A group of about 200 Turkish intellectuals on Monday issued an apology on the Internet for the World War I-era massacres of Armenians in Turkey.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/15/AR2008121501548.html

Thanks Ros..interesting article.  Maybe my post won´t disappear here.  I´m interested to see how many people sign this petition and it appears 2,500 already have online..

fine,

but great catastrophe?  dont they have a better linguist? i think we should send DD there.

Or we could send you over.  When they meet you they might change their mind and decide to annihilate Boratstan.

"The words were carefully chosen so as not to upset any side," she said. "We are not betraying anyone. We are merely telling the Armenians that we share their grief."

Funny statement above shows the hypocracy of that so-called "yaltakçý" intellectuels. I wonder if any of them share the grief of Turks during WW1 or the grief of Azeris just 17 years ago. Or if any of them realised Armenians have no intention of apology about what they had done in past. But i think Armenians are proud of these "prominent" intellectuels, maybe some awards for them are on way

The stories of Anatolia are written in blood. There are so many tragedies there. Some of these tragedies were probably conducted by the government. Sectarian fights, uprisals, mass killings all happened in this soil like everywhere else. We cannot judge the past events in the absence of proof. We can just feel the pain of lost people and their bad fate. We can do our best to change it today. We are not judges and none of us is innocent.

By way of reasoning, I know that both Armenians and Turks had almost the same culture, similar names, similar outlooks. They shared the same national identity and the same capacity for committing sin in a setting marked by lengthy wars, deprivation, blood that had been shed a depleted economy and misery of the worst kind. Unfortunately, people become capable of greater sins in such a setting. We only know this much.

Remember Titanic, remember how people thought about saving their lives first at the expense of others including women and small children. Remember how the blue collar boat crew in addition to second class passengers were locked behind bars and denied access to life boats. When a ship is about to sink people do things they wouldn´t otherwise...

You cannot judge those people without knowing their true story. I think all of the history books including British, Turkish, Australian and Jewish are completely biased. I have a couple of books depicting the WWI telling different stories heroism and valor. The same goes for the books on WWII. There is no consensus about the incidents that happened only 60 or so years ago. How can you be so certain about the history of a rural area lacking any means of communication.

What i wonder about...Are the armenians blood is so valuable , precious than the Turkish blood ?

Why not anyone´s feeling sorry for the Turkish people who has be murdered there then ?!

That question is directed specially to Turks who apologize and feel proud about it with lots of ??? and !!!!!

who cares about millions of Turks genocided in Anatolia, Balkans, Azerbaijan, Crimea, and Cyprus by christians?  no one gets nobel prize for acknowledging such things. If it`s done by christians, it`s never genocide, just like what happened in algeria, Bosnia, and Iraq.

of course it is. it`s christian blood.

I deleted the pictures, this is the link to the pictures of the victims of Azeri genocide carried out by armenians and russians in 1993 in Karabagh.

http://www.khojaly.org.az/photos.html

I wont above pictures deleted please..

if we were to post pictures of crimes against humanity, this site would make everybody sick..

And there are really horrible pictures which would make everybody to shake about our sins during 1915 Armanian problem..My country´s people who used to have one sided brain washing, may not realize it but there are.. 

You take my word for it..

Lawrence of Arabia, Lord Byron the two heroes of the past nourished on Turkish blood.

They provoked Arabs and Greeks to shed Turkish blood. As trains carried the corpses of ambushed Turks, Turkey´s male population nearly halved. Universities couldn´t graduate any students. 14 year olds were recruited for military service. The Ottoman Empire was attacked from all borders. No one ever remembered those Turks who died when defending their country.

A monument in Dardanelles was erected to commomorate foreign soldiers died in this country. You can still visit their graves which are kept in immaculate condition. You can read Ataturk´s praises inscribed on a marble statue about the Australian and English troops calling them their children too. What matters today is that the leader who fought that war said: Peace at home, peace in the world.

We want peace...

Thanks

this a link to the pictures of Turkish victims of the genocide carried out by the armenian terrorists in 1915.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana3.html

mmmmm,you are fighting this more than an armenian would do !

Calm down pictures are deleted

everyone should watch this video. This is filmed right after the Azeri genocide in Karabagh and it shows the bodies of of victims explicitly. Note that the cameraman, Cengiz Mustafayev, who was filming this got murdered by the armenian terrorists.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Rk30k5vx0

Thank you for that..I am calm as dead sea..

I have a close friend who always said that to us that he is kurdish..

Now he ´confessed´ that he is an armenian after all those years...

So, I have no problems of defending my ´brothers´. I know, defending your brothers is an eastern and very Turkish thing..

And I have no problem with that..

But I have to point out that you are defending the turkish thesis which is nothing to do with reality, more than  any Turkish neo nationlist would do..

 Again handsom you are attacking who ever DARE not agree with you and calling him/her names

Please modify your post and delete that word fascist from it,and try to accept the fact that people dont HAVE to agree with you

I have changed it..

But I have to say that  when you say  ´more than an armenian would do´ I feel a kind of racism in your comment..

What is wrong with being an Armenian?

 Thanks

Btw,you have missed an ´a ´ there ... nationalist 

Sure thing..

No problem at all.. But checking it again, I dont think i missed an ´a´ there..

btw..neo nationalist was not a compliment at all..But if you accept it, you are welcome

 Ãm not the one who has said it ...so its no problem to me too

remember what they have taught us when we were kids ?!

Definately, we were not tought the same thing or I was at an age that I  had the conscious to refuse what I was thought.

Since it is not a problem for to be called like that. it is fine (I would be ashamed personally!!)

But I wil still insists that ´more than an armenian would do´ makes me feel that there is a kind racism in your post..

So I will repeat my question: What is wrong for being an Armenian?

 This i must agree with

Quoting thehandsom

Since it is not a problem for to be called like that. it is fine (I would be ashamed personally!!)

Ý would be ashamed only with something i did/said not good,not by someone calling me names... !

Ýn that case,its not me who should be ashamed !

So again i agree we were not taught same

Ý was repying to this,then again you brought it up,and that proves my point !

You are doing it again and using the word racism ?  

Ýt seems you see only what you want to see,and now im wondering what would you add too ?

Racism,fascist,neo nationalist ....?!!! 

What would be more ?!

Well handsom,i know yes that you are a Turk and Turks language is not English but also as far as i know you live in UK and you speak good English

So i see no need to explain my sentence to you.

