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1914/1915/Young Turks/ Sarikamis/Armenian issue. Some events from history.
(25 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
1 [2] 3
10.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:15 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

read the "ermeni tehciri" of Yusuf Halacoglu. there it`s clearly stated that the armenian casulties were around 500,000.

 

on the other hand, the number of Turks that were killed by armenians was almost the same.

11.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:19 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

read the "ermeni theciri" of Yusuf Halacoglu. there it`s clearly stated that the armenian casulties were around 500,000.

 

I watched him one week ago on TV8 saying 9000 killed byKurdish gangs and 40000 dying of other causes (diseases etc) on the way. The quotes from the book I have given above are his figures about the number of deported.

12.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:33 pm

 

Quoting si++

I watched him one week ago on TV8 saying 9000 killed byKurdish gangs and 40000 dying of other causes (diseases etc) on the way. The quotes from the book I have given above are his figures about the number of deported.

 

TEHCÝR’DE ÖLÜ SAYISI TARTIÞMALARI
Ýttihat ve Terakki’nin aldýðý tehcir kararýnýn, soykýrým amacý taþýyýp taþýmadýðý tartýþmalarý, günümüzde bile üzerinde mutabakat olmayan birçok soruyu da bünyesinde barýndýrýyor.
Ýttihat ve Terakki yönetiminin aldýðý karar tüm Emenileri mi kapsýyordu? Osmanlý topraklarýnda ne kadar Ermeni yaþýyordu ve bunlarýn ne kadarý tehcir edilmiþti? Tehcir sonucu ne kadar Ermeni hayatýný kaybetmiþti? 90 yýlýn tartýþmasý iþte bu sorularýn etrafýnda þekilleniyor. 1915 olaylarýnda Türk olsun Ermeni olsun yitirilen canlarýn pazarlýðý yapýlýyor, rakamlar adeta açýk artýrmaya çýkartýlmýþçýsýna deðiþiyor. Ermeniler yýllarca tehcirde hayatýný kaybeden Ermeni sayýsýnýn en az 1.5 milyon olduðunu savunuyor. Buna karþýlýk Türk resmi kurumlarýnýn verdiði sayý 300 bin civarýnda. Rakamlarýn ardýndaki tek deðiþmeyen gerçek ise 1915’in herkes için acý demek olduðu...

 

 

Þükrü Elekdað: Ermeni katliamýndan ölen Türk sayýsýnýn 517 bin olduðu söyleniyor. Tabii Ermeni rakamlarýnýn ne olduðu konusunda ise deðiþik rakamlar var. Bunlar 300 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyorlar, Tarihçi McCarthy 600 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyor. Türk Tarih Kurumu’nun ileri sürdüðü rakamlar bunlarýn daha altýnda.

 

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/321123.asp

13.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:44 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

hahahaaa what happened to the "old value of 1,500,000"?

 

your "new value" just proves the Turkish thesis right, because according to Turkey around 500,000 of Armenians were killed. as we know hundreds of thousands of Armenians survived the relocation, we get approximately the same number ~500,000. I wonder what our great nobel prize winner historian Orhan Pamuk thinks now.

 

Where did I say it was 1.5 million ..eh?

The sources I read was saying that about 600.000..

You and si++ have to decide what the real value is..

400.000 is the value given by the army..

So what you are saying is army lied about the number...

14.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:48 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

Where did I say it was 1.5 million ..eh?

The sources I read was saying that about 600.000..

You and si++ have to decide what the real value is..

400.000 is the value given by the army..

So what you are saying is army lied about the number...

 

according to the great authority and historian Orhan Pamuk, it`s 1 million and according to the armenian diaspora it`s 1.5 million.

 

what I`m saying is the number of 900,000 these armenian supporters came up with just proves the Turkish thesis right about the number of casualties.

15.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:50 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

TEHCÝR’DE ÖLÜ SAYISI TARTIÞMALARI
Ýttihat ve Terakki’nin aldýðý tehcir kararýnýn, soykýrým amacý taþýyýp taþýmadýðý tartýþmalarý, günümüzde bile üzerinde mutabakat olmayan birçok soruyu da bünyesinde barýndýrýyor.
Ýttihat ve Terakki yönetiminin aldýðý karar tüm Emenileri mi kapsýyordu? Osmanlý topraklarýnda ne kadar Ermeni yaþýyordu ve bunlarýn ne kadarý tehcir edilmiþti? Tehcir sonucu ne kadar Ermeni hayatýný kaybetmiþti? 90 yýlýn tartýþmasý iþte bu sorularýn etrafýnda þekilleniyor. 1915 olaylarýnda Türk olsun Ermeni olsun yitirilen canlarýn pazarlýðý yapýlýyor, rakamlar adeta açýk artýrmaya çýkartýlmýþçýsýna deðiþiyor. Ermeniler yýllarca tehcirde hayatýný kaybeden Ermeni sayýsýnýn en az 1.5 milyon olduðunu savunuyor. Buna karþýlýk Türk resmi kurumlarýnýn verdiði sayý 300 bin civarýnda. Rakamlarýn ardýndaki tek deðiþmeyen gerçek ise 1915’in herkes için acý demek olduðu...

