Judiciary and state behind alienation of non-Muslims

Members of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation introduced a report on Saturday about the obstacles facing ethnic minorities in Turkey, stating that non-Muslim Turks still face anti-democratic practices.

Turkey´s non-Muslim communities have been alienated, and it was done by the state and judiciary, ....

"In the 1930s, it became evident that pushing or directly forcing the few non-Muslims left in Turkey to abandon the country was an explicit state policy," said Kezban Hatemi, the co-author of the report, titled "The Story of an Alien(ation): Real Estate Ownership Problems of Non-Muslim Foundations and Communities in Turkey," which was released on Saturday as part of the democratization program of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation (TESEV). ....

One example she gave was the Civil Code of 1926 that pruned minority rights granted in the Treaty of Lausanne, which adopted the principle that the status granted to Muslim citizens in terms of religious rights and liberties should also be granted to non-Muslim citizens.

Only a short while after the Treaty of Lausanne, it became obvious that the state did not intend to implement the rights it was supposed to give, she said,...

..The Tuzla Armenian Children’s Camp is one of the most striking and heartbreaking examples of the seizure of properties from the Armenian non-Muslim foundations,she added, pointing out that Hrant Dink, a Turkish-Armenian journalist murdered in 2007, was among the first group of children who built the camp, which he later managed with his wife for many years.

Dilek Kurban, co-author of the report, said that when Turkey became a candidate for European Union membership, it became evident that it was not possible to sustain this state policy toward non-Muslim communities. ....

The report also pointed out that the Justice and Development Party (AK Party), which came to power in 2002, made several amendments to the Law on Foundations in order to solve the problem. In February 2008, after strong opposition from nationalist elements within Parliament, ....

Part of the investigation has suggested that there may be links between Ergenekon and the self-declared Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate run by the Erenerol family. On behalf of the Fener Greek Orthodox Patriarchate, based in what is now Istanbul since A.D. 356, Hatemi, an attorney, has long been asking the courts to return four churches confiscated by the fake patriarchate in the mid-1920s.

The Fener Greek Orthodox Patriarchate once had 90 churches in Istanbul and on the islands of Gökçeada (Imbros) and Bozcaada (Tenedos), the deeds of which belong to the foundation of each church.

...

While non-Muslim foundations win in the European court, Turkey is losing. And the money is paid out of the taxpayers’ pockets. All Turkish citizens should be concerned about this, he said.

Full article:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=169711

a secular state of turkey!

First of all, I am amazed that Zaman would post an article like that! Anybody has an explanation for that?

Secondly, although I completely sympathize with Turkish people´s frustration with the corrupt membership process of the EU, this is just one of many examples that looking at the direction of Europe is so good for Turkey..

here is the explanation; zaman is owned by the kurdish islamic terrorist leader fetullah gulen who is supported by america.

did you notice something weird about the article? It doesn`t even mention about Alevis who constitute the biggest and most oppressed religious minority in Turkey. There are more than 10 millions of Alevis in Turkey, and they don`t even have right to construct buildings for worship.

Alevis got genocided, they got massacred so many times, but zaman will never talk about them just because they are turks, they don`t have terrorist organizations, and they don`t want to split Turkey.

Very good point, and an answer to cat...

Just a correction though; there are Kurdish Alevis, as well as Turkish ones... And they get along really well...

But, such logical questions, like the ones you posed, are beyond the scope of Zaman... 

It was about NON-MUSLIMS and how our state did not comply with the international agreements!!

Not about generically who is oppressed or alienated.. 

Dohhh!!

 it seems like the logics are beyond of our young and knowledgable members

What knowledge ya Femme? 

These are the by-products of  "propaganda for Turks done by Turks".

They, unfortunately, belong to our lost generation!  

 i dont know anything about your lost generation

but there are lots of lost females here claiming that young turks are wonderful and their knowledge and style are something divine

Well, I would like to think, I do know something about the my country´s lost generation..

according to the state alevism doesn`t even exist. so I don`t think they would say alevis are muslims as "they don`t exist".

also, it`s not written in the constitution that alevis are muslims, so it`s only alevis` business how to define themselves.

Ha ha

Why do I need to feel alienated? 

Because of your  ´alevis are non muslim Turks´ joke? 

ps..Please dont say the same thing in public as they may not be as friendly as us about the level of your knowledge and state of your perspective ..

no it`s because the article is excatly about the alienation of non muslims contrary to what you just said.

and if Alevis are muslims, kurds are Turks. when will your beloved fascist akp recognize the rights of Alevis?

They will recognize the rights of Alevis when this country finally get rid of "fear" that your beloved Ataturk and his followers and generals created. Not only Alevis rights, also Kurdish rights, socialists rights, headscarved womens rights, islamists rights, leftists rights,women rights,  in summary,  "HUMAN RIGHTS"  will be recognized in that beautiful day.

Well, do you know that now ´burning intellectuals in Sivas´ is part of Ergenekon case in which the racist  nationalist criminals are being tried?

