What is with the pointy things on the head? 

chastity belt...to prevent special kisses??

Well, I think that that would definetly deter a potential suitor. That is an amazing picture, though. Fascinating. I´ve never seen anything like it.

One more thing: does this make anyone think of Darth Maul?

 I deleted the graphic only to avoid repition.  Last October, our tour guide in SultanAhmet mosque said that custom of "covering" is never discussed in the Quran, that it is a custom of certain groups, I assume he meant arabs, but I think that in the time of the scriptures it was a universal practice.  I think ancient Heybrews did it also, but got over it.   Anyway, I agree it has nothing to do with religon.

 ooops, mr. long, what you wrote is a hoax. pre-islamic women were definetly free and uncovered. for this kadija herself stands as a proof. they possibly could cover themselves in protection from the sun or sand but it was never from a direct religious dress code, as there no such.

as for hebrew women covering themselves, its again a false inforamtion. they indeed covered themselves when they wanted to become prostitues. thats why they hid their identity under veils, so that no one could see them. and they often would sit nearby the roads leading to main cities or towns (for certain reasons).

so, covering and hiding your face was something shameful.

Jewish women at a wedding party
Samarkand, Uzbekistan, 1992

http://www.bh.org.il/Links/JewishWomen.asp

Jewish Women of the Hijab and Burqa II

March 10, 2008

Moshiach. Now.

http://thisisbabylon.net/category/israel/

I was walking down 13th Avenue in Brooklyn’s Hasidic neighborhood of Boro Park a few weeks ago, and I saw a woman walking down the street decked out in a hijab and an abaya.

My first thought was that she was an observant Muslim woman — there is no shortage of hijabi women in Brooklyn — but her Hasidic female walking companion and her shopping bags made me realize she was Jewish. My realization of her Jewishness was followed soon by a sense of anxiety.

“Please tell me this woman is Persian, please let this woman be Persian”, I muttered under my breath as the woman approached. Many Iranian Jews in America continue to wear the clothing of their homeland, with some older Jewish women retaining the chadors they had worn in Iran. As she approached, I could tell by her accent — the woman was Hasidic and she was apparently a follower of the hijab and abaya-advocating movement of ultra-Orthodox women taking hold in Israel.

“They’re here,” I thought to myself. “They’re here in Boro Park.”

Friday’s Times Online featured a story about the Jewish women of the veil, and profiled “Sarah” and “M”, two of now 100 women in Beit Shemesh who have begun to go about fully veiled. “M” tells of how her first encounter with a woman in a hijab sal was at the Western Wall in Jerusalem:

“I saw a woman who looked like an Arab and I was scared. I got near her, to try to determine why she was there, and saw that she was praying in Hebrew. I began to talk to her and became curious and then attended her classes,” she said.

The woman M met that day was a religious instructor in Beit Shemesh, and the founder of the sal style. “We have been criticised by so many in the community who see what we are doing as the opposite of Jewish law. Many women have stopped wearing the sal because of pressure from their husbands or rabbis,” said M, who adds that her family persuaded her to stop wearing the garment.

“Muslim women are imitating Jews to try to gain God’s favour with modesty. The truth is that the women of Israel are lessening in God’s eyes because the Arabs are more modest in dress. If the Jews want to conquer the Arabs in this land they must enhance their modesty,” added M, who covered her face for over a year, but currently wears just a loose cloak over her garments.

 One hijab-wearing self-described “Conservative Jew” talks about how she has endured difficulties since taking on hijab and jilbab.

I can’t think that this is happening in a vacuum. One commenter on the charedi newswire Vos Iz Neias implied that the same person who had rocks thrown on 13th Avenue at an “immodest store” in January was behind the recent concert ban.

Are we really witnessing the beginning of the ultra-radicalization of Orthodox Judaism? And if we are, what effect will this have on already-fragmented American Jewry? How will this impact those of us who have never had such a phenomenon impact them directly? The concert ban, as was shown, was just a recycled one from the charedi community in Jerusalem — how many more things will be imported from Meah Shearim and Beit Shemesh?

 That certainly was interesting...the blog had some interesting posts....thanks for posting it.

 Nice photo and interesting website too. I once had a photograph of a Yemenite Jewish bride that looked amazingly similar to a traditional Moroccan bride.

cedars, your posts are complete crap, sorry to say so.

a few iranian orthodox jewish women (or even one woman)  talk crap (without any ground in torah) and you announce it as if all jews think so. and of course the website you sourced from is extremely interesting (worthy to trust, ).

a few uzbek jews made a traditional clothing for their wedding and you post it as if they wear that everyday. i know what uzbekistan is.

even i would wear a cover if i lived in iran, uzbekistan, afghanistan, saudi and etc.

end of story! i dont want to discuss with you, cedars! you are exact copy of alameda.

you never listen, but just go on like a machine, like a zombie.

BYE!!!

I am sorry but all of you are wrong about wearing el Hijab and Muslim women.

Though I do NOT wear it myself, but muslim women should cover her head and wear long dresses till her ankles and long sleeved aswell.  Oh no no, it is not like the photo sent by ROSE but the all the hair

I am sorry but all of you are wrong about wearing el Hijab and Muslim women.

Though I do NOT wear it myself, but muslim women should cover her head and wear long dresses till her ankles and long sleeved aswell. This is mentioned in the Quran.   Oh no no, it is not like the photo sent by ROSE but women must cover all their hair and neck (the whole face is kept uncovered of course)

Unfortunately I do not have a photo to show you.

Bluetooth Burqa

Kison says the burqa has a "digital layer" that incorporates a Bluetooth antenna, which lets women "decide for themselves where they want to position themselves virtually." Nearby mobile phones that also use Bluetooth will light up with any small file a woman chooses to broadcast as her identity -- a photo, a cartoon, a text file or even a sound clip.

