Choice of European council president seen as move to block Turkish accession to EU

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/20/eu-president-turkey-reaction

I don´t know anything about this person, so is he really against Turkish membership? I really hate the way the EU is playing wiht Turkey!

Herman van Rompuy is a Belgium Christian politician with (understatement in my opinion!) old fashioned views. 

About Turkey and the EU he said:

In 2004, he stated "An enlargement [of the EU] with Turkey is not in any way comparable with previous enlargement waves. Turkey is not Europe and will never be Europe." He continued"But it´s a matter of fact that the universal values which are in force in Europe, and which are also the fundamental values of Christianity, will lose vigour with the entry of a large Islamic country such as Turkey."

Source

So he´s focusing on Christianity vs Islam, not on some actually real issues? Like 80 million of population of a rather poor country and it´s effect on the EU? That is just sick..

 Yeah. We Europeans are all Christians

And since when does ´universal´ mean ´everyone but the muslims´ ?

Ridiculous.

My idea. Like I said: he´s old fashioned. (At least.)

Bize Avrupalılar hep laik derler. Oysa adamlar hrıstiyanız hristiyanız diye bas bas bağırıyorlar. Türkiye´de bi partinin adı Müslüman ... Partisi olsa , şeriat geldi , laiklik elden gidiyor diye kişnerler

oysa şimdi öğreniyorum ki meğer Avrupa´da Hristiyan Demokratlar diye parti ismi bile varmış .

Ay siz de bozmaz o laikliği biz de bozar ...

Would you please post in English in the main forum? As you know, most people don´t know Turkish here. Thank you.

Yes, thank you

 Though I agree with most of your post, you should know something about the Christian Democrats in Europe (actually Ill give example of Netherlands) and also about the fear of AKP in Europe. Because Christian Democrats arent as orthodox as they sound, and fear of AKP first arouse in Turkey and then came to Europe.

Most strict Christians are against abortion and euthanasia. You would think that a party that calls itself Christian is tehrefore against these things, or at least would want them to become illegal for the Christians you´d think they represent. Neither is the case. This party acknowledges the necessity for abortion and euthanasia and has no wish to make it illegal. The most I ever noticed about them being Christian is their emphasis on family values and their name (for me a reason not to vote for them). Most of such parties have their names as a heritage from a time the Netherlands was divided among ideological/religious lines. Nowadays, they dont carry a strong religious signature. 

However, a party called SGP in the Netherlands, calling themselves Reformed christians, they want theocracy in the Netherlands and also don´t let women take seats in the party. I don´t think they should be forbidden (after all its a theocracy and if people vote for them, democracy is the keyword), but their women-policy should be forbidden since it goes against article one of our constitution about discrimination.

The mistake you make in your argument is blaming Europe for being scared of AKP and Islamization. Have you ever spoken to your fellow countrymen? So far all TUrkish people I speak with are anxious about the future of Turkey as long as AKP remains in power. This fear is not a sound Europe´s giving. It is one that first rose in Turkey and then came to Europe (FYI: many western countries think Fethullah Gülen is a great intellectual, so there was no reason for European countries to be afraid of an islamic party that identifies itself with the so called ´moderate teachings´ such as those of Gülen. After seeing reactions in Turkey it became clear Turkish nation itself is in fear of the rise of an islamic party. It wasn´t Europe who went on the streets with red flags against Abdullah Gül. Nor did Europe make cartoons about which headscarf was the most suitable for his wife (the cartoon with the Playboy bunny ears ).

But I do wonder where the EU leaders get this ´Islam vs Christendom´ thing from. I have never heard of people thinking about it that way, and besides the Bible Belt, in the Netherlands it is not that easy to find people of this generation who still identify themselves strongly with Christianity. This insanity should stop.

 I don´t get this sentence. I guess you spelled something wrong. And instead of thanking Catwoman, the consequent step would be for you to translate your post

I totally agree with you. For example I voted for a very small party called ödp.

I also believe that the parties who want communism or shariat should be forbidden.

Nobody is afraid of CHP or AKP in Turkey. If Turkish people want to be ruled by socialism, it

should be ruled by socialism. If people vote for akp, let them vote for that party.

Shall Turkey become like Russia or Iran one day?

answer: I don´t know. However, if people want to have a regime like in Iran, I would respect

the majority. Although I do not like the regime in Iran.