And as i told you once....it wont work handsom..not with me anyway

You wont get to pull me to something or direction or a path that to follow and i am not planing to follow it

Now its my turn that you accuse me of being racist ?!

Ýt wont work...and i wont stand and exchange same thing with you...

You can ask a native English speaker what was the meaning of what i said,if it was that complicated !

If I misunderstood, I apologize

what you said was 

and I really apologize..

But what I was trying to say was you were talking about ´being armenian as if it is a bad thing´ 

since you say that ´no..being an armenian is not a bad thing´  it is fine for me as I believe armenians used to be our neighbours  as we shared ´bread with them for many centuries´. I have no problem at all. 

I always considered they are ´our brothers´. And, since you did not mean ´what you said´ in a racist way and they are brothers to you as any nation can be, then, I DO apologize..

btw..

I have never associated myself with Enver and Cemal..(I remember writing something about ´young Turks´ at some stage and nobody can say that I glorified them )

But since you are associating what they did  ´as guilt´,  It is as good as a confession to me..

You are accepting that something happened and what happened was ´resulting in being guilty´.

I am not associating myself with those murderers..

I have always wanted everything being discussed.

But, thanks for being that brave and admitting that ´there is a guilt there´ and  we have to disassociate ourselves from those murderers. .  

I just said why you feel guilty, that`s somthing dealing with your understanding of the events. I don`t consider the decision of deportation a guilt, but you think so. That`s your problem so you can apology personally without turning it into a show business, or advertising it here. As we have nothing to apologize for, it must be your personal concern and we don`t care about your personal and private concerns.

The list of Turkish diplomats murdered by the armenian terrorists between 1973 and 1984

27 ocak 1973 - los angeles (abd) mehmet baydar - bahadýr demir
22 ekim 1975 - viyana (avusturya) daniþ tunalýgil
24 ekim 1975 - paris (fransa) ismail erez - talip yener
16 þubat 1976 - beyrut (lübnan) oktar cirit
9 haziran 1977 - roma (italya) taha carým
2 haziran 1978 - madrit (ispanya) necla kuneralp - beþir balcýoðlu
12 ekim 1979 - lahey (hollanda) ahmet benler
2 aralýk 1979 - paris (fransa) yýlmaz çolpan
31 temmuz 1980 - atina (yunanistan) galip özmen - neslihan özmen
17 aralýk 1980 - sidney (avustralya) þarýk arýyak - engin sever
4 mart 1981 - paris (fransa) reþat moralý - tecelli arý
9 haziran 1981 - cenevre (isviçre) m. savaþ yergüz
24 eylül 1981 - paris (fransa) cemal özen
28 ocak 1982 - los angeles (abd) kemal arýkan
5 mayýs 1982 - boston (abd) orhan gündüz
7 haziran - lizbon (portekiz) erkut akbay - nadide akbay
27 aðustos 1982 - ottawa (kanada) atilla altýkat
9 eylül 1982 - burgaz (bulgaristan) bora süelkan
9 mart 1983 - belgrad (yugoslavya) galip balkar
14 temmuz 1983 - brüksel (belçika) dursun aksoy
27 temmuz 1983 - lizbon (portekiz) cahide mýhçýoðlu
28 nisan 1984 - tahran (iran) iþýk yönder
20 haziran 1984 - viyana (avusturya) erdoðan özen
19 kasým 1984 - viyana (avusturya) evner ergun

Hehe Classic TC!!! One thread gets locked, then Roswitha comes along and "innocently" posts another thread about exactly the same topic, and the thread continues!

 Maybe one day TC will be all sweets and roses and everyone will love each other and this "shoe fight" will end

 and how boring would that be!!

 really? roughly about 2 years ago tc was sweets and roses. and many people want it back.

 i would love to go to new york and shake hands with turkish intellectuals, maybe then i would finally see some turks with no complex and national pride?

since , vineyards, you are so good at wording and you love showing off with your rich vocabulary, maybe you should go and give a hand your brothers?

btw, vineyards, whats got boratstan with turkish intellectuals or armenian genocide?

why would turkish intellectuals would annihilate boratstan  or maybe they wanted to demonstrate on borats how your ancestors committed manslaughter on armenians? you meant that?

vineyards, you want to sound a wise man using all those beautiful words in your posts in an orators manner manipulating perfectly. but you should grow up in order to discuss on my level.

 oh, vioce of reasoning, sweet turkish voice, remember titanic?

the genocide was completly planned and it didnt happent like as titanic hit the iceberg. the march of death was planned and carried out precisely prior to the execution of all armenian high profiles.

 ? doesnt he have a right to protest like you canli often do?

 you strangly dont see turkish nationalists attacking and insulting who dare speak anything about turkishness. they too call names, but you turn a blind eye on them.

please, if you want to carry out your job justfully then ask other members to modify their posts too.

Refresh your memory...

We have been talking about the events happened almost a century ago..

Are you suggesting that what happened during 1973-1984 should change people´s perspective about what happened during 1915?

I find it ´as pathetic as Israeli right wing jews´ trying to defend itself with the list of what PLO did during 1970s

 i find it pathetic that you try to use the word israel on order to impact on people like tami.

You are free to find it any way you like femme..

There is a good parellel there on both examples...You may not see the way I see it but you are welcome

 i used to see the way you see it, but then i also saw something else.

i see the jews are a gigantic contribution to the humanity, to the science, art, culture, cultural and social revolutions, whereas i cant state the same about palestinians.

as for armenians, they too are a fantastic contribution, almost all the composers, writers, poets, film producers were armenians in the former soviet union.

but this is offtopic now, i have no wish to talk about it.

True, I have heard there are a number of "girl in a cake" and "jelly wrestling" companies in NY.

We-Turks-are hospitable,seen in the history afterwards,

But not even a shelter we keep for enemies, in our hearts !

 Thank you.  I will try to remember that

 hahaha really? you see im not very knowledgable about girls in cake or jelly wrestling unlike you

I agree with you in generic terms...Yes we Turks are hostipable.

But however, the ones who erased every single ´non Turkish element´ from our country (sucessfully) wont fit what you are saying up there.

And denying what happened in the history wont fit either.

They wont represent Turks anyway..

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10582943.asp?scr=1

Everyone can express their opinions freely, Turkish President Abdullah Gul said Tuesday referring to a recent internet campaign launched to issue a public apology to Armenians regarding the 1915 incidents.

Despite the annoyance of nationalists, the president defends the campain!!

Nice to hear these things from that level ..

