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Obama calls for new beginning between US and Muslims
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10.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 05:29 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

 In case you missed it, we were attacked durng the Bush administration, who after getting numerous warnings regarding Al Qaida that were ignored...and in particular White House Presidential Daily Briefing in early August 2001 saying Ben Laidin Determined to strike in the US, continued clearing brush on his ranch....I suggest you take a look at Richard Clark´s book, Against All Enemies...then there is John O´Neill....aka The Man Who Knew...who was vilified and ignored...Then there was Bush´s "Bring it on" comment....at that time there were only 65 US  comba deaths....now there are 5,000 ......... You really think the Bush administration made/keep the citizens of the US safe....?

 

 Alamada, I suggest you reread my post then..sound familiar? I do indicate 9/11 and you failed to mention it was the Clinton Administration who received warnings well before Bush took office.  Do you recall the 1993 bombing of the WTC?  To remind you that was under the Clinton Administration.  You probably also believe in the conspiracy the administration plotted these acts of terror.

 

I would rather fight the war on terror overseas than on our own soil.  I have more fear that Obama and his show boat feel good invitations don´t invite the extremist to take the opportunity to visit our backyards. Even the most far out liberals I know can´t deny that the Bush administration did keep this country safe.. Obviously your terminology of what safe means must be quite different than the average joe I know.  But then again that doesn´t surprise me.

 

 

11.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 10:00 am

 

Quoting teaschip

Hmm, I listened to this speech.  Sounded like the Jimmy Carter administration...words and choices.  That´s great..but I didn´t hear a solution...SadWhat did surprise me was his comment to the Muslim world about womens education..but then again he referred many times back to those countries allowing their government to run things as they felt suited for them.  It was contradicting to me that if you continued to allow these governments to run things that were suited to them...then your limiting choices for people especially womens education.  It´s interesting how he concentrated on the verbiage "choices", but as Americans we are seeing our choices little by little  go right out the door.

 

Also, when he speaks of the Muslim world...what exactely does this mean?  You don´t hear phrases like the Christian World, the Jewish World.   

 

And lastly, why of all places did he pick Egypt to send this message?Confused

 

 There are reasons that Obama is the president Teas not you and what he did today is one of them lol

 

Actually, i dont know if you really dont know the answer to your questions or you just raising points for debates !

Ý mean, do you believe that is it a nature thing that countries interferes in each other internal affairs ?

For example if US doesnt like the educational system of UK for example, it should collect its troops and does something about it ?!

Or UK is an independent country has every right to does what it suits it regardless if US liked it or not ?!

Beside, US was/still trying to force its well over Afghanistan, so...women are wll educated now there ?!

 

And yes he speaks about the Muslim world and you dont hear anything about Christian World, and Jewish World because to some/many Christian world used to be/is the only world they acknowledge and think all people should fit into that!

 

Lastly,you´ve wondered why Egypt, although small google would have told you about it

Then to my fully surprise you have added why not Lebanon !

 

 Lebanon not an Ýslamic country, so do you think its suitable to go to none Ýslamic country to address the Ýslamic world ?!

Ý would have understood if you said for example why not Ýndonesia ...but Lebanon?!  ´with all my respect to Lebanon of course´

 

Why he picked  Egypt ...

For many reasons actually

Mixture of many civilizations...´Coptic,Ýslamic,Arabic,and  Modern civilization´

 Al Azhar which is one of the oldest Uni of the whole world, actually its second Uni founded in 975

Cairo Uni which isthe first Uni at the Middle East.

 

Beside what actually matter is he wanted to effect the people of the Ãslamic and Arab world so what is better to do than to go to the biggest Arab country with the biggest Muslim population at the region  which many of the muslims students of the Ýslamic world go to her to learn at its Uni ´Al Azhar´

Thats a first, second, the government is very much moderate actually -as they say is /was America´s ally- so he wont have a problem on that ground and all he will need to do is to win the people , and through that also he will win the people of the Ýslamic world

Egypt has a soft spot in most of Muslims people hearts, so talking to them from Egypt wont raise voices like why not from here or there.