My family will slaughter a cow at Kurban Bayramı but we wont give the skin away to Türk hava

kurumu. i will give it away to a cemevi. Nobody can force me to give it away somewhere else.

hava kurumu forces all alevis to give the "hide" to themselves. it wont work.

a famous Turkish proverb: Korkunun ecele faydası yoktur.

 I don´t know whom you´ve been talking to, but I know many people who don´t like AKP and do fear it will result in Islamization. The centre-periphery cleavage that has been dominating Turkish politics for decades is slowly fading away, but the Kemalist-Islamist agitation is still going on strong. Though ideologies of both groups have changed a lot over time and are very flexible in interpretation, the juxtaposition of ideologies is clearly visible.

For example, schools were closed on the Day of the Republic because of Domuz Gribi. I haven´t heard anyone who believed that was the real reason, everybody was angry that it was just a policy to make people forget about the importance of the Republic and the principles it stands for.

And why respect the majority that wants a regime like in Iran, but not respect the majority if it wants Şeriat (though Iran is not ruled directly by Islamic Law, the Council may sent a law that is incompatible with Şeriat back to the parliament for revision and can veto any law made by the Majlis on religious grounds) or communism? That´s not respect for democracy and majority, that is pragmatism based on your views

Kisnemek zatiniza mahsus.....burada eline imkan verildi diye, salakligini gostermene gerek yok..

Laiklik bir toplumun dindar olup olmamasi ile ilgili degil. Laiklik devlet ve din islerinin birbirine karistirilmamasi ve devletin bir ulkede mevcut butun dinlere esit mesafede durmasi demek. Senin cigirtkanligini yaptiklarin bu tarife uyuyor mu?

Boyunu asan konulardan uzak dur !

Alpha, did you not see my message about writing in English? Do I need to write separetely for you?

Chomsky said that Turkey could become a “significant independent actor” in the region, if it chooses to. “Turkey has to make some internal decisions: is it going to face west and try to get accepted by the European Union or is it going to face reality and recognise that Europeans are so racist that they are never going to allow it in?,” said Chomsky. The Europeans “keep raising the barrier on Turkish entry to the EU,” he explained. But Chomsky said Turkey did become an independent actor in March 2003 when it followed its public opinion and did not take part in the US-led invasion of Iraq. Turkey took notice of the wishes of the overwhelming majority of its population, which opposed the invasion. But ‘New Europe’ was led by Berlusconi of Italy and Aznar of Spain, who rejected the views of their populations - which strongly objected to the Iraq war - and preferred to follow Bush, noted Chomsky. So, in that sense Turkey was more democratic than states that took part in the war, which in turn infuriated the US. Today, Chomsky added, Turkey is also acting independently by refusing to take part in the US-Israeli military exercises.

This is what Chomsky said about Turkey during two lectures organised by the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) in London, by Mamoon Alabbasi.

Sorry, I had not seen your post.

This one? 

Ay siz de bozmaz o laikliği biz de bozar ...

It is a miracle to make hundreds of mistakes in one short sentence.

Ay is exclamation here and needs exclamation mark.Without (!) it becomes the subject of the sentence and means moon. O must be the subject and placed in the beginning of the sentence, but because it was placed immediately before a noun with no comma between, it became an adjective for the following word laikliği. Siz de, biz de here should be written as sizde, bizde.

My lady friends generally find Mr. Chomsky to be a physically very attractive man. Do ladies in this class agree?

Herman von Rompuy is a mediocre politician who generally has no idea what he is doing or talking about. He was deliberately chosen for this office as the kick around boy, for the bigger boys.

He will be kicked around so badly, he will have to retire after this assignement - that is,  if he can live through it.

The mistake you make in your argument, you are unable to realize that AKP is the dog of US & EU, maybe that is why famous west seem to think feto is an intellectuel which made me . By the way most of Turkish people do not have fear(the licker media has of course) as fear not recorded in lexicon but they are mostly worried when they see how AKP is similar to the armistice government of Ottoman. In fact AKP tries to inject fear into Turks via the hoax of Ergenekon as many innocent intellectuels are jailed and are in prison for nearly 2 years without knowing their guilt(2 years they are in jail and trial still continues). Their guilt is clear actually, they are anti-AKP&US, see how democratic islamists, they freed the terrorists who have no regret but they jailed the Turkish soldiers who fought against them, and they name it Kurdish initiative ... 