B"H

I´m Jewish. My family is half Lithuanian via Greece, and my mother´s side is Yemenite.  I wear hijab every day; the only exception is when I attend shul because we go to Chabad, and we are expected to respect the minhagim of Ashkenazim as they would respect ours in our community.  But I believe the normal mitpakhat or tikhel when tied at the nape is simply not functional, and wearing the hijab or shayla enables the wearer to maintain a total level of elegant tzniut with regard to halakhah; plus, she may wear low-cut tops beneath.  I do own shaitels, but believe this to be an inferior custom for purposes of maarit ayin, or giving lesser Jews and any gentile the wrong impression; forgive me, but I´m convinced it is a main reason the Muslim world resents us so, and I don´t blame them.  Most of my Muslim friends never even knew Jewish women are also obligated to cover hair, and the result is I´m often accused of being a Muslimah-wanna-be.  Meanwhile, I´m just trying to maintain modesty, and my children do not yet know what a Muslimah is.  Every one they´ve seen they get excited over and run to her children to ask where the go to shul.  But the hijab is practical, comfortable, respectful, elegant, and the next best thing to the Yemenite gargush.

B"H

Look, I agree with you about the p.c. folly, but the problem is that no one can legislate with regard to dignity, because it is a personal matter.  Dignity is a feeling or consciousness, not a code.  I knew a girl in high school who after joining the navy also became a stripper.  She was discharged (surprise, surprise) for bad conduct, but to her, she didn´t feel dignity when she donned that uniform; she felt it when some guy gave her a $1 wrapped around a roll of paper and slapped him.  That was her view of dignity.

Covering one´ s head or body, whether you are an Arab or a Jew, or whether you are a man or a woman is obviously a good and necessary protection against the climate in that area of the world. It is also understable why people prefer loose clothing in that area. Anyone who has been in a desert knows  that no attire can beat that of a Tuareg in that climate.

The circus act starts when someone starts telling you that this is a divine order and that everything else is a sin. Can you blame Eskimos covering themselves fully in furs to stand the Artctic cold ?;  consider however, how an Eskimo travelling to Los Angeles in his local outfit would look, if he insisted fur coats were his God´s orders.

 Well crafted and wonderfully logical point.  I remember when I was in Saudi Arabia having to wear a burqa when I left the compound.  It was practical, protected me from the sun and constant sand that always flies around, but as a westerner, it made me resent that I HAD to wear it.  My problem with the situation was that I had no choice, no freedom and no right to say NO. 

 The thing is, hijab is actually an order from ALLAH to Muslims in Quran but not niqap

What you say about Eskimos is a logic but still in our case, in Ýslam its different, and what proves that, you dont find muslims women wear hijab only at Arab countries

But you find also at Westerns countries, Indonesia, and every where else

You find it in Türkiye and well educated women refuse to take it off so you cant say they are depressed by husbands or families

No one forced them to stand for it !

So i believe that has nothing to do with climate has it ?!

To make what am talking about clear

Ým talking about hijab, where you cover your hair ..not when women covering their faces too

Covering the faces is and never was an order from ALLAH, never mentioned in Quran, and not ordered by Rasul SAV at any hadith.

Ý cant say why they wear niqap..i fail to understand actually

And i personally know many cases when its the women choice to do so, even some cases the husband refuse and woman fighting her way to it

So i cant say they are forced, of course some are but some chosen it that way !

They dont think not wearing it is a sin tho, but they believe wearing it is better .

PS: Niqap when women cover their faces excluding the eyes

I agree with everything you are saying Canli and I do believe that many women would wear a burqa and other various covers even if they don´t have to.   However, there are many places in the middle east, like Saudi (I was there in the 1980s and not sure if it has changed), where a woman is required to wear a complete covering whether they want to or not.  There were even times when the religious police would scold and even hit women who where not properly covered.   

Not many places at ME actually this happen  in Saudi Arabia only, i dont know about Ýran, from the sight of it i think its forced there as well.

 Ã believe its still same case at SA Elisabeth, i heard the religious police hit the man who is with the woman tho not the woman !

Sad it is !

But at Riyad and Jedda things are different.

That has very different background, history and reasons than the ones discussed in this thread. A difference in terminology is necessary here, and I do believe that türban (as opposed to geleneksel baþöürtüleri)  is a political symbol, which has very little to do with religion. I don´t have time to get into it, but you should have a look at the name Necmettin Erbakan and the development of the türban sorunu in Turkey. You will understand that ´those educated women who refuse to take it off´ aren´t so much concerned about their religion.. (ofcourse this is a generalisation, but ý have seen them so often: wearing tight clothes, lots of make-up and then putting on a headscarf to cover their feminine charms. Yeah sure. So much for religion! I don´t buy it!)

Thanks for your welcome-back wish CANLI ITs good to be back!

B"H

Oye, Y-Love posted this; what´s with the controversy all of a sudden in the Chassidic community regarding burqa?  So it´s not a jewish minhag, but hijab is.  And though Y-Love is border-line Chabadnik/Tzfat chassid/Breslover, what would he say about all the Ethiopian and Lumba Jews in Galabiya and niqab?  :S  he never replied to me.........

 even pearcing in nose...

Elisabeth,

No one here is advocating that women should be running around naked; all should be decently dressed. Even a choice to dress like a clown, at all times,  in public should be one´s own personal choice.

But telling others this clown outfit is god´s order and enforcing it on public  is ridiculus and has nothing to do with Islam.

I agree with what you said about burqas not being part of Islam.  But even if it where, people (all people and not just men) should have a right to choose whether or not they follow the religion and its teachings.  A persons choices about what to follow and what not to follow is between him/her and God.   

 Among muslims there is lots of disagreement whether the Quran states if a woman must veil/cover herself and if so, what should be covered.  For me, if there is a ´God´ up there, who sent ´the people´ a book with rules on how to live, why was it written in such a way that it is so easily to intepret words your way? That is just asking for oppression of the weak by the strong and the imposition of rules on the weak by the strong.

 Maybe it´s just me, but I don´t think it should matter if it is part of the religion or not.  It should still be up to the interpretation and descretion of the individual whether or not to wear it.  I think all humans should have the right to read something, come to their own conclusion and then follow his or her heart.