 

But actually there i must agree with you about something....the speech was very nice and very sweet too

Sugar coated words.

Ý saw the speech, and i follow up the analysis about it at Tv´s programs, trying to figure out...and...so ...!

Ýf you come to the real facts, he didnt offer anything but words!

What he said there is not new, he didnt come up with planes or decision or something, as a matter of fact he didnt offered us anything, STÝLL he left Cairo a Winner !

 

This man knew exactly how to talk to The Muslims world, to the people themselves

He knew how to enter their minds, and even hearts too and they allow him ...even those who are sceptical, they cant do anything about it.

He know what buttons to press, he know how to make himself welcome in a world saw USA as an enemy from its own doing..Ýraq, Afghanistan, second Crausad..etc and many more the US goverment has said and did

Talking about human rights and having Guantánamo and Abu Gharib on hand !

So trust from the Ýslamic world...that you dont have  !

 

He started by saying Selamu Aleykum...Peace be upon you ..its the Arabic muslim´s greeting.

He quoted from Kur´an Verses that no one can argue about and very much serve his goals

He offered his hand and he said we want to start over and have a peaceful world together at same time he reserved some issues that he said we all agree about Afghanistan for example ´ even we may/are not ! ´ 

He said i will start and set an example .

He said, and he said...etc

 

First, we are very hospital, its both tradition and base in our lives so we cant reject an offered hand even if we dont agree with some or many ...we must accept and try to work things out

And if you saw the reaction of the simple people, you would understand

He knew that, and played on it too.

So some how  in few words, he throw the ball to us saying...i offer my hand and i want peace ....but yet clever enough he at same time offered nothing still in return but words and still people welcomed his offer... just because of his tone which is the next issue here.

 

Second, he talked with respect, he wasnt arrogant putting people who arent like him down as your late president and govenment used to do and got disrespect only in return and potential enemies

Obama´s attitudes forced peopele to be as good as he was if not better too, from the point of view that he wont be better than us

 

Third, USA who used to be the first enemy in some people´s opinion, the one they breach they must fight is no longer / or will be longer no.1 enemy.

USA used to be the enemy for the things it said and did, they say  ´´look what Bush said ?! ´ He want to attack us and take our lands, he want to convert us ..he and he..etc ´´

Now those same people wont be able to say same about your system or your president, wont be able to leacture same things to the youngster without hearing this phrase ´ But Obama came to us and offered a new start based on respect, he said USA not in war with Ýslam and will never be, he said one should trat people like they wanted them to treat him, he said...etc´ and you will have  debate  in that level between those people about being number one enemy instead of having it as a fact .

Now they just wait and see, putting what he said into a test...he said he will be truthful, so will he ?!

 

Of course what he did, may not be appealing to some from both camps who get better benefits from the hatred between the US and the Ýslamic world

So changes - Ýf there will be - not going to be easy !

 

Ý heard  Saudi saying when he has been asked what does he think about Obama´s speech , ´ he came and saying Salamu Aleykum, our religion ordering us if we have been greeted we reply with a better one, we are muslim and he doesnt know our religion better than us, he offered us his hand, we welcome it ´

 

So for those who understand the Muslism world will understand that Mr Obama has played it right

Serves the US interests very well...same goals but with different method with full understanding way to the people who he deals with !

 

The question is... will it also serve the Muslim world ?!

Hopfully !

but that we will have to wait and see!

 

One of our independent politicians ´Esmat El Sadat´  put it in a few words

´´Mr. Obama came, played, shot, and scored..thats it ! ´´

 

 



Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI
Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI
Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI
Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI

12.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 08:40 pm

Quote:

There are reasons that Obama is the president Teas not you and what he did today is one of them lol

 

Actually, i dont know if you really dont know the answer to your questions or you just raising points for debates !

Ý mean, do you believe that is it a nature thing that countries interferes in each other internal affairs ?

For example if US doesnt like the educational system of UK for example, it should collect its troops and does something about it ?!

Or UK is an independent country has every right to does what it suits it regardless if US liked it or not ?!