Ben demokrasinin halkın istediği rejimin olduğuna inanıyorum. chp gibi "Bütün partiler kapatılsın 46 öncesi gibi tek bir parti olsun biz kendi kendimizi seçelim. Hayır, Türkiye demokrat ve laik olarak kalacak.

Dersim katliamını öven, binlerce masum Alevinin katledilmesine sessiz kalanların demokratik olmadıklarına inanıyorum. Öymen konuşmayı yaparken şaklaban gibi alkışlayıp sonra Tuncelili Alevi vatandaşım tepkisini ortaya koyunca kıvıran kılıçdaroğlunun da demokratik olmadığına inanıyorum.

Hadeple birleşip, leyla zanaları, hatip dicleleri meclise sokan chp/shp terörist değil ama akp onlar konuşunca akp terörist.

iki kez gel cemevime, pir sultan abdal şenliklerine katıl göstermelik sonra gel benim oyumu al . bu mu Atatürkçülük bu mu laiklik.

hürriyet, milliyet, posta gibi din istismarı gazetecilerden de bıktı mu millet. 11 ay çırılçıplak kadın resmi, Ramazanda 30 kupona Kuranı Kerim

Dindar değilim ama dindarlara saygılıyımdır. Alevi Dedesi olsun , Cami imamı olsun hepsine saygım vardır.

Yaşasın laik, Atatürkçü, sosyal demokrat Türkiye. Yuh olsun sosyal demokratım deyip bizi birbirimize düşürenlere.

You are another one who has no idea what he is talking about.

Do you know how CHP rated in Dersim, in democratic elections..against other parties like DP and AP, after this Dersim affair.  Why do you  think Alevi citizens of Dersim kept favoring CHP in all elections between 1950-1973.

Dersim affair was one in which Alevi (mostly Kurdish too) citizens of Dersim were saved from the tyrany of few feudal landlords. who had ransomed the region - taking advantage of secluded geography of the area and prevailing economic hardships of TC at the time.

The rebels were fairly warned in advance, than the TC government did what she  had to do !....Had  Dersim people shared your ignorant opinion that they were subjected to a massacre, they would have known better than voting in favor of the political party which mobilized TC Army to conduct this successful military operation.

I honestly think you should keep quite for the next 10 years.

NOTE: Ufuk Uras seems to be getting fatter everyday, since he was elected. Must be the good food in Assembly restaurant.

Sorry to disappoint you but I do realize that. It has been so clear since AKP has been in power. And you are definitley right about armistice government of Ottoman Empire-comparison.

I´ve always liked the word ´Kürt açılımı´. Such a shame they use such a ´useful term´ in such nasty ways. I am not against negotiations with Öcalan for this reason: either you were gonna hang him back in the days, or you will sit and talk and find a solution. I´m just afraid that there isn´t going to be much of a solution that will be fair on both Kurdish and Turkish side. Though I am pro-Kurdish anti-PKK, this government seems to forget the ´national conscience´ is a valid concept in politics. You cannot forget about all the mothers who lost their sons in a terrorist war for all these years, and for what?

As for ´Feto´ (liked that one ), for example Dale F Eickelman, an anthropologist for god´s sake (!!!) is praising the guy. I guess it has to do with the activities of his followers in Europe. They seem much more sincere and much more about muslim integration into the countries they reside in, than their counterparts in Turkey. But then again. If even an anthropologist cannot differentiate between what the world wants to see and what really is going on..

Yes we all know who killed innocent Alevis in 1937 but you are right we should keep quiet

İlk olarak Dersim katliamı değil Dersim İsyanı, CHPyle bir ilgim yoktur ayrıca, halam ÖDP il başkanıdır her ne kadar ben çoğu görüşünü benimsemesemde. Şimdi sen AKP faşizmini görmeyip bana öncekilerden bahsedersen, benim için söylediklerinin hiçbir kıymeti yoktur.