At the risk of raising the level of conversation away from name calling towards actual facts and information, I highly recommend the article below. Neither side will be entirely happy with it, as it presents information that defenders and attackers will both agree with and argue about.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/journal/articles/wpj05-3/Cooper.pdf

Kim Bey

Thank you..

now we waiting same sensitivity frommArmenina intellectuals...

 So you signed the petition then, Robert?

 Is MrX67 called Robert??

 Yes, we have a celeb in the house Robert De Niro...  Look at his pic...he reminds me of him.

 Oh yes!  There is a bit of a resemblance - around the eyes.  I wonder if we have any other lookylikeys on TC - I think I might have a browse through some photos and see who I can find.  Might be an idea for a new thread - (GO AWAY YILGUN - MY IDEA!! )

Edit:  Changed my mind about the thread - too boring looking through all those photos and so far I have only come across members with different names who seem to share the same profile pic - so they just look like each other not film stars! 

It will be perfect if they do too..

But I doubt it..I think their racism is still worse than racism in Turkey..

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Turkey´s prime minister on Wednesday said he will not join a group of Turkish intellectuals who issued an apology on the Internet for the World War I-era massacres of Armenians in Turkey.

Well

Fair is fair:

http://www.ozurbekliyorum.com/

ozur bekliyorum means ´I am expecting an apology´

But how original the website is..´BRRRRRRRRILLIANT´!!

 first i´m not an intellectual and next if that would help for fix froblems or if that would be a reason for lasting peace i would sign that with my all heart and ignoranceif only signs could be help to ended ´´snake story.

 don´t say me pls you don´t know hes my elder brother lady

 I don´t think you have to be an intellectual to sign it..as I understand the petition is online.  How nice of you Robert...I knew you had a kind heart and want lasting peace...

 maybe you teasing with me but really if only intellectuals  could be brave as much as ignorants for keep peace...

riches and intellectuals aren´t they the main responsibles of the many troubles of this wonderfull globe???

 Yes, and don´t forget our corrupt politicans. Bye the way I wasn´t teasing you.  I believe you do have a very kind heart.

 close your eyes and try to dream by take of ur nationality,belief,ethnicity dresses,by throw away all thick books which full with hate and revenge for write a more colourfull books for the next generations,its very romantic but how nice,right?then let others say you ,you are idiot or naked,is it more important then peace??

 Very wise Robert...thank you.If only I could remember this more often myself.

I already signed it. I think it´s a nice step. Sometimes we, as citizens, don´t need to behave very politically, at the end of the day, it´s mostly the politicians and politics of the countries which turn the world into a less livable place. It´s a civil initiative, and there is no word of "genocide" in it. Signing this petition does not mean that we approve the turkish deaths caused by armenians nor do we minimize the sorrows ofthe turks. I didn´t sign it because I´m responsable for their deaths or for their expulsion but I signed it to show that I care about their sorrows as a turkish citizen.

And you really really surprised me with this

that doesn`t make sense at all. If you apologize for something, that means you`re guilty of that thing, so you agreed that you`re guilty by signing that petition.

Exactly. If it is reworded as "we are sorry for ...." then those who signed could be excused.

Who has to apologize here? First the imperial powers have to apologize for causing those tragedies between two nations who lived together in peace for more than 8 centuries.

This is the wording in English

My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters. I apologize to them.

This is the wording  for ´my friends´ to sign it:

My conscience does not accept the insensitivity (BECAUSE I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE OTHERS)  showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I DO NOT reject this injustice (BECAUSE I WAS TAUGHT THAT WAY and MY ANCESTORS WERE HEROS; THEY CAN NOT BE MURDERERS) and for my share, I CAN NOT empathize (BECAUSE THEY TOLD ME SO) with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters  (BECAUSE I DO NOT CARE) . SO I CAN NOT  apologize to them.

Site name reads "I apologize". Why should I apologize? I can only be sorry at most. Those who caused that tragedy must apologize.

 I just saw on TV the grandson of a Finnish 3rd class passenger on the Titanic relating how she described the voyage.   No mention of what you discribe, where did you hear it?  But it underscores that it is hard to be sure what really happened in 1915.   American and British journalists were expected to "support the War effort" with their writing. 

I was 12 or 13 years old when "Lawrence of Arabia" the movie came out.  I liked it so much that I read both of Thomeas Edward Lawrences books.  (about 1000 pages)..  But now I realize that most of the trouble in the Middle East is his fault.  That maybe if the Ottomans had retained the region, that there would be no Israel, no hamas, no hizbollah, and 9-11 would have never happened.

Thomas Edward Lawrence was very dilusioned by what happened in the Middle East after WWI.   He more or less went quietely insane and basically commited suicide on a motorcycle.

 Thank you, it´s nice to get flowers from you.

I don´t really get all the fuss going on about this subject in Turkey. The people who signed it have been declared like traitors or the worst people. What if some people feel like saying sorry, the ones who do not feel like just do not need to sign it, it has not been signed in the name of all people, it is something personal. About this subject, I agree with Abdullah Gül, they have just used their freedom of expression.

Great post - my thoughts exactly!  Bu arada, TE Lawrence became a sapik!  After being nearly flogged to death during his capture, he became addicted to it and paid men to flog him for sexual kicks!

We surely can´t know exactly what happened on such a big boat like the Titanic. Thousands of people were involved and the size of the vessel that went through the tragedy was not smaller than a village  with so many floors, rooms, aisles, decks forming a labyrinth of steel structure.

Of course, I based my observation on the recent movie on the incident. Admittedly, it cannot be a true representation of what happened in 1915. I would also expect witnesses to be concerned with what was happening to them rather than others when the ship was sinking.

Keeping in mind that the Titanic was a metaphor rather than the subject itself, I can provide two supportive arguments one from the story of a famous Turkish wrestler Koca Yusuf (The Terrible Turk) an interesting story about an unbelievably huge and strong Turkish wrestler who got killed in a ship disaster in the middle of the Atlantic on his way back home. He was said to be wearing a belt filled with gold he had won in the US. He tries to climb to a life boat but other passengers fear that such a huge man would capsize the boat and they begin hitting on his hands with a hammer one of them happened to have. This is the story left in my mind you can browse the net for the details.

There are also paragraphs in some psychology books that describes the behaviour of the passengers on a boat or a plane. Although passengers seem to be happy when everything is normal, they are actually very alert about a possible danger. Once something goes wrong and a life threatening danger is expected they begin to lose control. They have heart attacks, nervous break downs but until that moment they usually do even the most unacceptable things just to save their lives...