Beside, US was/still trying to force its well over Afghanistan, so...women are wll educated now there ?!

 

And yes he speaks about the Muslim world and you dont hear anything about Christian World, and Jewish World because to some/many Christian world used to be/is the only world they acknowledge and think all people should fit into that!

 

Lastly,you´ve wondered why Egypt, although small google would have told you about it

Then to my fully surprise you have added why not Lebanon !

 

 Lebanon not an Ýslamic country, so do you think its suitable to go to none Ýslamic country to address the Ýslamic world ?!

Ý would have understood if you said for example why not Ýndonesia ...but Lebanon?!  ´with all my respect to Lebanon of course´

 

Why he picked  Egypt ...

For many reasons actually

Mixture of many civilizations...´Coptic,Ýslamic,Arabic,and  Modern civilization´

 Al Azhar which is one of the oldest Uni of the whole world, actually its second Uni founded in 975

Cairo Uni which isthe first Uni at the Middle East.

 

Beside what actually matter is he wanted to effect the people of the Ýslamic and Arab world so what is better to do than to go to the biggest Arab country with the biggest Muslim population at the region  which many of the muslims students of the Ýslamic world go to her to learn at its Uni ´Al Azhar´

Thats a first, second, the government is very much moderate actually -as they say is /was America´s ally- so he wont have a problem on that ground and all he will need to do is to win the people , and through that also he will win the people of the Ýslamic world

Egypt has a soft spot in most of Muslims people hearts, so talking to them from Egypt wont raise voices like why not from here or there.

 

But actually there i must agree with you about something....the speech was very nice and very sweet too

Sugar coated words.

Ý saw the speech, and i follow up the analysis about it at Tv´s programs, trying to figure out...and...so ...!

Ýf you come to the real facts, he didnt offer anything but words!

What he said there is not new, he didnt come up with planes or decision or something, as a matter of fact he didnt offered us anything, STÝLL he left Cairo a Winner !

 

This man knew exactly how to talk to The Muslims world, to the people themselves

He knew how to enter their minds, and even hearts too and they allow him ...even those who are sceptical, they cant do anything about it.

He know what buttons to press, he know how to make himself welcome in a world saw USA as an enemy from its own doing..Ýraq, Afghanistan, second Crausad..etc and many more the US goverment has said and did

Talking about human rights and having Guantánamo and Abu Gharib on hand !

So trust from the Ýslamic world...that you dont have  !

 

He started by saying Selamu Aleykum...Peace be upon you ..its the Arabic muslim´s greeting.

He quoted from Kur´an Verses that no one can argue about and very much serve his goals

He offered his hand and he said we want to start over and have a peaceful world together at same time he reserved some issues that he said we all agree about Afghanistan for example ´ even we may/are not ! ´ 

He said i will start and set an example .

He said, and he said...etc

 

First, we are very hospital, its both tradition and base in our lives so we cant reject an offered hand even if we dont agree with some or many ...we must accept and try to work things out

And if you saw the reaction of the simple people, you would understand

He knew that, and played on it too.

So some how  in few words, he throw the ball to us saying...i offer my hand and i want peace ....but yet clever enough he at same time offered nothing still in return but words and still people welcomed his offer... just because of his tone which is the next issue here.

 

Second, he talked with respect, he wasnt arrogant putting people who arent like him down as your late president and govenment used to do and got disrespect only in return and potential enemies

Obama´s attitudes forced peopele to be as good as he was if not better too, from the point of view that he wont be better than us

 

Third, USA who used to be the first enemy in some people´s opinion, the one they breach they must fight is no longer / or will be longer no.1 enemy.

USA used to be the enemy for the things it said and did, they say  ´´look what Bush said ?! ´ He want to attack us and take our lands, he want to convert us ..he and he..etc ´´

Now those same people wont be able to say same about your system or your president, wont be able to leacture same things to the youngster without hearing this phrase ´ But Obama came to us and offered a new start based on respect, he said USA not in war with Ýslam and will never be, he said one should trat people like they wanted them to treat him, he said...etc´ and you will have  debate  in that level between those people about being number one enemy instead of having it as a fact .