 Ãm sure there are different reasons and history backgrounds why women wear hijab or cover themselves at any way

Women used to cover up before Ýslam too, so i cant say that is because of Ýslam.

But now to us muslim women we do cover our hair and bodies..hijab that is for that reason only, that its an order from ALLAH

Ý dont know why its much easier for you to serach for different reasons why muslim women wear hijab all over the world rather than accept our reason ´we muslim women´ ?!

Women wear it every where at the world not just at some places so you can get a historical reason for that

Women wear it in German...in South Africa, in Australia, at Saudi Arabia, at Ýran, at Egypt, at Türkiye, even in China..etc

All those wear it would have a special reason for each country rather than the obvious one that we wear it because its an order from ALLAH ?!

Women wear it as they want, some cover themselves all together, some wear it as it should be, some wear tiny clothes that show their bodies...thats women´s preferences

Sometimes forced upon them as in saudi Arabis

Who told you we dont have same things here as well ?!

Yes many women wear hijab in a way that show their bodies, so tight clothes, wear makeup and more too.

But at same time, you cant judge her for what she wear and say it has nothing to do with religion !

She wears it for that, doesnt matter how she applies it, its her business only with ALLAH

No matter how much i or you agree with what they wear or not, but would you rather we have in each Muslim country a religious police walk around order women how they wear their own hijab ?!

Ý believe not.

We have the order, everyone apply it as she likes, even if she doesnt apply it at all, ALLAH will judge us not anyone else, and i guess as a muslim i prefer it that way.

 The key word is "choice".   But it appears for some of these women it´s not a choice.

Exactly! I can understand the logic behind burqa in desert countries, but it should still be up to each person whether to wear it or not. If a country orders women to wear it, it should be the same for men too. I wonder how long that order would last, should men be forced to wear it too

Canli,

I dont care what any woman wears, so long as she does not tell me it is god´s or Kuran´s order.

No place in Kuran does it say the woman should cover her hair. The actual command to the women is not to expose their breasts provacatively, and hide them by letting their head cover hang down loose over their breasts. Arab women who already need to cover their head against fiearce sun were shown the easiest way to hide their boobs. COVER YOUR BOOBS,  WITH YOUR HEAD SCARF IF YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE - WITH SOMETHING ELSE IF YOU DONT HAVE A HEADSCARF. What is required and ordered here is modesty, not a headscarf.  There is no ban on hair.

When you claim the hair should be hidden, other idiots go further an claim the face should be hidden as well...What we obviously need are invisible women.

How you  read the same book and conclude god wants all women to hide their hair is definitely beyond me ! Yours must be a different Islam.

 Actually its very clear and doesnt need any personal  interpretation !

Look at the number of muslims women wearing hijab all over the world and you would see that too as a proof.

Our book which guide us are Quran and Sunna represnt in rasul SAV hadith, and when it come to hadith we have a science of its own to say which hadith is strong and we follow.

As you know there are degrees of hadith strong, weak, and accepted by all

Anyway, hijab is already written in Quran so we dont have any discussion about it except for those who dont want to wear it and at same time dont want to feel they are not obaying ALLAH  so they clam differntly !

As you know Quran has been deliver to us in Arabic, so people who know Arabic could read the verses and can not question it.

As in Turkish ..also in arabic words can have many meanings and it depends on the sentnce itself to deliver the wanted meaning, and only Arabs would tell the differnce or one who live and understand the culture as well

Thats why when one become Muslim he/she should read books which is accepted by highly arabic religion authority, so the translation of the books, any books would explain exactly what meant behinde the words.

For us what it does that is Al Azhar, and for me even if i read a religious book in arabic it wont be credited to me unless it was approved by El Azhar.

Thats why publishing Quran and translation of Quran is not something everyone and anyone allowed to do.

Ýts a tricky things and carry lots of responsibilities, so if a book not credited by such authorities one shouldnt take his guidlines from it specially new muslims, some how we as muslims can put our hands on things not norm but new muslims wouldnt get the differences because they dont have the knowledge to judge.

Ýn short...hijab is an order in Ýslam..but niqab is not

Women in the past used to wear it, wives of Rasul SAV worn it for reasons at that time  now some women also wear it...we dont refuse it, but at same time its NOT an order from ALLAH

 In their country men and women are not created equal under Mohammeds eyes.. 

Great idea DD...the men would have to wear it also.  Then nobody could stare at eachother.....Heck you wouldn´t even have to have men and womens restrooms.  Who would know the difference?

 I want my boyfriend to be covered and while walking with me to keep his eyes down i dont want other women to look with lust at him 

 To a great extent I agree with you Elisabeth....however in order for the smooth operation of society, some agreement on where the baseline is has to be agreed on.  Otherwise we would have some running around naked, and others in mummy like outfits.

I draw the line at functionality. If something hinders proper function, like I trip over it, it blocks vitamine absorbtion and air circulation, or exposes my skin to infection from fungi, abrasions  or animal bites or who knows what?....there is where the line is drawn.  Aesthetics come later.  You know design or function?

That is a very nice point, that I did not raise to avoid offending our Saudi friends.

In my country, if you are flirting with a woman and did not want your relation be publicly known, you would be very careful before you took her into your car or took her anywhere, for fear she would be recognized.

In Saudia, with all ladies covered, it is very hard to tell whose wife is in whose car.

 Actually AlphaF....from my experience those who wear full coverings are perfectly recognizable by their friends.  The criteria for recognition is not the same as for uncovered women.  For instance, things you do not normally notice, such as posture, way of movement become greatly magnified.

I had an American  lady friend who background is Chinese and Italian, her husband was British. When she was traveling with him in Afghanistan, dressed in Western garments, many thought she was a gone astray Afghani woman.  She got a Burqa thinking it would solve her problems.  Immediatly people could tell from a great distance that she was a foriegner.  They could hardly restrain their laughter at seeing her walk in it.