Can I use my freedom of expression in France?

That is France´s problem..

I remember an expert`s proving that his claim in his book that he was raped by a Turkish colonel in a fortress somewhere in Arabia was just one of his sexual fantasies because in fact he never went to that fortress.

but history is written by these arsholes just because they are on the side of the strong.

and the Armenian issue is the problem of Turkey and Armenia, not of France.

Agreed on that..

And it is OUR problem and now we, TURKS are talking about it..(despite the annoyence of nationalists!! )

Thanks to the people who initiated the petition and made it happen..

doing it in a onesided way, without acknowledging hundreds of thousands of Turks genocided by the "angelic" armenians is nothing but the same type of cheap propaganda used by the armenian fascists and terrorists.

I`m asking you one simple question. can you fake liberals acknowledge the Turks genocided by the armenians? can you?

You should start reading abit of history before talking like racist/fascist MHP supporters which can not simply accept the fact that someone may thing different than what they think..

Simply start with my ´simplified translation´ about the events explained in a simplified way http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_37173.

right, when someone acknowledges the Turks murdered by the armenians he becomes an racist/fascist mhp fan.

I asked you a simple question but you couldn`t answer it. just say yes or no. it`s that easy.

You are welcome mltm..

Read the articles about this subject in Turkish newspapers. Look how those people who initiated the campain, are treated.

this is simple paragraph for example:

Yesterday daily Radikal published a phone conversation between her and the paper´s Ankara representative, Murat Yetkin. It went like this:

Yetkin: Why do you think that the ethnic origin of the president´s family matters?

Arýtman: It doesn´t matter.

Yetkin: Then why did you mention it?

Arýtman: As president, he needs to protect the rights of this nation. But he is protecting his ethnic belonging Whoever threatens Turkey by not opposing this campaign will be asked, ´are you an Armenian?´."

See how they think!!

There are these cancerous elements in politicals in Turkey. Even a simple "freedom of expression" can be seen as betrayel to your nation..

They have been in the power for so long and they have been loving that power so long,  they can NOT even understand the  time has changed and they can not even think straight like any normal person in the world..

That is the reason why they hate everything about words like ´democracy´ (and even the word ´west´, since they associate the democracy with the west).

 this is not entirely true

he did not commit suicide. he tried not to hit the boys on bikes.

hes a hero to arabs, an enemy to jews and turks.

he seemed to be ok when he first appeared on the deserts of arabia. but then the heat of the sun and a great culture of arabs had impacted on him

never watched the film but read quite interesting opinions on him.

I agree, this is the fact.  However, it is generally accepted that he had a death wish by then and was riding the motocycle extremely fast...

 btw, vineyards meant the movie, i think. i often ignore such his posts he loves fantasy, walks astray from the main subject and counts stars on the sky with the help of his expensive wines 

he was trying to justify horrible things done by some people pointing out on to the titanic movie. but he forgot to mention how brave was dicaprio to save poor people

 Interesting... but I am curious - how exactly did this "expert" prove that he was not raped!

Anyway, yes he was a very sexually screwed up individual, so I guess either story could be true!

"The tests revealed the imprint of a capitalised "A" on November 18 — almost certainly the A of Azraq, a derelict castle in an oasis 100 kilometres south-east of Deraa, where Lawrence had spent several days.

Barr suggests Lawrence stayed put, rather than going to Deraa — a contention supported by a letter Lawrence wrote to his mother on November 14, 1917. In it, he claimed to be "staying here (at Azraq) a few days".

Lawrence first mentioned the alleged rape in June 1919, midway through writing his memoirs. Barr says Lawrence fabricated the event to discredit Arab militants in the precarious post-war climate.

Barr´s findings resurrect claims that Lawrence had sado-masochistic urges and elaborated on the rape scene for his own pleasure."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/05/20/1147545567325.html?from=top5

Interesting, although I doubt Lawrence had any political motive for his claim.  Most likely he, correctly, guessed that his memoirs would be of more interest to people if they contained something salacious

Either way, he is a sapik who caused huge problems and was hailed a "hero" to some..... God bless Great Britain

I`m sure the Arabs say that too(especially those in Iraq)

 Yes we are beloved by the whole world!

You see Tamikidakika, it is POSSIBLE to be realistic about your own country and it´s history, but still have a love for it

Maybe you should try it sometime

I will track down his living relatives and ask them to join the campain as well..

so can you tell me in what way I`m not realistic about my country and it`s history?

 Are you serious?

 whose?

vineyards?

dicaprio?

or ET of arabia?

I`m serious! because I don`t know what you`re talking about.

 duplicate post!

 hes dead serious since you two are soulmates only thing im not sure who influenced whom more

 ROFL

I guess more people joins the better..I will track all of them then

Darling Tam - our secret is out!!! Femmeous knows we are soulmates!

Should I tell her the truth?

 if i know everything what else left to tell me?

 you are pregnant?

be careful with them, hairy. They may happen to be like their grandfather. you may end up in an unwanted relationship

I think this topic is screwed up..

I will restore it later on..

we didn´t want to tell YET

 that ET of arabia will not be easy. i doubt he left a gene behind him

 Oh thank you so much ThePerfect

go ahead tell her the truth. I also want to know what it is

 yes, and its all her fault, blame on AE of britania

 Hmmm well of course I don´t know you at all, but I feel we should make something up eh?

 I LOVE MY NEW NAMEEEEEEEEEE

Shall I delete TheAenigma and come back as AE of Brittania?

Aren´t you the same girl who kept calling everyone a liar? You know exactly what I wrote and what I actually meant without ever reading my post. Be truthful to yourself first.

This is a debate between believers not thinkers. On one side, there are those who assume millions of Armenians were butchered overnight and on the other there are those who believe hundreds of Turks and Azeris were slaughtered by Armenians. I don´t trust or believe either thesis. I just know some lives were lost and I am willing to express my sorrow for each and every innocent victim regardless what ethnicity they were. Those biased, colored thinker-believers will keep talking about things which they perceive as iron-clad truth about a period which is highly speculative.

In my opinion, when one million or so people are murdered like that this will certainly have consequences other than mere word of the mouth, tales and stories. Unless some one comes up with the hard proof of exactly who did what to whom, I tend believe what we are presented with is nothing more than a highly exegerated account of a possibly very sad chapter of our common history with the Armenians.