The criminals who killed many of  Turks and Kurds, the very much people Chiko was talking about, whom you like defending here so often, whom they are trying to  defend themselves by saying ´we did for our country´ inthe court..

So I am not going to be surprised if we learnt that ´sivas massacare was  a work of racist / nationalist thugs´.

But it will be a huge shock for you  

You made me laugh out loud   By the way i realised that you cant say "Ottoman" or "Turkish"  or "Sunni"genocided Alevis  eh?   there is always someone else to blame.

I clearly said that it was the Ottoman empire who gave the order of Alevi genocide, and it was the Kurds who carried it out. just to enlighten you.

Well..I am sure they blamed someone else  400 years ago too...

Foreign involvement; Iranians; "if we did not do it they would do it to us"; "it was necessary" etc

just like you blame the so called ergenekon now for the Sivas massacre you carried out?

Thank you so much for enlightening me  can you imagine what would happen to kurdish if they didnt obey the order of  "TURKISH" Sultan

I am afraid it is not me..It is the prosecuter who exposed the killers with their badges of  ´Ataturkcu Dusunce Dernegi´..  

So will you personally  feel embarresed if they find them guilty by thinking that ´omg I was supporting the killers´?

since when is sevket kazanci a member of ADD? why don`t they arrest him for being an ergenekon member?

I don`t need to think about those "if" cases, as I`m not a dumb to believe these crappy lies.

Wow!!!!

Did someone give Tami clearence to post criticisms of Turkey?!

you know nothing about me yet, AE!

he he

It does not matter if you believe or not right now..

But probably the prosecution is telling the truth and there is a great chance that they will be convicted..

If and when it is the case will you be personally feel ashamed because you supported nationalist killers with all your being and wholeheartedly? 

I mean will you feel that shame that because of the support from you and similar people,  they were able to kill all those Turks and kurds? or you will just ignore..

Ha ha 

As if the papers are following our discussions here  

Monority report:

It was two decades ago that I unwittingly took a dentist´s drill to the jangling sensitivities that attend the very use of the word "minority" in Turkey.

An English-language newspaper of which I was an editor had just published an interview ...."When you think of minorities in Turkey, the first thing that comes to mind are Greeks, Kurds, Armenians or Jews but in fact there are minorities among Turks themselves." That evening the phone rang and I found myself talking to a very senior general who (I didn´t realize at the time) was a senior aid to then-President Kenan Evren. He had called to complain.

"Kurds are not a minority," he told me.

He explained that the term "minority" referred to the very specific status defined in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, ..... Ergo, he repeated, "Kurds are not a minority." I replied in my burgeoning Turkish that the article had used the word "minority" in a more colloquial sense to describe people who, for ethnic or linguistic reasons, felt themselves to be different or excluded from the mainstream. He did not concede the point. Kurds, he assured me, were treated just like anyone else in society and not like blacks in America.

I protested that the article hadn´t set out to equate minority with a victim of discrimination. After all, I said, Greeks and Armenians can succeed in Turkish society just like anyone else. "No, they can´t," he replied. "Besides, Kurds aren´t a minority," he said.

"Are you trying to tell me they´re a majority?" I asked in a misguided attempt to lighten the mood. And that is where our conversation came to an abrupt end, although its reverberations continued for some time.

... with the rest of Europe on the subject of what a minority is, what rights they should enjoy and how to address institutionalized discrimination. The conclusion she reaches is an unflattering one: "Although the education system could be used as an effective tool to promote tolerance, multiculturalism and peace, it is deepening fears and hatred in its current state."

The rest :

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=169793

Tamikidakika, please (once more) stop the disgusting insults you seem to not be able to resist when you are having a conversation. I´m afraid that you´re doing a bit too much of it despite being reminded. The next step is sending you an official warning -- three of which will get your account deleted.

can you point out those "disgusting insults", cw? because just like cynic, I have no idea what you`re talking about.

I`m also wondering why you constantly delete my posts although they contain nothing violating the rules.

here is one of my very short posts that you deleted

can you tell us, what is wrong with this post? is this also one of my "disgusting insults"?

I must admit, you`re just being low catwoman, and I don`t care if you delete my account or not. if there is smn here who behaves inappropriately it`s you. now go ahead and delete this too.

Dude, she is perhaps going to delete us both out of frustration just to erase all evidence to her nonsense...

I guess it is March, and the stray cats have been whining on roof tops, scratching ears... 

Tami, you know very well what your posts were deleted for. If you stuck to expressing your opinion, everything would be fine, but you added to every one of your post, something to insult the person you were replying to. For example:

--- "I suspect you have mental issues"

--- "no one can be more clown than a borat"

--- "you`re just being disgusting."

--- "you`re just proving how disgusting, liar and low you`re."

etc...