No one can be sure of the real identuty of a totally covered woman in somebody´´s car, unless that woman has her name printed on the back of her burka.

That´s an idea - introducing reggies for covered people, this way you may feel a bit like driving. and police would be able to stop you and check if you really are the person you want to pass as

You cant even be sure if the soul in burka is actually a woman...

I can rememeber noticing size 11 shoes under burkas, and wondering...

Look CANLI, I perfectly believe that there are women like you who wear any kind of cover because they

1) believe in the reasons behind it

2) don´t necessarily believe in reasons behind it but just do it because it is an order.

And yes, since anyone should have the right to choose their own clothing there is nothing wrong with it. But let me try to explain what my problem is with burqa. It reduces women to a sexual object and an a-sexual object at the same time:

1) Sexual object: she must hide her physical features (hips, breasts, hair etc) so that men will not be attracted to her. This implies that women are viewed by men simply as sexual objects (whether that sexuality comes from the emotions of the female or the male in that point of view, doesnt really matter. it might well be that they think all women try to seduce men by their bodies on purpose instead of thinking that seeing a little boob gives any man a hard-on)

, because if they were just ´human beings like men´, they wouldn´t need protection. Shortly said: by putting a woman in an hijab, you recognize that any man around her, might see her as something sexual and may act accordingly if she wasn´t hidden away.

2) a-sexual object: the fact that it is only women who need to protect themselves from men, implies that the woman is an a-sexual object. A man doesn´t have to ´protect his body from the female looks´, because only men can feel sexual desire, a woman simply doesn´t.

Can you understand that it is this idea behind burqa that I don´t approve of? And let me make this clear: I am not saying anything about women who willingly wear veiling. As I said, it´s everybody´s own choice. If they wear it because they believe it to be a divine order, so be it, if they wear it because they think every man is a potential (eye)raper and that women don´t feel sexual desire, so be it. Who am I to say something? My reaction is to the idea behind burqa. To put it this way: The fact that I am against religion doesn´t mean that I am againsts believers, not at all. The fact that I think covering yourself is stupidity, doesn´t mean I think women who choose to cover are stupid. I genuinely hope that you understand the difference and also understand the problem of covering that I have addressed above.

B"H

Funny you say that; after 9/11, there was a big hullaballoo regarding the Muslimah bride of a Jewish convert to Islam.  The woman, born Muslim, sported the full regalia, though not herself Afghani, and I believe burqa is a Pukhto word, is it not?  Regardless, police department was sued because they pulled her over for speeding and she had no driver´s license, not because she was driving illegally, but because the Department of Motor Vehicles refused to  issue her i.d. without her removing the veil for security purposes.  She won.  Look, I cover my hair, woman; security goes both ways, right, people?  Suppose G-D-forbid she went missing.  Police ask how may we identify her?  What are we looking for besides a giant black cloak?  How do officers know if the driver is really the authorized driver?  They can´t see her eye colour or hair colour, black makes you look svelte but with it all over, how can the officer read that she is 130 lbs or 230 lbs?

 Obviously you have not heard of the Bluetooth Burqa?

Alameda,

Imagine a very crowded LADIES ONLY NIGHT in an international exhibition held in a huge sports hall in Riyadh. The hall is full of ladies enjoying the fair unmolested,  and their menfolk (all assumed to be sex maniacs, hence not allowed into the hall) are waiting outside to take their ladies home, when they come out.

Please make an intelligent guess how in that crowd and the dark of the night the two parties successfully meet, when ladies eventually do come out.

Anyone else to try his/her luck is welcome too.

 Good question alfie....but an even better one is.....if all those sex maniacs are not allowed in the hall, therefore, not present to ogle at these innocent little women, then why do the women need to cover themselves at all? 

B"H

In such a case, wouldn´t these types of women who completely veil themselves have an arranged marriage?  You don´t often see pious women in night clubs...

You would not want to hear the experiences of my blonde Swedish girl friend (not covered) inside, among all those covered ladies.

 Of course I would!! 

AlphaF

It is the same Islam and the same Quran

what is different is how YOU and others would want to understand it, and how WHOM don´t want to obey the order would want to explain it.

Anyway, the ayet 31 from Ennur sure contains the word "headscarves", headscarf means head cover which covers the hair, in the addition of "hiding their beauty", and the hair is a part from the woman´s beauty too.

who says that "the hair is a part from the woman´s beauty"? does kuran define what a woman`s beauty is? The hair of women is not beautiful for me, neither are their boobs or ass, so they can hang out totally uncovered.

I was about to answer you, but very sorry I don´t have disrespectful words in my vocabulary

just a correction

you were about to answer me, but you suddenly realized that I was so right.

you were so right in that

Be sure please, you are saying something very bad about yourself.

now that`s what I call individual enlightenment. good for you!

Are you still sure ???

and that´s what I call individual admitting from you about you

but you should know what part of  your post I mean

Don`t worry about it. Would you want me to prove you wrong in this respect?

I promise I`m very good at it.

Actually yes. I think that some people´s hair can actually take away all of their attractiveness, they should be allowed to unveil because they only make themselves more attractive putting it on

Anyone here familiar with the Ashkenazi custom of wearing wigs to cover the hair for purposes of modesty?

Exactly!

Now I would definitely hit on this chick, for example!

 Stop talking about my hair!!!   

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n4_v42/ai_14873627/

Seems the burqa covers some people´s sense of humor too........but I guess that´s appropriate because some men find a sense of humor appealling. 

B"H

thanks for the article.  I want to know where she got some of her information....and her vocabulary......sounds a lot like my satmarharah blogspot..........

 Just curious....what is "B"H"????? 

Burqa hair?

Boy howdy?

Big harpoon?

Banana hoops?

Am I close??? 

B"H

Oh, sorry....em......I´m not Turkish, in case it isn´t obvious how little I know.  I´m Khareidi, and B"H is acronymous for Barukh HASHEM, which for religious Jews is Praise THE NAME, which is one main word we call G-D because the name is so holy we are not to pronounce it.  B"H is like saying Alhamdulillah, for anyone here who is Muslim, or I guess, for a Christian like saying, Thank G-D, but is a more appropriate response to attribute all good from G-D.