I don´t like policies centering around hatred. I wish the prejudices to be forgotten a new page to be opened between new generations of both countries and peoples.

 yes, when i see a lie, i dont hesitate ever to point it out unlike others who would rather stay polite and quiet i like their politeness and their cold head self controlling.

i know exactly what you wrote there, and it was a complete bullshit, excuse my language.

i first of all, always try to be truthful, because i know one rule "when you lie, you have to make another lie to cover the first", therefore its better not to lie otherwise it will be difficult to break the chain of heavy and thick lies. and its very difficult to remember the lies you made years/months/days before and you may get caught in them soon or later. and i love catching culprints

No, I don´t excuse you. The problem is you have no problem excusing yourself even after blatantly insulting people. Don´t despair though, mods seem to excuse you too, on everyone´s behalf.

 if there was a contest on insulting you would get the first prize

just wondering how the mods ignore your numerous personal attacks i see a thick turkish conspiracy here.

 this one is soooo funny

Caramba, carambita!

 awwwwwww! i love you too, canim

You are a conservative person Vineyard. You are a status quo protector. Neither I was expecting you to support this personal apology petition nor I was expecting you to support the idea of people talking about it because it would be against the current status quo which was  created by the people who, in fact, repeatedly lied to all Turkish people

There would be no talking, no arguing ALMOST about anything if people thought the same way as you do..

Anyway, going back to the subject

Here is Alpay Sahin´s column (in zaman) about why he has signed it:

About half of the nearly 1.5 million Ottoman Armenians who were subjected to forced deportation lost their lives on the way, either through killings by members of the security forces and bandits, or as a result of epidemics and hunger. Some of them survived the ordeal through protection by Turks and Muslims and conversion to Islam. Others were able to eventually flee to the West, mainly to France and the United States, where most of the Armenian diaspora lives today. There remain only about 70,000 Armenian citizens of the Republic of Turkey today living almost entirely in Istanbul. Those Armenians who served in the Ottoman army upon their return from the war found that their families and communities had all disappeared and that their possessions had been confiscated.

Armenian nationalists maintain that the decision of the Committee of Union and Progress rulers to deport the Ottoman Armenians was part of a plan aimed at their total annihilation. This argument has never been proven, being disputed even by distinguished non-Turkish Ottoman historians. The fact, however, that the Ottoman government collectively and inhumanly punished its Armenian citizens by deportation in retaliation for the crimes of Armenian nationalist rebels who collaborated with the enemy is beyond dispute. ..

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=161890

Well you needn´t go back to the subject, you have already lost me there...

Mods and admins:

Personal attacks and insults keep flying in the air. In the absence of proper moderation, you shouldn´t object to those defending themselves the way dictated by their so-called discussion counterparts...

I am also tired of the incompatible and arbitrary moderation going on here....

Are we supposed to do all the work ourselves?

I sensed that , there was a belittling  in your post by trying to put a moral barrier between  believers and thinkers. (Or it might be purely my misunderstanding) 

As a person who talks about this subject openly, I took  the understanding that you think I am a believer..

And, to be honest, in this thread or in similar threads, nobody came with the argument that armenians got killed in millions over a night..There is no blind armenian nationalist around as far as I know.. 

Anyway I would leave it here..

If my tone in that post amounts to belittling how will we explain yours? Labeling? Name calling? You tell me what...

May I call you a bigot if we are in the open market?

It is possible that moderation is sometimes ´incompatible´.  Unless there is an admin or moderator constantly on line following every contentious thread (which often starts quite innocently so you can’t always tell what to keep an eye on from the thread title) it is not possible to pick up on everything and things can be missed - so one comment might be deleted and another left in.  As for ´arbitrary´ - using your own discretion to decide when and where to intervene can actually be quite difficult - sorry if we´re not perfect at it.

I have a life outside Turkish Class , as does everyone else, and can’t be here 24/7 and when I do sign in it sometimes takes me a long time to read through the many pages that have appeared in a very short time. If you are particularly bothered about something then send one of us (or all of us) a pm that can be seen on signing in, directing us to the ‘trouble spot’.

 
With regard to this particular thread, I presume you are referring to insults flying between femmeous and yourself.  Are you asking for all your(plural) posts containing perceived insults to be removed or do you want a ‘warning’ to both of you?

We are trying to follow a policy of non-interference as long as insults don´t go too far, meaning that ´mild´ insults should not result in our intervention... after all we are dealing with adults and they should be able to handle ´mild´ insults. Unless there is a complaint, people should have some space to resolve issues in their own way before a mod leaps in and starts deleting.

Personally I think we seem to be damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

And finally, as part of Forum Rule 9 says – ‘If someone posts an insulting comment towards you, do not reply to it, it will only start a flame-war’ - although I’m really not sure of the point of this – because no-one takes a blind bit of notice.

I see it is acceptable to let people get slightly insulted. We have to live with the fact that the site is slightly moderated despite the number of mods and number of times they read each post. This is a go ahead message for tens of people to begin cursing one another. Our only protection against flame is not getting involved in it. We must convert ourselves into senseless machiness with no psychology, no emotional reaction. Just let it go!

If we were a bunch of selfless Indian fakirs this scheme might work but we are regular people talking about highly speculative matters.

If I called you a useless passivist who will not move a finger amid the chaotic fighting that goes around her, this would be no different from thehandsom´s remarks about me. I could go on and say out of anger, you and people of your sort are responsible for all the disorder, gutter fight and swearing here.

Well, don´t take me wrong, I am not actually making above statement. Just showing you how flame wars begin.

Tens of people?

But there are only four of you who regularly get involved in such arguments anyway.  I would have thought that you would have run out of insults to eachother by now

Yes, you do have to live with the fact that the sight is ´slightly´ moderated due to the fact that moderating/admin is not a career.  What a stupid comment that ´tens of thousand´ of people will start cursing each other!

I see it was thehandsom that upset you this time and not femmeous - yet you seemed to be exchanging ´pleasantries´ with her as far as I could see.  I didn´t see any curses from thehandsom - maybe you could explain to me how he cursed you?

Please feel free to call me a useless pacifist any time you want.  If you did it certainly wouldn´t bother me because I don´t know you and you don´t know me and therefore any opinion you might have of me is of no interest or worry to me whatsoever.

Well I guess, you can go and put the name of ´Talat pasha´(interior minister in 1915) into the list..Or ´Devlet Bahceli´ (leader of Turkish Nationalist Party)

I dont think it matters that much.

...

Anyway..