Now they just wait and see, putting what he said into a test...he said he will be truthful, so will he ?!

 

Of course what he did, may not be appealing to some from both camps who get better benefits from the hatred between the US and the Ýslamic world

So changes - Ýf there will be - not going to be easy !

 

Ý heard  Saudi saying when he has been asked what does he think about Obama´s speech , ´ he came and saying Salamu Aleykum, our religion ordering us if we have been greeted we reply with a better one, we are muslim and he doesnt know our religion better than us, he offered us his hand, we welcome it ´

 

So for those who understand the Muslism world will understand that Mr Obama has played it right

Serves the US interests very well...same goals but with different method with full understanding way to the people who he deals with !

 

The question is... will it also serve the Muslim world ?!

Hopfully !

but that we will have to wait and see!

 

One of our independent politicians ´Esmat El Sadat´  put it in a few words

´´Mr. Obama came, played, shot, and scored..thats it ! ´´

 

 

 

Oh I hated to copy and paste this huge post...Thank you for pointing out that Obama is president and not me.  I wouldn´t want this billion dollar bail out to be on my shoulder.  Where did I say anywhere that a country has the right to interviene...You are putting words in my mouth.  I simply stated I felt he was contradicting himself.  Yes, I wish we would leave countries to rule on their own and in the same respect quit giving our personal debt to these countries, including Egypt. 

 

I think Obama could have found a better place than Egypt, who is a country governered by an 80...year old authoritarian regime. Scared Actually, a better choise would have been Istanbul as the place to address the Muslim world.  I think at least in Istanbul you have the desire to bridge the political, economic and perception gaps between Muslims and the West.

 

Also, an observation I would like to mention..When Obama discussed needing to resolve the palestinian issue and they needed a state..the audience went crazy with cheers and applauses.  As soon as he mentioned how hateful it was to deny the holocaust and Israel deserved peace, the audience was totally silent.  Hmm, interesting did he really get through I have to ask?

 

His attempt was positive, but the question is will it be effective...

13.       vineyards
1954 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:35 pm

Teaschip, I will not bother to  copy and paste anything but I read your previous message in which you accused Obama and Carter of talking much but failing to provide real options for the solving of problems affecting women.

 

There are some facts you are ignoring, the Bush administration did not do anything to ease these problems either. The difference here being he simply did not care at all. He was the leader of a bombastic America that prefered the patriotic bullshit over reason. As a matter of fact, the Bush family are the close friends of Saudi Arabian Royal family. This partnership secures the Saudi style brutalitly and a complete lack of democracy to prosper and to be exported in the region.

 

I believe, Bush is the leader of simple people who has simply no idea about the real nature of global problems and about the ways to solve them.

 

As for Obama, he is obviously a well meant chap but I am afraid he will realize soon that the reins of the country have not been trusted to him exclusively.



Edited (6/5/2009) by vineyards

14.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:39 pm

 

Quoting teaschip

Oh I hated to copy and paste this huge post...Thank you for pointing out that Obama is president and not me.  I wouldn´t want this billion dollar bail out to be on my shoulder.  Where did I say anywhere that a country has the right to interviene...You are putting words in my mouth.  I simply stated I felt he was contradicting himself.  Yes, I wish we would leave countries to rule on their own and in the same respect quit giving our personal debt to these countries, including Egypt. 

 

I think Obama could have found a better place than Egypt, who is a country governered by an 80...year old authoritarian regime. Scared Actually, a better choise would have been Istanbul as the place to address the Muslim world.  I think at least in Istanbul you have the desire to bridge the political, economic and perception gaps between Muslims and the West.

 

Also, an observation I would like to mention..When Obama discussed needing to resolve the palestinian issue and they needed a state..the audience went crazy with cheers and applauses.  As soon as he mentioned how hateful it was to deny the holocaust and Israel deserved peace, the audience was totally silent.  Hmm, interesting did he really get through I have to ask?