Actually I dig your interpretations.

So seriously, do these girls get burqa hair?  Ya know....like hat hair????? 

 Ummm sorry but now I am even more confused than I was before.  I will go with my own interpretations. 

 I know a friend of mine with a türban suffered from hairloss..

 I have known quite a few ladies in New York who wear the sheitel....and I must say it is very difficult to distinguish them from natural hair.  I think that is actually counter the purpose of wearing them.

For those not in the know about sheitels....they have to be Kashrut as well...not just any wig will do.

Awww you had to bring it up. yes, I was supposed to colour my hair tonight but got stcuk on TC and Facebook and jewel quest arrrggghhh

regrading those wigs - I´ve seen a talk-show about orthodox Jews in Poland and the woman there had such a wig. I was surprised because it was the first time I´d heard about it. Quite a strange idea - covering your hair under other hair. The upside is you may change the haircolour as often as you please The downside is it seems like you were cheating God´s order

Well, I know that in the more conservative areas of Turkey, you can go to a photographer with your headscarf, and get a picture for your ID with hair! No, they don´t take off their headscarf (after all, its not only the photographer who sees it, but all those who ask for your id-card), no, they dont put on a wig... They PHOTOSHOP hair OVER your headscarf! Walk in any photography-shop in Konya and I bet you can get pictures made with any kind of hair you like

 Hmmm....I don´t know what to say about this one....where there is a will there is a way...so they say.  I must say it is a clever use of technology......but again, who are they fooling?

OMG, hilarious!!!

 D_K i didnt deny that some women wear hijab by force for many reasons, force of the law as in Saudi Arabia, force of family or whatever

First post was about if it is an order from ALLAH or not, and that is what i replied, Yes it ÝS an order from ALLAH written in Quran

We dont have any discussion about that...its in Quran and its enough

Ýf you obay or not, thats your choice as Muslims

The reasons why it was ordered thats another long discussion actually.

You see that  when women wear hijab that indicates they are sex object that is your opinion of course, but strange that i havent seen any woman wearing hijab used at Media in ads as sex objects but i have seen many and many ads using women who dont wear hijab in ads in a disgusting way as sex object .

That would say women in hijab seen as sex objects ?

Sry but i dont get it, mind you if i ask whom are we fooling ?!

Dont men look at women in a desirable way ?!

Do you want to say men at West look at women as their sisters or something ?!

Why is such high percentage of rape then if men dont see women there as sex objects ?!

You want to tell me men do look at women who wear tight clothes, and revealing ones same as they look at women who wear modest clothes ?!

Ým sorry, but i kind of not buying it !

Ýts not real too, statistics talk.

The idea behinde hijab that for women to wear modest clothes, and why women only wear it and not men, because women are more appealing than men....that is a fact

Compare percentage of rape made to women to those made to men !

Marwa Elshirbini was a woman who died for the reason that she refuse to take off her hijab, and she was in a western country so no system to force her to put it on, and she went through hell and she stood to her right without anyone forcing her to do so...

Ý know its kind of hard to you as Western to accept that the fact women actually want to wear it and instead you find it more closer to you that it was forced upon her..

Ýn some cases i agree its forced, but in many other cases and not only mine its our choice, because we choose to obay our God.

We accepted that religion, we believe in it, so we want to obay orders of ALLAH.

 Alpha i believe Queent already replied that post

Ýts one Ýslam after all

But i do like that idea of invisible women...imagine how would be men reaction when they dont know if their women are present or not..

Not good for dudus i must say

And on that time not only Muslims women would use it.hmmmm..Scary..huh ?! lol

 Ã believe they dont want others to know what do their hair look like !

As you said where there is a will there is a way !

Yes, that probably is the case...but I think in this case, and some others,  it´s following the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law.  The end result is a photo of a lady with hair.  If one shows another´s hair is it Ok?  In this case, the hair belongs to someone and is being presented on top of another´s face.  It is an interesting question.

For some wearing a hair cover is being merciful to them, for others it a case of being charitable................

 I think it is very logical for muslim women in secular countries like Turkey where it is forbidden to have a headscarf on official documents (which I find ridiculous for a country like Turkey, as long as all facial features are visible I think that should be enough. After all, they wont be with that nice blonde, curly hair when they cross the speed limit! they will have headscarf).

I dont think they are fooling anyone. It is a way for them to always be covered no matter what, but still obey the Turkish law.

This is ofcourse without my opinion about headscarf in itself

I have to agree, what a clever solution.  Have you heard we (in the USA)  can´t smile on official photos now? I wonder just exactly where and in what position one´s lips have to be now?  Will there be a hidden line in camera viewfinders where one´s lips must align to?

I think it´s all due to this new "biometric" (biometrical?) fad and use of computers for recognising faces. Apparently computers go bananas when they see a smiling face Recently I had to have my little one photographed for his passport. Fortunately it´s just a temporary one, valid for one year so it doesn´t have to be biometric. I cannot imagine making a lively 11-month-old sit still till all is positioned. Also, I don´t think there´s a need for hidden lines in cameras, after all, 90% of photos are digitally processed. It was the same with my son´s photo - I was holding him, the photographer took a photo of both of us, then cut me out and set the zoom to demanded properties (and in the machine used for processing there were lines so that proportions of head/neck are kept)

 Same here. And it is very difficult not to smile on a photo just as much as it was to produce a nice and natural smile in the past when it was allowed! Because you are so used to it, now that when you don´t smile, your face looks all forced, or even worse: angry and moody.

It is said to distract your facial features, but I think that is such nonesense. How much can a persons face change if he smiles? After all we are not talking about ing or -ing here!

 I normally look angry and moody when I travel internationally!  (I hate to fly) Perhaps it is best that I don´t smile then?

