region as high-treason (on account that they sided up with invading Russian troops taking up arms against local Turks). This however is just a belief. I have no proof at hand.

We know that Turks and Armenians co-existed in the same region usually in their own villages for more than a thousand years. What caused them to get into this conflict which allegedly claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people is actually not a mystery. Everyone accepts today that some Armenians and some Turks lost their lives but information on exactly how many and by whom has not been firmly established so far.

In the absence of facts, we are basing all our arguments on three major channels: Armenia, Turkey and Europe. Armenia and Turkey are the two sides. Therefore we canft expect them to be very objective. I believe neither Turkey nor Armenia is telling the truth. As for Europe, only until ten or so years ago, they were openly supporting the PKK.  France, Germany, Sweden, Belgium and many other European countries opened up their doors to the terrorists. At that time, they were calling these people independence warriors fighting against a sovereign country with which they have strong economic and political ties. I believe this attitude of Europeans is a tell-tale evidence of how they regard Turkey - a potential threat to their well-being.

A number of white-collars in this country have developed a ridiculous idea. It goes like this: There is democracy in the West, these people know everything right. We need to act and think exactly like them if we want to get rid of our primitive ways. This is indeed a proper policy for a vassal state and anyone defending it must be going through a serious identity crisis. Anyone defending this did not understand the first thing about AtaturkLs principles. Both Europe and Turkey must be and are after their own interests, their own well-being and their own policies. We will be more civilized the day we begin to seek solutions inside the country not among instant solutions imported from elsewhere.

This is good news a step towards healing....

Yeah!

They also killed the others living there. And they started it all first. Don´t you think they should also apologize?

This is one of the comments in radikal:

Bire bir arbedenin adý kavgadýr.Bine bin arbedenin adý savaþtýr.Bine bir arbedenin adý linçtir.Linç yapan kiþilerin biz linç yaparken adam kolumuzu ýsýrdý ama deme hakký yoktur.

If it is one to one it is called a fight, if it is thousand to thousand it is called a war. But if it is thousand to one it is called lynching. People who is doing lynching, have no right to complain ´but the man bit our arms´ 

This thread is odd, I can only see 4 posts the last one being an empty bo from Vinyard, but on the new in forums box to the right of the screen, there have been other posting, but I can´t see any of them.

Trudy reported it a couple of days ago, but none of you mods took a BLIND bit of notice

Same with me LL.  Trudy posted something about it in the "problems" thread the other day too.

I was only commenting that they started it all first. Kim dürttü dersin?

how about now? (I removed my double quotations)

 Only Fatýh can do anythýng about ýt and he isn´t around at the moment.

Page 2 is fine...it´s the first page that is a problem.

 Strangely enough I can read this second page but page 1 only the first 4 (of which nr. 4 is empty).

Ouh I can see the second page now - but not all of the first

(Trust YOU to be the problem hairy )

 So you are the problem!  I can see it all now.................   maybe not!  Only part of page 1 and all of page 2...........

Maybe this thread should be re-titled "Personal Apology by theHandsom to TC for the December 2008 events"

 Or

"What could have been a good argument has now been reduced to a trivial thread and it is pointless to add anything other than a trivial post to it"

Sorry, bit of long title

I reposted my message containing HTML codes incorrectly interpreted by Internet Explorer and Firefox.

The error in question formed like this:

1- typed the message with the forum´s standard editor

2- copy-pasted to Word

3- on seeing HTML problems copy pasted to Notepad to get get rid of them

4- Used Safari Internet Browser for posting the resulting text.

When viewed with Safari, TLC looks visually better, with easier-to-read fonts... The browser seems to correctly interpret everything no matter what. It is not the other way around unfortunately.

Thanks Vineyards   There still seem to be missing posts though - 5-9  - were any more of them yours?

Correction:  All posts are visible using Opera!

I couldn´t read them either using explorer or firefox. When I try it with Safari no problems whatsoever. I suggest you download a copy from Apple if you need to see them...

I am adding my post here..

btw.vineyards..I think html chars are  still in your post (at the bottom )

I have made it a principle that I should not side up with people just because they are my friends. When taking sides it is necessary to make  decisions based on facts. Some people rely on their instincts or beliefs in the absence of facts, I don’t think this works for critical decisions like the one we are talking about.

I would agree with what you are saying above but somehow, I can not relate with the topic..Did anybody say to you ´you should side up with people because they are your friends´ or ´believe in your instincts´ if you dont have the facts?

To me the Armenian cause is one such conflict about which everyone talks based on what they believe might have happened or according to their ethnic, religious orientations. As a result all kinds of claims and accusations keep flying in the air. Many of those are evidently biased arguments by virtue that they are consistent depending on which side they come from. I ´believe´ that some atrocities were committed since the (military) authority of the day considered the Armenian actions in the region as high-treason (on account that they sided up with invading Russian troops taking up arms against local Turks). This however is just a belief. I have no proof at hand.