 

His attempt was positive, but the question is will it be effective...

 

 He was at Ankara short while ago , and gave a speech there, so i believe picking  another country would serve his goals , aslo Türkiye is not an Arab country and is already in the Nato, so giving a speech from there to reach out to the Ýslamic world wont be as effective as you may think, although i must add Erdoðan has become hero at the Arab world .

Holocaust wasnt our crime, so why would we pay for it ?!

That is the thing that you´ve skipped

Ýt was a crime of the Western world so why would Ýslamic world ´Palestine´ pay for it ?

That is the reason, its actually simple one

Ýf you really want to talk about histroy and crimes of history so we were the ones who were /are paying for others mistakes.

So actually we werent the ones who wouldnt have needed a lecture about how horrible it was...yes it was horrible but to pay for that crime you make someone else paying for it ?!

When he discussed needing to resolve the palestinian issue and they needed a state he was simply saying we will give back pat of their lands to them because that is what we can do..as he said Ýsrael wont just go away !

So you see, he shouldnt actually addressing us about the holocaust...he could have done this at Germany or something...but the Ýslamic world?!

What for ?!

We are the one paying for their mistake !

Ýt was an attempt from him to reach out to the Ãsraeli community too as in saying dont worry you are safe with me, i havent forgotten about you...ok fine but not on our expenses !

As you see, we are hospital yes...but not naive !

 

Anyway i agree with you His attempt was positive, but the question is will he change anything or offer anything on the ground other than words ?!

We will wait and see...and soon we will too, the Lebanon election is due...we will see what the US reaction to the new government will be .

Good test it will be, to see what he said were just words, sweet ones or he really meant it ?!



Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI

15.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:49 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

 

 

Vineyards, do you think USA really wants  democracy  in the region ?!

Ý doubt it.

Ýt wnt serve its interests, many countries wont be as good allies as the ones in hand now.

So to me this talk about democracy is just a good dressing coated the cake...it looks nice and covering the cake !

16.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:50 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

Teaschip, I will not bother to  copy and paste anything but I read your previous message in which you accused Obama and Carter of talking much but failing to provide real options for the solving of problems affecting women.

 

There are some facts you are ignoring, the Bush administration did not do anything to ease these problems either. The difference here being he simply did not care at all. He was the leader of a bombastic America that prefered the patriotic bullshit over reason. As a matter of fact, the Bush family are the close friends of Saudi Arabian Royal family. This partnership secures the Saudi style brutalitly and a complete lack of democracy to prosper and to be exported in the region.

 

I believe, Bush is the leader of simple people who has simply no idea about the real nature of global problems and about the ways to solve them.

 

As for Obama, he is obviously a well meant chap but I am afraid he will realize soon that the reins of the country have not been trusted to him exclusively.

 

 Let´s see just how well reasoning with terrorists go over compared to patriotic bullshit.  I haven´t seen this process work effectively.  What does this have to do with Bush? I find it quite comical that people are still on this Bush hatred.  <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)Are you saying that we should have imposed our ideals of womens rights on a another country.  So tell me when would you like for us to mind our own business?  It´s like having your cake and eating it to.  It doesn´t work that way vineyard. 

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:55 pm

 

Quoting teaschip

  Alamada, I suggest you reread my post then..sound familiar? I do indicate 9/11 and you failed to mention it was the Clinton Administration who received warnings well before Bush took office. 

 

 Do you recall the 1993 bombing of the WTC?  To remind you that was under the Clinton Administration.  You probably also believe in the conspiracy the administration plotted these acts of terror.

 

 I would rather fight the war on terror overseas than on our own soil.  I have more fear that Obama and his show boat feel good invitations don´t invite the extremist to take the opportunity to visit our backyards.

 

Even the most far out liberals I know can´t deny that the Bush administration did keep this country safe.. Obviously your terminology of what safe means must be quite different than the average joe I know.  But then again that doesn´t surprise me.

 

 

Do I remember it....I was there and lived through it....