 My passphoto pictures would be great for you The last one I had taken was very nice (made in Turkey I have got perfect skin colour and my hair looks very healthy and good ), but the 2 before that I look rather angry and strict

 Can you put it here?

 OK D_K, i will try to explain more.

Our society years ago till 1919 women were wearing things called Yaþmak...Ýts not Hijab, and not Burka, its smoething put on the face but actually doesnt hide it..it was worn at Osmanlý time

Came 1919 and it was revolution on 2 scales, politicaly wise, and women wise

Ýt was our whole nation against the British and it was the first time girls at the schools and women join, so women joint side by side with men and been killed also same like men

Since that time women took off yaþmak, and they didnt wear hijab and they wore like Westerns, hair styles, mini skirts..tight clothes..etc

That happened at cities, in country side they were more conservative.

At a time they didnt even know that hijab is an order from ALLAH, actually at cities people didnt know even they should pray, only elders knew it and they didnt teach it to youngers...what they really did was fasting at Ramazan, all kept that very much along of course with Salat...Ramazan was and still a festival on all counts!

Anyway, by time and due to wars, and many people started to read and know more about religion, after we sent our teachers to gulf and they saw women there wearing hijab, they started to search and bit by bit hijab started to get into our society

So actually you would see the daughter was wearing hijab but not the mother !

Or grandmothers putting scarf on their hair but not hijab, meaning not actually covering the hair, but they said our mothers at the good times were wearing like that...that is what haným wear when she goes out but without wearing long dresses or long sleeves

By the time daughters told the mothers that it is an order from ALLAH and not a tradition, taught the mothers, and now you see many women wearing it.

So actually in our society you dont wear hijab to feel safe...we had/have various code of clothes, and you can pick

So the point, wearing hijab or not wearing hijab are treated same here...because almost all families were having a mother or a sister or a relative not wearing it, beside there are many girls who dont wear it still.

You would listen to an expression called ´When im convinced!´ in my society it doesnt mean when im convinced that it is an order from ALLAH then i will wear, but it means, when im convinced that i will be capable of wearing it i will..and yes they know it is an order from ALLAH too...i was one of them  !

So you see, you dont just have 2 cases of societies...but that is another case too.

A society where women have the chance to choose to wear or not to wear and they already took it off in the past and wear it recently

So i would feel more comfortable here actually, i would wear or not wear and at both cases men will look at me same because they know its my choice !

And i dont deny there are societies where its forced on them one way or another.

A popular myth.

Canli, I like you....but I am never sure if you know what you are talking about.

YASMAK is a way Turkish ladies tie their headscarf while working in the fields (btw, they still do). One hanging end of the scarf is run across the face to provide temporary protection against sun, wind and dust. Very mush like the handkerchiefs American cowboys carry aound their necks, while running big herds in the desert. There were transparent  "high fashion" models of yasmak used by city girls, but the idea there was not to hide their faces; it was more to accentuate the beauty of their eyes.

Where I come from, if you approach a lady with yasmak, working in the field and salute her, she will stop work and drop her yasmak before she returns your salute.. It would be considered very impolite, if she mumbles her reply from behind her yasmak.

I dont really know which Moslem country it is where people waited until 1919 to suddenly discover hijab was God´s orders. With Koran freely available for reference and zillions of Imams to explain what it means, it should have taken less than 1400 years to grasp this fine point.

I bet your grandmothers were covering their hair. Even I was covering it while in Saudi. I will let you guess why I was doing it.

Are you sure somebody is not pulling your leg?

 Alpha seems you didnt read my post well

They were wearing it before 1919, i believe all of them were, but after 1919 women took it off specially at cities, actually i dont know if they wearing it on that time because it was an order from ALLAH or because it was a tradition...that i have no information about but i can try to find.

But i believe in the past it started as an order from ALLAH then turned out to be a tradition because even Christian women used to wear it too.

As for Yaþmak i agree about what you said at cities, thats what i saw at the pictures but at the fileds that i dont know anything about, Still, women were removing it to greet you if they knew you, donest matter man or a woman but if a stranger, they dont remove.

And no, my grandmother was not covering her hair actually, she did recently at the late of her life in the 80th i guess and i remember watching her without it and later she put it on after her daughter ´teyze´ did. But yes, my great grandmother ´grandmother mother´ was covering her hair tho but not wearing Yaþmak.

My aunt ´hala´ on the other hand kept the tradition till the day she died and used to put þifon scarf on her hair when she got older while she go out, thinking a lady should do that and refused to go out without it, needless to say a þifon scarf wasnt actually covering her hair of course it was elegance to her i believe and till she died she refused to consider herself wearing hijab..she actually wasnt! 

So you see Alpha, i know what im talking about..it happened that way in my family too .

Of course Korans are/were available and many imams are/ were there but not many people on that time were able to read, so they couldnt read it at koran and start ask about it as it happened later.

And as for imams, well i actually dont know, they should have told people, but it was a political trend to adopt the Western life style, that is what the King at that time wanted beside we were captured by Britain , and covering hair was seen as backward thing and women were actually taking off Yaþmak after 1919 and participate more in that life style surely it started with educated women/girls and then spread at most cities.

Ý remember at high school our teacher used to tell us about that period and she said girls at schools then ´60th´ didnt even know they should pray !

But of course there were also religious families out there or at least they were keeping the traditions as their parents did.

My mother told me yes she used to watch her parents praying but she never thought to do and also her parents never told her to do so !

Ý believe the religion awareness on that time were not having much attention at the society, so being religious meant to be backward, but keeping traditional things were ok.

Ýt was after that when people realized its not what you wear that makes you backward but what you are !

Actually Alpha i have no idea why would you cover your hair at Saudi other than maybe because its very sunny and hot there ?!

 Doesnt knowing about it, doesnt mean its not there !

And thats why many women now wearing it after they got both the education to read and the knowledge .

...i would like to find it in quran...could you please point out the exact location in quran? thank you

 Actually Queent did mentioned it

Here

And Al Ahzab 59

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ ...i found "Hadith Search" there...typed in "hijab" and found 16 matches...interesting reading...