Actually, they are not mystery really. And if you are still at the level of ´some Armenians and some Turks´ lost their lives and ´ah but we dont have and we can not have any reliable info. Then lets leave it is as it is´ I wont have any question..That is you..

Quote:

In the absence of facts, we are basing all our arguments on three major channels: Armenia, Turkey and Europe. Armenia and Turkey are the two sides. Therefore we can’t expect them to be very objective. I believe neither Turkey nor Armenia is telling the truth. As for Europe, only until ten or so years ago, they were openly supporting the PKK.  France, Germany, Sweden, Belgium and many other European countries opened up their doors to the terrorists. At that time, they were calling these people independence warriors fighting against a sovereign country with which they have strong economic and political ties. I believe this attitude of Europeans is a tell-tale evidence of how they regard Turkey - a potential threat to their well-being. 

Above is not telling the entire truth I believe. At goverment  level I dont think EU has supported terrorism.

But after 1980´s, people escaped from Turkey because of the military regime and of course EU opened their doors to those people. You can not blame the EU for this.. They will open their doors to anybody whose life is threatened anyway.

Then those people forming little communities in European countries, collecting money (secretly of course) and sending back to the organizations such as PKK was considered as EU sport for terrorism..

Turkey is expecting that EU should stop them. But why should they stop and how can they stop it?

If they try to shut those organisations and try to jail those people will be unthinkable because the entire country will question the merit of their democracy..They can not take these people to the police stations and beat the  confessions out of them. It is not like Turkey in EU.. You can not shut a political or non political organisation easily..

And it is not only for Kurds or Turks, you can see Tibetians protesting infront chinese consulate, Chechens collecting money for their cause, islam followers, pastafarians  etc..(actually, I know how it works in Turkey. A channel shows a kurdish demonstration in one EU countries and they are wearing red/yellow/green -pkk colours- and the entire coffee house attandents get agitated and start talking ´ah ah Europe supporting them; why are they not being arrested? blah blah´. And that somehow gets stuck as common knowledge as ´EU supporting terrorism´. Well but demonstration is not an illigal thing in EU!! why would they be arrested for that?)  

Quote:

A number of white-collars in this country have developed a ridiculous idea. It goes like this: There is democracy in the West, these people know everything right. We need to act and think exactly like them if we want to get rid of our primitive ways. This is indeed a proper policy for a vassal state and anyone defending it must be going through a serious identity crisis. Anyone defending this did not understand the first thing about Ataturk´s principles. Both Europe and Turkey must be and are after their own interests, their own well-being and their own policies. We will be more civilized the day we begin to seek solutions inside the country not among instant solutions imported from elsewhere.

Excuse me but, is this the last defence mechanism of the statusquo?

It used to be ´not now or it is not the right time´ when we said ´This countyr needs freedom of speech, this country requires opening, this country should understand what a real democracy or freedom is, our people deserve better than this´.

Since when does democracy belong to a region such as West?

And do you think we should stop asking ´more freedom, democracy or freedom of speech´ because they are normal forms in the west?

What are things such as freedom, democracy and freedom of speech got to do with identity crisis?

And you are rejecting universal values such as liberties, freedom of speech, right to live etc, because they are the forms from west? And associate your ideas with the understanding of Ataturk (and his principles) who himself spent almost his entire time trying to westernise Turkey from tip to by adapting some of the laws from the west plus his revolutions? 

This topic was in the theindependent today:

http://www.independent.co.uk/ne..-armenians-1067066.html 

highlights:

.. Turkey´s most sensitive taboo is slowly melting away.

"My conscience does not accept the denial of the great catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915," the text prepared by the group reads. "I reject this injustice and ... empathise with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologise to them."

.. "Our concern is being able to look at ourselves in the mirror in the morning ... freeing ourselves by finally facing up to the past," said the political scientist Baskin Oran

However, nationalists... saying it is a national betrayal. Counter campaigns refusing to apologise have sprung up. The head of a nationalist party with 70 seats in parliament described the initiative as an example of the "frightening extent to which degeneracy and corrosion have spread".

what a surprise!!!

Publicly talking about what happened in 1915 remains a sensitive issue in Turkey. The Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk was prosecuted in 2005 for saying a million Armenians had died. In January 2007, the Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was gunned down by a nationalist teenager for advocating a more humane debate on the issue.

Yet, while almost every Turkish town has a street named after the chief organisers of the massacres, the taboo surrounding the Armenian issue is nowhere near as total as it was a decade ago. 

..the historian Halil Berktay,.. says, "the Turkish establishment position is crumbling."