Onur Öymen de yanlış bir şey söylememiştir, söyledikleri doğrudur. Tunceli olayları Kürt ırkçılığının mezhep maskesi altına bürünmüşüdür. Alevilikle de alakası yoktur oradakilerin Kürt alevisi olması dışında. İsyancıların o dönemde civarda bulunan Erzincan, Elazığ, Sivas bölgesindeki köyleri basıp 20 binden fazla Türkü kırmasına ses çıkarmayan Kürt ırkçıları, devletin haklı müdahalesi sonunda teslim olmak yerine devlete kafa tutup ölenlerin ardından, yas tutmaktadır şimdi öyle mi? İsyanı yapanlara o kadar insanın ölmesine sebep olanlara laf yok ama değil mi? Bugün PKK ne ise o gün Tunceli daha beteriydi, bugün PKK´nın fiilen ele geçirdiği bir karış toprağımız yokken, Tunceli isyanında Tunceli, Elazığ, Erzincan ve Sivas´ın doğusu isyancıların eline geçmiştir, devlette bunları çiçekle karşılayamazdı herhalde, bilginize...

Could you please stop writing your arguments in Turkish and translate the posts you have already written in TUrkish? Thank you.

Dediklerine katılıyorum Armegon. Ben de dolar, euro olsaydı oyumu 99´daki gibi dspye chpye verirdim. Ama yok işte. Benim arkadaşım var CHPli akpye küfrediyor durmadan. Dedim ne oldu.

Ya diyo Allah belasını versin akpnin yaklaşık 1 650den dolar aldım. bunlar iktidara geldi senelerdir değişmiyor dolar. Dünyanın en büyük krizlerinden birini geçirdik hala benim aldığım fiyata gelmedi. ben de 2 liradan bozdururum diyordum dedi.

Valla kim ne derse desin çocuk haklı. Benim de elimde 2002de 1.5 liradan aldığım dolarım olsa 7 sene sonra fiyatı hala aynı olsa ben de lanet okurum akpye. Ben de eski mhp dsp hükümetlerini özlerdim. 99da gel 500 binliralık doları bir buçuk yılda 1.5 milyona çıkar.

Eski patronum Caferiydi biliyo benim de chpyi sevmeyen Bektaşi olduğumu. Dedi ben chpliyim. dedim ben de değilim. Sonra dedi ki: biz Kapalıçarşı esnafı çoğunlukla chpliyizdir. Eskiden chp/shp zamanında istanbulda çöp felan toplanmazdı. Dağ gibi çöp birikirdi. Bunu çekmek için akın ederlerdi buralara. İyi mal satardık. Eskiden su parası vermezdik. Çünkü sular akmazdı. Sen daha gençsin benim gibi çıkarını düşünsen sen de chpli olurdun dedi.

Bu dürüst gerçeği chpli patronumdan öğrenmek beni açıkçası biraz şaşırtmıştı.

 Are you a Turkish Teacher who teaches Turkish to foreigners but cannot understand a simple ´WRITE İN ENGLİSH PLEASE´. Many members would really appreciate the effort of translating your posts.

 Bu arada Onur Öymen´in bizzat kendisi de Alevidir...

Güya he tries to be ironic, so its possible you could not understand his Turkish, let me translate shortly, he tries to say people live a wealthy life because of AKP shortly

I m not sure if Oymen is an Alawee but Mr. Baykal once came to a jemewi named Şahkulu 12 years ago. I shook his hand. He told us that he was an Alawee. However, the same Baykal said in the parliament that he was a Hanafee. I know he sometimes has to lie to be able to trick people but what we also would like to know is that "Which of those lies is true" ?

This government seems to forget many things, people become to hostile eachother, there is a big decomposition going on, like "Müslüman-Laik, Alevi-Sunni, Türk-Kürt" etc, thanks to US and EU, AKP is the horse of troy inside much more dangerous than terorist pkk because they are more sneaky. We have always teror in our country, but people never became such hostile to eachother, AKP succeeded this in a very short time. Turkey has many problems such as unemployment, millions do not have a job, but everyday we see on TVs, people are talking about these decompositions, each day government changes the agenda by this way they continue their sneaky duties given by outside. People continue to sleep. From now on there is no way back, it wont be possible to clean the devastation that AKP caused...

I´m sorry, but I´m going to have to delete some posts if you keep ignoring the request to write in English. You all speak very good English and since this is a "Turkish teaching web site", most people don´t speak Turkish here, but would like to learn about Turkish culture from such discussions. Furthermore, it is the forum rule to write in English in these sections of the forum.

Please delete all Turkish posts in the thread then...

And the quoted ones of course...

Actually it will be better if you delete the whole thread

F-type expert Turkish teacher.....