Surat Nur, verse 31 : “…tell the believing women….not to display their charms (in public) beyond what may (decently) be apparent thereof; hence, let them draw their headcoverings over their bosoms.”

Nur Suresi, 31.ayet: “…Mü´min kadýnlara da söyle…süslerini açýða vurmasýnlar, ancak kendiliðinden görüneni hariç. Baþ örtülerini, yakalarýnýn üstünü (kapatacak þekilde) koysunlar.”

I can see where this can be interpreted, "women must wear a burqa" .................

Lisa

You can´t see where this can be interpreted, "women must wear a burqa"..... for sure

The aim of giving the verse 31th from Ennur sure, is to say that woman´s head must be covered also, as some members here (that they are MUSLIM) said that there is no existence of the ORDER of covering the head in Quran.

 Queent, Queent, Queent!  I was just kidding.....I meant the total opposite.....I was being sarcastic.  But anyway, I think if a woman thinks she should wear one, more power to her! And I mean that sincerely. 

Lisa

thanks from my heart.

I wore my scarf when i was 13 14 after two weeks of begging my mum to let me wear it (her excuse was that I was still very young to wear it) and in the end I won and I wore it Elhamdulillah .

Now I want to wear burqa but I´m sure my future´s husband won´t accept, and I won´t fight for it same as I fought for scarf, as I don´t have the same power of my childhood days.

Thanks again

sorry if my words were hard

 No apology necessary,  Queent......no offense was taken.

I´m sorry but I don´t believe in burquas, headscarves...Why should a woman be ashamed to hide her hair or body as someone said it was to prevent the stares of men.  If that´s the case, why don´t you shave your head bald and wear shirts that aren´t revealing.  I really don´t get it why Allah ordered this!  Did he specifically state what men should cover up or not reveal?

 One of my friend she is türbanlý and said its a shame a man to see her hair but its not shame to go to a ginecolog man and check her ..vigina. Imagine a woman wearing scarf staying on ginecologs chair with ..legs opened

 I´d rather not imagine it, thank you very much! 

 Sorry for this

 No problem, I was just teasing....although I really don´t want to think about it

 Well something else that surprized me when it comes to vaginas and islam (sorry ), I was talking with one of my Turkish girlfriends in the Netherlands about brazilian wax. But she said that in Islam it is haram (forbidden by religion) to show your vagina to another woman (without medical reason), so they cannot get it done in a beauty salon. I also remember another situation of a friend who was pregnant, complaining that she didn´t know how to shave/wax herself now that with her belly she could not reach every place, but was feeling very uncomfortable by the thought of going to the hospital to deliver the baby ´in such state´.  When I suggested she got it done by someone else, she also said that it was forbidden.

I dont believe it, it is bad I cant ask anyone, I wont ask my husband lol

Didnt she have a husband? He could do it. For me it would be uncomfortable in a beauty salon

 I wouldn´t trust mine with a razor down there !!

Teas

I don´t cover my head and my body because of being ashamed, far from it

and YES to prevent the stares of men, they have no right to watch me, that´s why I hide and with large clothes.

Why Allah didn´t order men to cover too: is another subject.

 Try thinking of it more as a privilege rather than a burden.  By what right does anyone have to see a woman´s face?  I think of it more as a woman has a right to privacy.

...and a great pity in so many cases!

Privilege is when you choose it deliberately, not when you´re doing it to avoid punishment or when your family forces you to or when you do it or will otherwise be considered immoral.

Privacy is another issue, would you allow people wearing balaclavas in the streets? I doubt it

 What this got to do with that ?!

Ýsnt she going for medical reasons or something else ?

Ýf there are no women or if she is not comfortable to be examined by a woman ´many dont trust women ´ so she could go to a man of course

Ý fail to see what this got to do with that !

 Just to clarify one thing, there is no punishment for not wearing hijab at Quran or Sunna, if you mean societies, i agree, it should be one´s choice

 Actually its also same with men too

Ý mean men should hide from knees till waist, and shouldnt been seen by women nor men too

hmm ...

 But also good thing at others  lol

 lol, it was among my reasons to wear hijab when my mother was fighting me and said ´´Dont put it, men dont like women wearing hijab ´´

So i´ve worn it since then  lol

But Niqap ´Burqa´ isnt an obligation Queent, so good thing in my opinion of course that you didnt.

 I didn´t know that. I wonder how they shower after football then

I think it is useless though. For a religion that forbids homosexuality, there is nothing wrong with being naked for sauna/beauty/medical treatments among your ´sisters´ as a woman, or ´brothers´ as a man.

They do have many showers there ...so would be no problem i guess..im sure they can manage lol

Well, we wouldnt feel comfortabel...i mean..if for medical treatment, then its ok, but others, what would make one be total naked in front of the others, some things are private and it shouldnt be for anyone else to know or to see.

 Ofcourse some things are private, but how private it is, is culturally determined I suppose. I have no problem whatsoever getting a wax done. WAY better than struggling yourself And I don´t see a reason to be embarassed.

There are electric shavers, men know how to use them as they shave their beards I would trust mine.

 Seriously, I suggest you NEVER let them try that based upon what you said. Their electric shavers and ours are sooo different, and the skin type you have to be used to before using one, is soooo different,that your suggestion is asking for trouble

 Just the scratchings after makes me 

but for women there are developed all kinds of razors, too - with and without electricity no need to use husband´s razor at all

 Or they can change the relogion..mine doesnt ask these things..

...change religion? but why? coz women in europe are...bald from...some places...without any religion just feels much better - that´s why no religion involved

 Well nobody asks me this...If you cant do it yourself and dont want to ask other to do it then this the choice left

Please check this site Ladies, and no need for all this struggling about some hair removing

http://www.braun.com/silkepil.html

The site is available in 21 languages including Turkçe.

 Hahaha look what this thread has turned into The reason I said it, is in some cases you CANT do it yourself (for example during pregnancy)

Hahaha...going from shaving your head bald to hmmm.