Even Turkey comes to terms with its history because of this campain, there is no way of repairing what happened in 1915.
The important thing is that this mentality should not attempt to do the similir things in these soils.

This ´coming with the terms´ never happened in Turkey..If it did we would have been living in much better country. And may be there would be less deaths, less  bloodshed, less coup detats, less ergenekon, less jitem etc. And we would still have Hrant Dink.
But this campain has also showed that the word ´armenian´ is still a word which makes people heart beat fast.

There are two kind of people who are opposing this campain according to Murat Belge:
One group is the people whom will start to shout and start stamping, as soon as you open this subject. They are the ones who were brought up as ´nationalists Turkish citizens´ and they are always ready to scream as ´damn this and that´ as soon as ´the chief of chorous´ nods
The other group is know what they are doing exactly..

They are trying to protect their deeds. They are trying to protect their houses and lands..

The real screamers are those..

They are the ones who says ´we would do it again if necessary´. They are the ones who accepts willingy the propaganda of ´if we do accept, they will ask for this and that´.

And also he is pointing out how these things are seen from abroad:
Do you think foreigners, who are watching all these, are adoring Turkish people´s high level humanity? are they thinking ´a nation who is screaming with those words, threatening others with those words in 2008, could not have killed Armenians in 1915?´ or they are thinking that ´these people can do anything´. Who do you think is bringing more respect to Turkey?  these screaming people  or despite everything, the existance of a handful of people who say ´yes, it happened, and it was very bad´?

 Are you serious?

All that campaigning I did to get you elected (not to mention that back-hander you promised me with your pay rise) was all a lie?!

Hehehe anyway, most of our mods don´t need money....power is their reward

 Don´t call me a liar please - it´s very lonely at the top  

 Cunning schemer better?

 thats an absolute lie, you are forcing me to call you a heartless liar!

and if its not me stirring the pot (by bribing cat and other admins) bedy in bed would not be there where now she is. :S

 excuse me, i never go below the so called belly button, i never comment on your family (husbands, wives, children, maybe sometimes uncles or aunts but they are hardly a family).

a nice word "pleasantries"

haha, at least now somebody understands me.

On top of what LIR said, I was also thinking that we are dealing with adults who don´t need a 24 hour supervision and can take care of most issues themselves.

I will of course not call you a pacifist under the circumstances. I see you can show your teeth when you are criticized.

As for that "it is not our career therefore we can moderate to our heart´s content" stuff.

1- This is a voluntary job, why did you take the responsibility of a position for which you´d normally expect a payment?

2- Why don´t you do anything about the posts you see by chance?

3- Do I need to personally know you to get your attention to a problem about the site?

4- Now that you call my comment stupid you must be feeling real close to me.

5- As for adults take care of their problems stuff; I can be twice old as some of you; I don´t have to learn manners from anyone of you. Other people, some of us peek fun at like Roswitha, Alameda and Libralady are both so much more mature than all of you combined and worthy of more respect.  Did you see me argue with anyone of them? You wouldn´t because they are not irresponsible fire starters

No, contrary to what you meant in your quick and lazy comment, I am neither that immature nor so childish.

 Vineyards, you know I have a soft spot for you, but WHY WHY WHY do you advocate such rigid censorship moderation?   You KNOW that these arguments will always end up with a degree of insulting, so if it bothers you so much, why partake in them?

Because people can communicate without labeling each other...

 I agree, and I prefer a good debate without resorting to name calling, but unfortunately it is NEVER gonna happen here!!!  So if you can´t beat them, join them

why do you call me salak then

You know perfectly well what I meant by the ´its not a career´ comment and where do you get the ´so we can moderate to our heart´s content´ stuff?  

1.Who said I would expect payment - when has moderating an internet forum ever been a paid job?

2. Did I actually say I saw them by chance?  I said it was possible to miss them.  And maybe if I did see them ´by chance´ I might not consider, in my opinion and at my discretion, that they needed comment.

3.You do have my attention about the problems.  

4.No

5.Much as I don´t like to admit it you are certainly not twice as old as me - I wish I was half your age  

I don´t want to teach you manners.

I am so glad you find Roswitha, Alameda and Libralady mature, so do I actually.  So we can assume you only like to argue with people you consider to be immature?  You obviously won´t want to argue with me then.

thats always better to try creating rosary of future instead of scratching in  history´s dump....

Oh viney, you do make me giggle! Stop bitching at the mods to censor people and censor yourself! Or do you prefer to pretend that the vile comments you make are ok because you are only giving back to someone who has offended you first?

If you are so opposed to this type of behavior then the first step is to no take part in it. Since you were a mod at one point you should know how hard it is…..but then again, I guess you do, since you abandoned ship.

 Because I know that you realise I am joking.....a bit

 hey, i thought you were gone

 sapik

 Hehehe an added bonus for you...an extra few minutes

I think, I have been called here many many times with all sorts of names and I have considered all those insinuations as bonuses as well. I have been sweared at alot in some cases which I complained.

But I have never considered myself as a whiner or a crying baby.

If people keep going  freely with their insinuations and expecting that they will not get a slap on their face, is a mistake..

If I can not bear it, i will take my marbles and say ´I am not playing´..

I advice the same for others too..

 thank you, salak but promise me you will be in contact with me via your crystal ball

 Yes!  And you will be top of my list for my new year´s predictions

 it seems being a crying baby is a domain in turkey

mom, they beat me, mom, they told that im a donkey mom, they took my marbles

200 in 72 000 000 000?

Let me know when the number reaches 60 000 000 000 !

 And take a two week sabatical  

Where is my post, I can´t see it.

It is deleted because of your insults.

Please can you delete my membership too.

Please send me or another admin a private message if you wish that to be done.

Here we go again.

 Thats a quite nice song huh?

 You must be looking forward to the 30th...

definetely i am working on it!!

 What time are you picking me up?

 well its not good to go to at the beginning... that causes getting drunk early... so after 1-2 hours party starts we can go there... so lets make it 22?

 Thats true...how about we get something to eat before hand.  That way when we drink we won´t get sick.  I can make you some nice appetizers..

 Don´t tell me you didn´t see this coming?!?! 

 haha..give me a drink fast..

 That is tempting!!!

I am in! but i cant drink when i eat something with sugar :S

 The only questions are: when will he come back and what will his new nick be. 

Perhaps we can start a thread voting on new names for returnees. 

 thats a brilliant idea

i cant wait to win the list. hurry up before yilgun hijacks your idea.