 

 Safe, are you kidding?????...5,000 US soldier deaths....over a million dead Iraqis 5 million displaced Iraqis....yes that administration really made people love us and wish us well being.  They there are some 300,000 U.S. troops are suffering from major depression or post traumatic stress from serving in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and 320,000 received brain injuries. Safe indeed.

 

Then how about Katrina...."your doing a heckuva job Brownie"........warned days ahead, but did nothing.....


Video shows Bush got explicit Katrina warning

You know, I find your accusation very annoying and a disgrace.  I lost friends in 9/11,  people I cared a great deal for. So....how dare you infer I don´t care!

 

Clarke, a veteran Washington insider who had advised presidents Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Clinton, and George W. Bush, dissects each man´s approach to terrorism but levels the harshest criticism at the latter Bush and his advisors who, Clarke asserts, failed to take terrorism and Al-Qaeda seriously. Clarke details how, in light of mounting intelligence of the danger Al-Qaeda presented, his urgent requests to move terrorism up the list of priorities in the early days of the administration were met with apathy and procrastination and how, after the attacks took place, Bush and key figures such as Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Dick Cheney turned their attention almost immediately to Iraq, a nation not involved in the attacks

 

Clinton, according to Clarke, understood the gravity of the situation and became increasingly obsessed with stopping Al-Qaeda. He had developed workable plans but was hamstrung by political infighting and the sex scandal that led to his impeachment..........they spent over $50 million dollars to proove. The spending of over $50 million dollars to discover what two consenting adults did in private is a disgrace.

 

But Bush and his advisers, Clarke says, didn´t get it before 9/11 and they didn´t get it after, taking a unilateral approach that seemed destined to lead to more attacks on Americans and American interests around the world.

Against All Ememies

 

Then during the Clinton administration these were thwarted

 

1993 plots against Holland Tunnel, Empire State Building, UN headquarters

Mid-1990s plot to bomb CIA headquarters

December 1999 plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport

 

All of which the Clinton administration dealt with successfully. 

 

I am glad we have a president with intelligence and diplomacy.  After the last 8 years we need it.....then we still have idiots like Rush Limbaugh saying things like "I hope he fails"

18.       teaschip
3870 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 09:57 pm

Quote:

Holocaust wasnt our crime, so why would we pay for it ?!

 

That´s simply the attitude I´m referring to.  No way It wasn´t my crime either, however I recognize it.  His reference to it had nothing to do with blame.   A show of silence when he referred to Israel deserving peace and no response from the crowd, sent a loud message I believe.Sad

19.       alameda
3499 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 10:01 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

 

As for Obama, he is obviously a well meant chap but I am afraid he will realize soon that the reins of the country have not been trusted to him exclusively.

 

 ........sigh.....sad but true.........

and he certainly does not have much wind at his back.....

actually I shudder to say it, but I fear for his well being. 

At any rate, it is an improvement.

20.       CANLI
5084 posts
 05 Jun 2009 Fri 10:09 pm

 

Quoting teaschip

Quote:

Holocaust wasnt our crime, so why would we pay for it ?!

 

That´s simply the attitude I´m referring to.  No way It wasn´t my crime either, however I recognize it.  His reference to it had nothing to do with blame.   A show of silence when he referred to Israel deserving peace and no response from the crowd, sent a loud message I believe.Sad

 

 Dear, you recognize it, but we pay for it.

That is a HUGE difference !

We dont deny it happened, who said we do ?!

But he asking us to give up the land to Ýsrael because they had suffered from a horrible crime !

So what is our crime to pay for that ?!

Ý dont mean just him but through over the past 61 yrs since the establishment of Ýsrael over our lands.

You see, we are victims here

He asked the palestinians to drop violence... in few words he said stop fighting for your land ´the rest of it ´ because Ýsrael has suffred ....so ?!

That what was the silence all about...its a question mark

So ?!

They suffered , why do you make us suffer ?!

Ýts not th doing of our hands, make the one who made this crime pay for it not us.

Give us our land ´ 67 borders´ and then start blaming the palestinians for violence if it occured, but not before !

 



Edited (6/5/2009) by CANLI

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