 

 

Þükrü Elekdað: Ermeni katliamýndan ölen Türk sayýsýnýn 517 bin olduðu söyleniyor. Tabii Ermeni rakamlarýnýn ne olduðu konusunda ise deðiþik rakamlar var. Bunlar 300 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyorlar, Tarihçi McCarthy 600 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyor. Türk Tarih Kurumu’nun ileri sürdüðü rakamlar bunlarýn daha altýnda.

 

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/321123.asp

 

Here´s a quote from McCarthy:

 

During World War I, the Armenians of Ottoman Anatolia were caught up in the worst disaster to strike the modern Middle East. Estimates of the number of Ottoman Armenians who died in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence that followed have grown larger over the years. At the end of the wartime period, Armenian representatives to the Paris Peace Conference and Armenian publicists estimated that 600,000 to 800,000 had died. In recent times, the figure 1.5 million is frequently asserted, sometimes rising to 2.5 million in less temperate pronouncements. Even the smaller of these numbers would mean that nearly all the Armenians died, a contention belied by the existence of those making the estimates.

The method of finding the actual number of Armenian dead is deceptively simple-subtract the number of Armenians who survived the wars from those who were present at war´s beginning. This does not strictly provide statistics of mortality, but rather "population loss", because an unknowable number of children were born in the wartime period and a number of adults and children   would   have   died   of   natural   causes   under   normal circumstances.   The   result,   however,   is   a   good   surrogate   for mortality.

It is commonly believed that the Armenians of Ottoman Anatolia were nearly all deported to the Arab Provinces, and that high Armenian mortality was a result of the deportation. This was not the case. Because some deportees who were sent to Syria and Iraq moved to Egypt and Europe during and after the wars and some returned to Anatolia, it is impossible to estimate the number of the deportees with absolute accuracy. It can be seen, however, that the largest group of Armenian refugees were those who fled to the Southern Caucasus. These were not deported to Syria or Iraq. They fled north in three waves: The Russian Army invaded eastern Anatolia in May of 1915, relieving the Armenians of Van, who had seized the city from the Ottomans. When the Russian Army was temporarily forced to retreat from Anatolia, the Armenians of the region the Russians had conquered accompanied them. The Russians returned in 1916, conquering most of eastern Anatolia, and many Armenians returned to their homes. In 1918, the Ottomans advanced, and Armenians departed for the Southern Caucasus once again. Many of these returned after the Ottomans surrendered to the Allies in October of 1918, but they left once again when Turkish Republican forces retook the region in 1920. The 400,000 refugees in the USSR in Table Five were the survivors of a much larger group. Contemporary accounts indicate that the refugees starved to death in great numbers, even being forced to resort to cannibalism. Well in excess of 500,000 must have gone north. In addition, many, perhaps most, of the Armenians who went to Europe and the Americas were never deported. Those who fled to Iran were likewise not deported. It can thus be seen that most Anatolian Armenians were not deported, although their fate as refugees was misery and death.

More Armenians were forced migrants from the eastern Anatolia war than were deported, and they unquestionably suffered higher mortality. Muslims joined in their suffering. When the Russians and Armenians advanced it was the turn of the Muslims to flee. More than a million Muslims were forced migrants.

There were 1,465 million Armenians in Ottoman Anatolia in 1912, before the wars began. (This does not include the 28,000 Armenian residents of Southern Haleb Province, which became part of Syria after the world war nor the Armenians of Istanbul Province and Ottoman Europe, who were neither killed nor deported during World War I, although some were conscripted.) At wars´ end, 881,000 remained alive, a loss of 584,000, or 41%.[21] Most of these were victims of the war fought between the Muslims and Armenians between 1915 and 1920, directly or indirectly through starvation and disease. To put the Armenian loss into perspective, it should be noted that the Muslims of the war zone suffered equally horrific loss: The Muslim population of the Van Province decreased by 62%, that of Bitlis by 42%, that of Erzurum by 31%. Not coincidentally, these were the provinces of greatest conflict between Ottoman and Russian armies and between Muslim and Armenian civilians.

16.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:54 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

according to the great authority and historian Orhan Pamuk, it`s 1 million and according to the armenian diaspora it`s 1.5 million.

 

what I`m saying is the number of 900,000 these armenian supporters came up with just proves the Turkish thesis right about the number of casualties.

 

I am not sure..

So far, The army´s figure was 422.000 all together including survivers.