And their website is open:

http://www.ozurdiliyoruz.com/default.aspx

"ozur diliyoruz"  translates as "we apologize"

what a lovely list, starting with one of my favorite novelist Adalet Aðaoðlu.

i guess its too late to apologize coz the ones who are responsible have gone or at least most of them.

They were the ones who used to live in the east among their Turkish neighbours in peace.

The were the people who were called Millet-i Sadýka (people to be relied on ) that their Turkish neighbours could rely on them and leave their goods to them when they were even  in Mekkah (Mekke) to become pilgrims.

Then one day (during the independence war), some whistled to their ears;"We´re about to divide the  Empire into many parts,if you want to have lands for you,too come and join us".

These words;the proposals affected some of the armenians and they joined the enemies of the empire unexpectedly.

This trick of the enemies worked on very well on the armenians living there(some foresaw the coming future,didn´t want to be on the side of the deceived and left the lands soon before the conflict began.

The rest took part on the side of the enemies and then they attacked the Turkish villagers;the Turkish villagers tried to defend themselves but the deceived neighbours of them until that time,now they were together with the other enemies;using their weapons and attacking afterwards,without thinking of men,women and babies-the babies.

It was not a genocide.There happened a war in that region just because of the deceived groups who were directed by the others.

Well...years passed after the independence war.Still,there are the ones living in Turkey using their own names or the Turkish names;businessmen,tailors,singers,actors...live in peace here.

When it comes to apologise,the side who has to apologize (if it is needed ) are the grandchildren of the deceived !An apology is not needed at the real,just their feeling shame of being the supporters of them is enough.

I think this might be considered as a necessary step for us (Turks) as well as Armenians..

We somehow have to come into terms with our past and clear our concience on the issues..

We have been LIED enough.

We need the truth..

(May be, at some stage we will need to change some of the names of our streets as well, as the names those murderers  are still all over the place)

Hehehe I will make a personal apology to everyone in the UK for the cold weather today. Of course...  it is not actually my fault, and we don´t know actually IF I can be responsible, but it makes me feel intellectual and open minded by doing it

Remind you of anyone?

 hey, i loved this post. bravo bravo

im sure we all understand your need to share your feelings about the cold weather.

and im 100% sure that you are more than intellectual

and i should follow your example and apologise to everyone for every problem in the world that im not aware of.

yes, it reminds me something, but im afraid of saying it because i could get called for that a christian fascist.

 I am sorry, but I can´t forgive you. In fact, I will go on and on about this for years.  Maybe one day my children will demand an apology from your children and then all will be ok, but until then..... 

http://www.taraf.com.tr/makale/3101.htm

Please read

A passage from the link:

Bu alenen “Evet, yaptýk, haklýydýk, gerekirse gene yaparýz” demektir... Bu ahlak ve insanlýk düþmaný tutumu alan tüm Türklerden utanýyorum! Benim gibi Türk olan her insanýn da utanmasý gerektiðini düþünüyorum...

This is saying ´yes we did it, we were right, if necessary we will do it again". I am ashamed of the TURKS who take this enemy of morals and enemy of humanity attitude. I am thinking that every single Turks should be ashamed too..

Enjoy your reading

 OMG, i didnt know you from this side. you scare me your turkishness pops out from time to time unexpectedly i think even armegon will be more able to forgive than you

 I am sure Armegon will never forgive you either

 hanan, its never too late to say sorry, never. saying sorry cleans your conscience, after this your burden will be 1000000 lighter. at least it will be helpful to you even if those who were killed dont exist anymore.

and if anyone in the future comes and accuses you for this and that, there always will be someone else who would say "they have apologised-the end of story".

a few years ago mr, kwasniewski apologised for jedwabne. i rememer many people didnt want to admit and protested against this guesture finding in it a global jewish conspiracy. however, it was one of the most wonderful thing was done.

 It is all a bunch of crap, sorry!  Do you expect your children to apologise for things YOU did (or maybe didn´t do), after you are dead?

 yes, i do.

i personally think, if my ancestors did anything wrong to anyone in the past, im ready to write an article in every well-known paper to say that im deeply sorry for what my ancestors did to you.

btw, so are you now saying that you are not sorry for some part of british history? you wouldnt say sorry to some countries?

germans did apologise for their war crimes, and todays generation too. since when you suddenly against apologising, i remember you had a different idea on this?

since when you use the word crap?

your comment is too dodgy

You can call this as crap.. It is your idea.

I am proud of the people who opened that website and doing what they believe is right..

Only opposition so far coming from Turkey´s BNP version MHP which still insists that our ancesters can not be murderers. ..

BTW.. Do you know that those people, if they were British, who opened that website, would be next to you when you were protesting the war against Iraq?