Here is a suggestion: Revlons bikini hair trimmer

For those who are well overdue try this first before using the above:

Finish off with:

interesting thread this is

 lmao.... where´s the hairy when you really need him..... great for practice lol

Deli_kýzýn

It is not first time a thread goes far from its original point, and it´s YOU whom turned this thread to vaginas and hair removing and so on...

I posted the official site of Braun machines in order to stop this talking about hair removing, it´s not an enlightening talking for sure.

For me each difficult case has a solution, this is the reason of the existence of BRAINS in our heads.

You see Zettea sister, you see !!!!!!!!

 What does she see?? 

 Actually, I didn´t complain it changed from subject so what I deserve this answer for, ´God´ knows. It wasn´t me who opened the subject of VAGÝNAS, you should read better and it´s your opinion religion is more enlightening than vaginas.  And sorry, I don´t think many people understood your intention of posting that Braun-website, I thought you were actually joining the talk.

USE them.

Half Brazilian, or full Brazilian ?

why do half measures

Ewwww...

What I should read better is DELÝ_KIZIN, and it would be enough that I wouldn´t even say a word.

No need that you know LÝR, she knows better as we are sisters

sorry as you are confused...

 Sisters in religion?

what do you  think??????

 Whatever you say

 Im curious how you call the others..from other religion ( not brothers or sisters)

do I have to have special expressions for the others too...

You tell me ...

Peace gals !

Nothing happened to deserve all this.

Ýts TLC habit to change subjects so what ?

Nothing new, none complains !

And if any complains, the answer would be ...Ýts TLC habit, so what ?!

Ýf want wish to join, cool, if not, still cool.

So Peace !

 Turkish yes had

Ben koyu arabým türk deðilim.

I know sister I know

but I should say my words, I have words too

 What do they call them ?

 giyavur or something..

 You dont have anything?

a turkish one said they call them : yabancý, ecnebi, gâvur
sorry if one of this words is an offensive one

 SWo how do you call then?

 What would giyavur mean ?!

You mean a name in daily speaking as a nic to call none muslims ?!

No we dont have.

But sure if we are talking about religious division, we call everyone by what he is..like Muslims, Christians, hindu...etc

eeeeeehhh

what a large difference between calling someone "my brother, my sister" and calling him/her gâvur........

you should check the dictionnary before ....

 Ã understood both, and they are not offensive, it means stranger

Ý believe gâvur is Kafir..that would mean the one who doesnt believe in any god, and its not an insult its an adjective.

Kafir is the one who deny the existence of God .

yabancý means foreigner

ecnebi means foreigner (the word came from Arabic language)

gâvur means

1. vulg. giaour, non-Muslim; Christian.
2. vulg. infidel, unbeliever.
3. colloq. merciless, cruel, heartless; obstinate.

  But Queent, i believe gâvur is Kafir which also arabic, and its an adjective means the one who deny the existence of God.

And it can be used as insult word too, but people use it ´when they shouldnt´ to anyone muslim, christian..any.

Thats what i know, i dont know if its same with Turks or not.

 Yes ReyhanL, I don´t see the connection either? The fact that I don´t call you sister, doesn´t mean I will call you gâvur.

 So - what are you calling me then QueenT???  or Canli???

 Actually I was saying I agree with Queent and wondered why ReyhanL started talking about infidels, just because Queent called someone her sister.

 I think all cames from the fact that sectarians are calling eachother ´brothers and sisters´ and i felt like..i cant exactly explain...something like world will be divided in to: brothers (sisters) and the rest

 I didn´t mean that you were calling me QueenT or Canli - I meant what would QueenT and Canli call me!  - I´m not a ´sister´ so am I an ´infidel´???

 Aren´t you

 Oh ok - yes - as, according to the dictionary, an infidel can be a muslim to a christian, a christian to a muslim or a total non-believer - then yes I must be one of those!

 Clever

I am not going into a discussion of what "infidel" means or whether or not it is equivalent in meaning to the word " gavur".

Gavur, to a Moslem, means someone who denies existance of God; as such,  Christians, Jews etc. who recognize the same god, but follow His different prophets can not be called gavur.

 I hoped here on turkishclass we are Turkish natives and Turkish learners...and all friends

These gavurs or infidles are trying to be funny.

 Is this an insult? Or im too sensitive...

 Well said Alpha,

Christians and Jewish are not gavur, they are just as they are , Christians/Jewish

Gavur who denies existence of God

 Calling you LÝR ?!

 With what right you say we deny the existence of God ?????

 Well, at US you would find black people calling same, brothers and sisters, and they are not Muslims, not a condition i mean, but they are just black

What im saying, its not something only belong to Muslims, but many others.

Ýn our understanding, as human we are brothers and sisters in humanity and also as Muslims we are brothers and sisters in religion.

We dont actually call each others brother, and sister, we sometimes do we sometimes dont, and also some of us do and some of us dont...its not a rule you know.

 Sorry, i dont get it

What do you mean ?!

Who deny the existence of God we call him/her gavur.

Ýf you dont deny the existence of god then we dont call you gavur...its what you chose, say not i !

Guys, i see no reason for all of that or am i missing something ?!

Let´s not give things more than they deserve .

For any Moslem, calling someone "gavur" is a very risky act, even when that someone appears to be in open defiance of god.

"Takva" is a term to define a person´s "closeness" to God.  Kuran openly states that it is not possible nor allowed for ordinary mortals to judge anyone else´s takva and comment on it,  since the rights for such an evaluation is exclusively reserved for God only. Calling someone "Gavur"  may be construed as an attempt to grade that person´s takva, hence as an interference with God´s bussiness: Such interference, according to Islam, is a major sin.

You better understand messages here thoroughly, before you comment on them.

Not all messages here are absolutely friendly...But this one that you seem to be objecting is one of the friendliest, ever.

Read my  message again, and let me know what seemed unfriendly to you.

You are absolutly correct.  What mortal knows what is the heart of another?......