Now you are saying that total dead was 500.000..

Are you saying that Halacoglu admitted that figure?

if he did then army was lying..(are you saying that the army was lying? )

Could you give us the source then we all learn where Halacoglu accepted that value?

As far as I know the value was 300.000 (offical one)..

Definately one of you is wrong up there

who is that?

si++ or you lol

17.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 02:58 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

I am not sure..

So far, The army´s figure was 422.000 all together including survivers.

Now you are saying that total dead was 500.000..

Are you saying that Halacoglu admitted that figure?

if he did then army was lying..(are you saying that the army was lying? )

Could you give us the source then we all learn where Halacoglu accepted that value?

As far as I know the value was 300.000 (offical one)..

Definately one of you is wrong up there

who is that?

si++ or you lol

 

Everybody says something.

During World War I, the Armenians of Ottoman Anatolia were caught up in the worst disaster to strike the modern Middle East. Estimates of the number of Ottoman Armenians who died in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence that followed have grown larger over the years. At the end of the wartime period, Armenian representatives to the Paris Peace Conference and Armenian publicists estimated that 600,000 to 800,000 had died. In recent times, the figure 1.5 million is frequently asserted, sometimes rising to 2.5 million in less temperate pronouncements. Even the smaller of these numbers would mean that nearly all the Armenians died, a contention belied by the existence of those making the estimates

18.       si++
3785 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 03:01 pm

 

Quoting si++

Everybody says something.

During World War I, the Armenians of Ottoman Anatolia were caught up in the worst disaster to strike the modern Middle East. Estimates of the number of Ottoman Armenians who died in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence that followed have grown larger over the years. At the end of the wartime period, Armenian representatives to the Paris Peace Conference and Armenian publicists estimated that 600,000 to 800,000 had died. In recent times, the figure 1.5 million is frequently asserted, sometimes rising to 2.5 million in less temperate pronouncements. Even the smaller of these numbers would mean that nearly all the Armenians died, a contention belied by the existence of those making the estimates

 

Even pamuk the shameless liar gave us a 1,000,000.

19.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 03:02 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

I am not sure..

So far, The army´s figure was 422.000 all together including survivers.

Now you are saying that total dead was 500.000..

Are you saying that Halacoglu admitted that figure?

if he did then army was lying..

Could you give us the source then we all learn where Halacoglu accepted that value. As far as I know the value was 300.000 (offical one)..

Definately one of you is wrong up there

who is that?

si++ or you lol

 

Þükrü Elekdað: Ermeni katliamýndan ölen Türk sayýsýnýn 517 bin olduðu söyleniyor. Tabii Ermeni rakamlarýnýn ne olduðu konusunda ise deðiþik rakamlar var. Bunlar 300 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyorlar, Tarihçi McCarthy 600 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyor. Türk Tarih Kurumu’nun ileri sürdüðü rakamlar bunlarýn daha altýnda.

 

 

 

300,000, 500,000 or 600,000. it`s impossible to know the exact number, but the total number of armenians who were subject to deportation, that they came up with, 900,000 proves that the total number of armenian who died must be very close to what the Turkish thesis says. it`s documented that hundreds of thousands of armenians resetled in various locations of the ottoman empire after the deportation, so that proves the number of armenian casualties were much closer to what Turkey says than what the armenian liars say, 1,500,000. the census records prove that there were not even more than 1.2 million of armenians at that time, but somehow according to these armenian liars the Turks killed more than 1.2 million!

20.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 12 Jan 2009 Mon 03:11 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

Þükrü Elekdað: Ermeni katliamýndan ölen Türk sayýsýnýn 517 bin olduðu söyleniyor. Tabii Ermeni rakamlarýnýn ne olduðu konusunda ise deðiþik rakamlar var. Bunlar 300 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyorlar, Tarihçi McCarthy 600 bin rakamýný ileri sürüyor. Türk Tarih Kurumu’nun ileri sürdüðü rakamlar bunlarýn daha altýnda.

 

 

 

300,000, 500,000 or 600,000. it`s impossible to know the exact number, but the total number of armenians who were subject to deportation, that they came up with, 900,000 proves that the total number of armenian who died must be very close to what the Turkish thesis says. it`s documented that hundreds of thousands of armenians resetled in various locations of the ottoman empire after the deportation, so that proves the number of armenian casualties were much closer to what Turkey says than what the armenian liars say, 1,500,000. the census records prove that there were not even more than 1.2 million of armenians at that time, but somehow according to these armenian liars the Turks killed more than 1.2 million!

 

But :

Could you give us the source then we all learn where Halacoglu accepted that value of 500.000?

It is quite important because it will tell us that army was not telling the truth and also it will contradict with what our official thesis was during the years..

And also, it will tell us which one of you is not telling the truth as you both seem to represent the official thesis

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