Personally, I am feeling sorry he has asked to be deleted..

I always valued Vineyards opinions.

It does not mean that I would agree with him but he was a valuable person in my opinion..

 that was actually too quick.

 Oh phulezzeeeeee!!!!! 

You too bickered more than two little school girls fighting over the pink crayon! 

Come on Vineyards...new year, new start.....

TheVineyards

 Gertrud Bell also terminated her life with an overdose of sleeping pills. She was very unhappy with the events after WWI. If you don´t know who she was, it was she who trained Lawrence and gave him her maps and contacts.

x2

I do not need to apologise!!!!

if some kurdish people want to make an apologise, they should do it as a kurdish person, not for Turkish people. we know that at this time they say this regions are kurdish. nobody will give you and nobel award. it s already given by armenian diaspora to Orhan pamuk. maybe these ppl know another award

so? if an apologise is needed, it must be come from Armenians.  They killed turkish people when we needed them much. I really wonder why those ppl make  an apologise for the events about 100 years ago but dont wait an apologise for recent events like Hocalý?????

Its very easy to use events in history. but realities cant be changed.

I don´t understand this "delete my membersip" thing. Person asking for it is simply doing a show off. They could simply go away.

You mean 200 yalakas out of 72000000?? There should be more than that? But most ofthem are also cowards. So intersection is 200, it appears.

 So now you admit it happened, but say it was the fault of Kurds

That´s not my understanding. How have you come to that conclusion?

 From reading TheJanissary´s words

Even there were such a thing Kurds also should be blamed for it (mostly). That was my understanding. Of course you see it the way you want to see. Right eniðma?

 Right Si+++++++

I really must improve my English.... I seem to read things that are completely false

No you should improve your Turkish to read it correctly. That was written in Turkish later replaced by English words.

 I dont know what YOU are talking about, but I was talking about TheJanissary´s post  

PS LIR has just pointed out that you called me Eniðma   Please don´t use the Turkish ´Ã°´ - that makes my name ENEMA 

I dont want to be TheEnema

come on, such a well... loose nickname Doesn´t it mean the one that hits you faster than you´d thought and leaves you happy and light?

Turkish is very ambiguous language. When somebody says something it may be understood in many ways by many different people.

Eniðma iz vat yor neym vud bi ven rittýn vit Türkiþ lettýrz.

 Well that is a nicer way of putting it than being shoved up peoples ***** all day

 She´s obviously learning that ´way with words´ the Irish are known for! 

 Hmmmm I think I am the TC Enema....whether they like it or not I am shoved up their ****

TheEnema is leaving the building....

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVE!

 Sana da !  Keep up the good work

This reminds me a story about Pope John Paul my frined had told me.
On his visit to NewYork USA, just leaving the plane one reporter of a newspaper
asks this question to the Pope:
"What do you think about the brothels in New York?"
To which The Pope replies surprisedly:
"Is there any brothel in New York?"
And the following day the newspaper headline read like:
"Pope´s first question upon his arrival:
Is there any brothel in New York?"

Ý 

Quoting AlphaF

Dun aksam TV de, konusmacilari arasinda Adalet Agaoglu, Nuray Mert, Oral Calislar, Deniz Bolukbasi, Vural Volkan, Ercan Karakas ve bir de eski Buyukelcimiz olan, mahut "OZUR DILEME BELGESI" ni konu alan bir tartismayi dinledim.

 

Konusmacilarin tamaminin gayelerinin,  orada tarihi carpitip dinleyenleri kandirmak degil, iyi veya kotu butun yanlari ile olayin esasini ve cozumlerini tartismak olmasi gerekir diye dusunuyordum.

 

Ozurluler,  genelde konusmalarina "1915 de Turklerin bir azinlik grubunu soy kirimina ugrattigi kesindir.... ...." diye basliyorlardi ve "Turklerin ozur dilemesi tarihi bir borctur..... ..."  anlaminda sozlerle gorus belirtiyorlardi. Onlara gore tarih 1915 de basliyordu ve sahne Turklerin bu mazlum azinlik grubuna saldirisi ile aciliyordu. Tarihin oncesi - daha da onemlisi o gunlerde ortalikta olmayan bizler gibileri cok yakindan ilgilendiren -  bir gelecegi yok gibi idi....

 

Anlattiklarina gore o gunun Osmanli Imparatorlugunda ve Anadolusunda, sadece eli kanli Turkler ve nadide cicek bahceleri halinde serpistirilmis mazlum azinlik gruplari vardi. O karma nufus, Imparatorlugun refahindan ve geleceginden birlikte sorumlu degildiler. Bir tarafta, ortak vatan kavraminin bilincinde olan, Osmanli halki Canakkalede dovusup, olurken, baskalarinin diger tarafta - firsattan istifade - kendi cikarlarina gore dusmanla isbirligi yapmasi, gayet masum ve normaldi. (not: Bunu acikca soylemediler, fakat soylediklerinden anladigim bu 

 

Kafamdan, Oral Calislar´in yerinde olsam ve konusmama, bence tarih acisindan cok daha gercekci olan, " Gerci, Osmanli I. Cihan Savasi sonunda, Canakkalede dunyaya karsi ulkesini korumaya calisirken, Doguda bazi azinlik gruplari Anadoluyu isgal etmeye calisan Fransiz ve Rus ordularina yandas cikmislardi , amma.."diye baslama sorumlulugunu hissetsem, lafi nasil cevirir de neticede yine de sadece "Turkler ozur dilemelidirler ......." kivaminda baglayabilirdim diye dusundum. Isin icinden cikamadim.

 

Sonra,  "Osmanli Devleti gercekten belli etnik gruplari  hedef aliyormuydu, yoksa butun asilerin ustune yurumeyi - o zamanin sartlari icinde -  asli bir gorev olarak mi addediyordu? " diye dusundum. "Asiler Turk olunca ne yapiliyordu? Mustafa Kemalín uzerine de Hilafet Ordusu cikartilmamismiydi? Ataturk, Hilafet Ordusu ile basa cikamasaydi hali nice olacakti ? " sorularini sordum kendime.

 

Oral Calislar paralelinde gorus sahibi olan arkadaslardan, bu isin icinden cikabilecek var mi? Yoksa tarih gercekten tehcir ile mi basliyor?

Oral Calislara tavsiyem, elindeki ozur mektubunu, sahsen,  koy meydanlarinda Turk halkinin imzasina acmasi..

 Why don´t you be brave and post this in English... You know better Mr.Alph..