If you or your friend cynic doesn´t see anything wrong with these posts then I guess you are proving that the posts were deleted correctly.

everything you quoted was written as a response to an equally or more disturbing post about me. it was femme who first called me a clown and that post was merely for fun, why don`t you go ask her if she felt insulted before accusing me of insulting her? did you delete her post too in which she called me a clown.   I`m sure you didn`t.

and I`m repeating my question; why did you delete this post?

and thats not the only one, you`ve been deleting some people`s posts for no reason at all.

Making assumptions are you kitty?

I am not friends with the Tami dude... I don´t know him at all, in fact...

I am just highlighting your inconsistency when it comes to recognizing such fine examples you kindly provided.

When your cyber pets make similar comments, it happens to be within the board rules.

When your personal enemies make them, it is a no no... 

The posts were not deleted correctly, on the contrary to your miserable attempt to stuff words in our mouths. You deleted them out of your own whim... You know it. I know it. So does anyone else who cares to read the thread... Give it a break.

there you go, that´s why your posts were deleted, because that´s what you wrote. and you haven´t even looked if femme´s post was deleted, clearly by assumptions you jumped into criticizing me...

anyway... the post you are asking about was more in the grey area, if it was an isolated post I wouldn´t have deleted it, but because it was in the string of the whole bunch of your insulting posts, that´s why I decided to delete it.

dear cynicmystic and dear tamikidakika, please ignore that incurable person. she must clean her house, before being an admin in this crappy website. don´t tire yourself so much. this is my recommendation to you all. have fun.

 Not taking any sides here, but why do people come to this site if they think it is so "crappy" - if you want an unmoderated forum where you can all insult eachother to your hearts content, I am sure there are plenty out there

 I agree with you to a point, but why do you assume that others don´t get warnings?  I have had warnings via PMs from mods on many occasions, and a few posts deleted...maybe I just don´t make such a big fuss about them as you

 i dont know about warnings. i often get them if i write something politically incorrect. and when i insult someone in reply to his insult i get the warnings again. and my posts get deleted on a daily basis.

nobody had so much insult as it has cynic´s posts in TC´s history. look at his posts, its an insult after an insult. and most of his posts dont get deleted even if it contains solely thick personal insults.

You have hit the nail on the head there femme but it doesn´t seem to sink in.  And of course other users get warned - they just don´t make such a big deal of it as Aenigma said.  How many times have I warned you?  Lost count I bet

 wait until the pain killers start working

I have been warned to stay away from femme......

 and i was told to tease and insult fet ass amrikans as much as i want. heheheh

 I have been warned to stay away from you

 I have been warned to follow you......

was it just the voices in my head?

 ...and I am warning YOU ALL to stay away from me..........

 Dont make me break my promise...

 What´s the punishment if we don´t?

  oh, mommy, aenigma doesnt get those warnings as often as some of us. and her posts got deleted when cat was in a wrong mood

plus, she is quite careful on what she posts about. she avoids crying babies.

lately im not getting any warnings. maybe i started avoiding some members as well? and its a good idea, being honest.

I want a warning too!!!!!!!!!! <stamping feet on the ground!!>

 We are all warning you to take your clogs off...your stomping is getting annoying!

 It that something I should be ashamed of?

Does it have more "street cred" to get warnings?

 It´s an ASBO thing!  - something to show off to your mates about

 ASBO? Code language?

 This does seem quite tame

And...actually sentence number 2 is perfectly true...

 means you´re really naughty!!

 Anti Social Behaviour Order - supposed to help law and order but most people in the UK have failed to see that they work..

Nooooo...please don´t...

We don´t want another major earthquake. 

Clap your hands instead for the sake of humanity...

Wow. ..With your ´heavy´ presence, I am really scared now.. 

 yes, shame on you.

Im a strong opposer of islam in our society, because of its inherient inability (more so that christianity) to progress and be rational. I believe alot of our inner struggles, both in society and politics, is because of Islam. Every backward approach within our society, every backward approach in our our policies, and within our politics, is inherited from Islam. Im a rational person, and my political ideaologies are based on rational policies. I believe in progress, in modernization, in equality, and a strong backer of secularism; all which is vital for Turkey´s growth and progression to a modern state where everbody within the Turks boarders are free to practise there beliefs and live however they wish, without opression or discrimination (though i am opposed to religion, i believe strongly that all should have the right to practice it moderately within every country). We are nearly at that stage, and it is my vision, as it was the vision of our founding father before, that secular Turkey will become just that: a state that does not discriminate, or favour, certain religious sects, but rather stands to represent them all and protect there rights to be practiced. And it is exactly this vision of Turkey that needs to evolve in order to be fit enough to join the EU clan. It is also because of  Islam (moderately present within our society), Islams inherit inability to bring equality to all parts of our society, upon every sex and religious follower, and, being largely present within our society, its inherit inabilities have also influenced the wind of politics, which is unfortunate. Not only does it indicate the Turkish governments need to reinforce secularism further, but it is also evident that islam within our community needs to be further relaxed, and the ban on headscarfs within government institutions (actually legal under UN frameworks) is a positive step to normalizing our society, and further integrating it with the west, where it has and always will belong.