Awwww Femme and theH are almost one person

It would be so dull if I agreed with you both though di mi?  You NEED me

 wonderful post bravo femme

 +1

wonderful post, bravo hairy

 -1

the most crappy post of the day!

 See this kind of thing is sooooooo dull!!!  Can´t you two EVER disagree or walk in someone else´s shoes?  Not even for a day?

You are as fixed in your minds as those you criticise -  you are SHEEP!  

 shut up you, bull

of course not

We are JUST very happy to see you where you are and we are really impressed about it..

 i mean i cant compare to bod. he has it in his little finger.

 I just keep an open mind theH

You should try it sometimes....one day you can argue for one side, another day you can argue for another.

That is because there is no black or white   You learn it as you get more mature (not necessarily older)

 +1 nothing to add

well..you can always go and shout .."I love killings, I love racists, I am with the murderers"

it will make you quite original..

And then you can boost about how proudly you joined the march against iraq war..

 i disagree with you AE, what you suggest is simply called a play.

Yet again you sound like all the people you criticise

You two make me laugh

 No.  It is called "being truly open minded".

I don´t expect you to understand

 hairy, you dont exaggerate, pls.

Your mind is SOO open..

It looks like it has never been closed at all...very very good for you lover of greys

 It is not a boast, it is something that, if you took part in it, you will never forget.   There are NO TWO SIDES to that story.... none!

 well, accepted. although i doubt it could be described so.

i may not be open-minded. and possibly its not my point too.

Enough - this thread is becoming childish!!! 

I will let our two evil ex-pats have the last word

 come on, sweetie, dont give up so soon

i still love you, even though you turned into a turkish nationalist lately

Well, if you join a march with THAT OPEN MIND, the result becomes you as it appears..

On one occasion, you chant for against killing people, on other you sideline yourself with the murderers (even though I am sure you have no idea what you are talking about).

Nice job.

Ah of course, you were grey..I forgot...you may lean any side at any time..Apologies

 What?!?!?!  Just who are these "murderers" I side with?

I knew I was right when I was saying  : (even though I am sure you have no idea what you are talking about).

I don´t side with any murderers TheHandsom. If you are talking about the Armenian issue, I see no proof of genocide. If it is true, then those murderers are dead now, and I see no point in Turkey apologising.

With regard to supporting any other views which you do not agree with, well all I can say to that is if someone on this forum was consistently attacking my country with the regularity that you attack Turkey, I believe you would push me into patrotically defending my country too!!!  One wonders why you actually come here.  Well, actually, no.  I think I can guess...

You are becoming more and more fascistic aenigma..

Those fascists can NOT have any argument and they accuse me with the same question:

"what is your agenda"

Do NOT you have anything better to say?

 You are a fanatic TheH   Really! I should be flattered!  You following me around at every opportunity!  When you get bored because I stop answering your posts, you start posting things about the "Translation Lounge" to get my attention

Awww canim

 Hmmm from what I can see, you are calling fellow Turkish Class members fascists and supporters of murderers?

Am I following you around?

are you sure?

and I am trying to get YOUR attention..

Your mind is really OPEN Aenigma!!!Open in a way that a lfy can get into it from one ear and can come out from the other (without bumping into any obsticle!! )

Anyway!!

 hairy, are you out of your mind?

control yourself, and dont get that small.

 i dont like this sentence.

I am out of this discussion..

Please keep it to the main topic

We are different people here with different opinions and thoughts,it doesnt gives us any excuse to go on and attack each other for our differences in opinions.

Ý believe we are mature than that.

Ýf you have any personal issue with other member take it via pm´s and keep it out of forum.

Thank you

It appears my original post here has disappeared.  Again, I think this is great news and hopefully this is the first step towards the healing process for some people. 

Thank you.

+100000000000000000

 Good brief history, thanks too

If theH wants to apology personally for something, that means he is guilty of this thing. maybe his grandfather was a member of the gang of Enver and Cemal, and that`s why he feels guilty. Just think about our so called liberals aka new york intellectuals, one of the most prominent one I can recall now is Hasan Cemal. Guess who is Hasan Cemal? He is the grandson of Cemal Pasa!

we have nothing to apaologize for, and if that is his personal apology for something, we don`t need to hear about it. he can do that without advertising it here.

 i suppose your generation and your children´s and grandchildren´s generation must die in order to be able to admit any wrongdoings. this coded thinking was passed from fathers to sons and is rooted so deep in the minds and that it needs more powerful powder to wash out the stains that became natural spots like those on a cow.

hmmmm and your grandpa most possibly was called koja nasreddin?

 Thank you Canlý - a voice of maturity!!

 I love you people here. So nice that you can all talk about life and its myriad views without falling out! Keep it up folks!

Thread has been locked for exchanging personal attacks.