He is advising to one of the intellects (Oral Calislar) that He should read  ´I am apologizing´ letter in villages to Turkish people..

Practically he is trying to say he will be lynched or not welcomed there..

In my opinion, it is NOT a nice thing to say about people in Turkey.

Because those people have always always backed wronged, mistreated people..

Because they are Anatolians. Because  they are from the soils which carry thousands of years of civilization..

Lets assume that nothing happened, lets say that not hundreds of thousands. Say ´only hundered people got killed´ and for the sake of argument, lets say that  it is all a local governer´s mistake..

Anatolian people will say ´look my brother, something happened, our boys made a mistake, I am sorry about it´.

I think people who are tearing their hair off should read what is said in that letter again.

They are not apologizing for ´genocide´ or anything like that..All they are saying is :

"My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters. I apologize to them."

Basically they are talking about TODAY. 

They are feeling embarrassed about ´the insensitivity and the denials of the events´ TODAY.

Impoliteness and unfairness are their main objections..

And of course, they are intellectuals. They are polite people. They could not say that ´I am ashamed of sharing the same citizenship with those savages in this  country´. Could they?

Anyway, I am glad those people initiated this apology letter. 

And I am really happy that people in Turkey are able to TALK about it..

Quoting AlphaF

Dun aksam TV de, konusmacilari arasinda Adalet Agaoglu, Nuray Mert, Oral Calislar, Deniz Bolukbasi, Vural Volkan, Ercan Karakas ve bir de eski Buyukelcimiz olan, mahut "OZUR DILEME BELGESI" ni konu alan bir tartismayi dinledim.

 

Konusmacilarin tamaminin gayelerinin,  orada tarihi carpitip dinleyenleri kandirmak degil, iyi veya kotu butun yanlari ile olayin esasini ve cozumlerini tartismak olmasi gerekir diye dusunuyordum.

 

Ozurluler,  genelde konusmalarina "1915 de Turklerin bir azinlik grubunu soy kirimina ugrattigi kesindir.... ...." diye basliyorlardi ve "Turklerin ozur dilemesi tarihi bir borctur..... ..."  anlaminda sozlerle gorus belirtiyorlardi. Onlara gore tarih 1915 de basliyordu ve sahne Turklerin bu mazlum azinlik grubuna saldirisi ile aciliyordu. Tarihin oncesi - daha da onemlisi o gunlerde ortalikta olmayan bizler gibileri cok yakindan ilgilendiren -  bir gelecegi yok gibi idi....

 

Anlattiklarina gore o gunun Osmanli Imparatorlugunda ve Anadolusunda, sadece eli kanli Turkler ve nadide cicek bahceleri halinde serpistirilmis mazlum azinlik gruplari vardi. O karma nufus, Imparatorlugun refahindan ve geleceginden birlikte sorumlu degildiler. Bir tarafta, ortak vatan kavraminin bilincinde olan, Osmanli halki Canakkalede dovusup, olurken, baskalarinin diger tarafta - firsattan istifade - kendi cikarlarina gore dusmanla isbirligi yapmasi, gayet masum ve normaldi. (not: Bunu acikca soylemediler, fakat soylediklerinden anladigim bu 

 

Kafamdan, Oral Calislar´in yerinde olsam ve konusmama, bence tarih acisindan cok daha gercekci olan, " Gerci, Osmanli I. Cihan Savasi sonunda, Canakkalede dunyaya karsi ulkesini korumaya calisirken, Doguda bazi azinlik gruplari Anadoluyu isgal etmeye calisan Fransiz ve Rus ordularina yandas cikmislardi , amma.."diye baslama sorumlulugunu hissetsem, lafi nasil cevirir de neticede yine de sadece "Turkler ozur dilemelidirler ......." kivaminda baglayabilirdim diye dusundum. Isin icinden cikamadim.

 

Sonra,  "Osmanli Devleti gercekten belli etnik gruplari  hedef aliyormuydu, yoksa butun asilerin ustune yurumeyi - o zamanin sartlari icinde -  asli bir gorev olarak mi addediyordu? " diye dusundum. "Asiler Turk olunca ne yapiliyordu? Mustafa Kemalín uzerine de Hilafet Ordusu cikartilmamismiydi? Ataturk, Hilafet Ordusu ile basa cikamasaydi hali nice olacakti ? " sorularini sordum kendime.

 

Oral Calislar paralelinde gorus sahibi olan arkadaslardan, bu isin icinden cikabilecek var mi? Yoksa tarih gercekten tehcir ile mi basliyor?

Oral Calislara tavsiyem, elindeki ozur mektubunu, sahsen,  koy meydanlarinda Turk halkinin imzasina acmasi..

Such a great point of view... I was keeping myself hard to stay away from this "needless" apology thread...

But now i feel like to say a couple of words here...

First of all, people living on these lands nowadays has no responsibilty to apology from anyone... because i wasnt in that war nor the rest... what we have to do now, to my mind, is just to look at the history and get our lessons from it and work more in order to have brighter future and not to make the same mistakes...

Secondly, i see this "apology" event again as creating a chaos and take the attention on something else and cover up whats going on really... It was always like this in Turkey...

Thirdly, as Alphaf said, what happened those times was during "WORLD WAR I", did you hear me clearly? I am saying once more it was a WORLD WAR I ?

So who will apologize from all the Turks were killed? From all those british, anzacs killed there?

now your answer comes, it was told by "Emin Colasan" who is very well known columnist and writer. His answer was very clear...

The responsibles of what happened on those times are only but only the imperialist (the Entente Power) countries...

So it is really hard to understand, why i should apologize from someone because of the events happened in 1915... It was a God damned WORLD WAR...

It was a sad situation that nearly half of the world was dead in those lands...

But if Turks are supposed to apology?! then how about the rest?

I call everybody to a common sense here... why on earth we still keep up talking in those bloody history... arent we read enough? arent we told enough? 

What i expect from governers actually is... just to come together and say.. "we are neighbour countries, we should forget what happened in past sadly, and we should work on agreements on beneficial issues for our future..."

but i already know that... i wont be breathing if they ever try to say this... 

 YES,YES,YES. totally agree

Last night I watched another program about this apology thing. Doðu Ergil whose name appeared in this apology list admitted that he was not contacted about the text apperaed on that website and admitted that he instead would formulate it as:

"I feel sorry for those who ..."

Apperantly someone put the apology text and added the names without telling (many of) them what they were upto supporting exactly.