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LAPPS IN SWEDEN
(29 Messages in 3 pages - View all)
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20.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 07 Apr 2010 Wed 09:46 pm

I am just saying... if you want to use wikipedia as a source to make your point, then at least have wikipedia STATE your point. If you want to say "the world is flat, look at wikipedia!" and wikipedia says "the world is round"...then why are you quoting wikipedia?

 

21.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 12:55 am

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

Yes, it is ridiculous!

 

DD - contrary to what you may hear, it is not a controversial matter.

 

Actually, it is controversial.  This constant haranging on the "AG" issue reminds me of a technique I read about in a book on different ways to get what you want....one of the most primitive, but effective methods was the ram rod technique.  That is...you keep on pressing your point until the other party gives in. If you keep banging a wall, sooner or later if will fall......unless counter measures are taken.

 

Did you ever consider why all these Kurdish/Armenian claims are coming up now? Take a look at a few maps....after the "Genocide" is determined....compensation is next.....and just what do they claim as their lost territories?...........ah....look at the beachfront property!

 

greater armenia

 

kurdistan

 

 

The bottom line....it´s about territory and assets....and as water has been seen to be a serious source of conflict....look at what is there!



Edited (4/8/2010) by alameda [resize graphic]

22.       lemon
1374 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 12:55 am

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

Barba Mama....or whatever....although I love Wikipedia, it is only good as a source for information. That information needs to be verified. Each article has links,

 

As you suggested a little research will show Wikipedia articles change depending on who did the last entry. The Armenians have been very active, particularly in English versions of Wikipedia.

 

There are historic facts that even the most simple minded should able to follow, if they choose. 

 

Fact number one is the powers of France, England and Russia had plans for the Ottoman Empire,  and a big part of the strategy was to turn the citizens to revolt against their country. This is clearly shown with the Arab Revolt....aka Lawrence of Arabia....The Armenians were just another vulnerable group ripe to be exploited to revolt. They were a large Christian group who were cultivated by the other "Christian" countries.

 

That my dear is a fact. They did join Russian forces and fight against their counrtymen. When the Bolshevik Revolution took place they were abandoned by their Russian "friends". Did you forget the Great Influenza epidemic of 1918, where at least 20 million people died?

 

The issue of what happened during those years when the "Armenian Genocide" is to have taken place needs to be looked at without a jaundiced eye.

 

I do agree with you regarding the wiki. It is not a stable source of information. I personally witnessed the manipulations, thus I changed my mind as for its reliability. However, it is still a great source of information.

 

I also do agree with you on the Armenian lobby. Having now said that, you cant deny that it can also be vice versa. Turks arent stupid or weak to simply not push their own campaigns.

 

Yes, the world powers long before and after WW1 tried to crush and divide the Ottoman empire between themselves, successfully.

 

Great Influenza. What has it to do with the subject? {#emotions_dlg.think}

Although, the old good wiki states the mortality could have reached globally 50-100 million.

 

 

 

23.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 01:25 am

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

I do agree with you regarding the wiki. It is not a stable source of information. I personally witnessed the manipulations, thus I changed my mind as for its reliability. However, it is still a great source of information.

 

I also do agree with you on the Armenian lobby. Having now said that, you cant deny that it can also be vice versa. Turks arent stupid or weak to simply not push their own campaigns.

 

Yes, the world powers long before and after WW1 tried to crush and divide the Ottoman empire between themselves, successfully.

 

Great Influenza. What has it to do with the subject? {#emotions_dlg.think}

Although, the old good wiki states the mortality could have reached globally 50-100 million.

 

 

 

 

The great Influenza Epidemic has a lot to do with the death tolls of the time in question.  It was the first international epidemic that spread so fast as to almost cover the whole world simultaneously. It is estimated between 20 to 40 million people died because of it. (a lower number, not from Wikipedia)

 

Trench warfare during WWI and the airplane helped spread the disease around the world.

 

The difference between the Armenian lobby and the Turkish one is the fact that there are many more Armenians living in comfort in the US who have mastered how to communicate and express themselves here. I was reading an interesting article on racisim and it mentioned the influx of the Armenians during the early part of the 20th Century. They just barely were able to slide by as "White European", instead of Asian giving them access to property and citizenship rights.

 

Living in a place, learning the cultural nuances, as well as language, helps of knowing how to promote one´s agenda.  One is more able to integrate into the society one wants to influence. I actually doubt if many of the second, and third generation Armenians know much about the historic facts of the early part of the 20th Century themselves. They only know what grandma or great grandmother or uncles told them. It feeds hate, and that is never good. As I have said before, IMHO....all war is a type of genocide. It was a war.....and until that is dealt with it is just another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

"During a revealing moment in the history of American citizenship, the line between white and non-white blurred briefly. Fleeing from genocide in their homelands, 50,000 Armenians had come to America in the early twentieth century. In 1909 federal authorities classified Armenians as ´Asiatics´ and denied naturalized citizenship to Armenian immigrants. But shortly afterward, in the Halladjian decision, a U.S. circuit court of appeals ruled that Armenians were Caucasian because of their ethnography, history, and appearance. Four years later California passed its alien land law, but the restriction did not apply to Armenians. By 1930, some 18,000 Armenians lived in the state; their access to land ownership enabled many Armenians to become farmers in Fresno County. They became wealthy farmers-owners of vast acreage and leading producers of raisins. ´The Armenians, they like the Japanese,´ recalled a Japanese farmer of Fresno. ´Lots speak only Armenian-just like Issei immigrant Japanese. They came about the same time too. But I think they learned a little bit more English than the Japanese did and they looked more American and I think it helped them a lot.´ The experience of the Armenians illustrated the immense difference it made to be Caucasian and not ´Asiatic.´"-R. Takaki, Strangers From a Different Shore



Edited (4/8/2010) by alameda [add]
Edited (4/8/2010) by alameda [sp]

24.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 09:43 am

To say that the Kurdish issue is simply about assets is a very limited view. Did you forget that Kurds in Turkey weren´t even allowed to write or speak the Kurdish language in public for many years? Was that an asset-thing too?

 

 

Since this isn´t only about Armenians anymore, an interesting outcome from a questionairre:

"Political dissociation between the Turks and the Kurds becomes most concrete on the matter of whether Kurds want a separate state. A full 64.4 percent of respondents hold that Kurds want a separate state whereas only 24.6 percent do not agree with this statement. This perception becomes even more obvious in terms of ethnic background. A total of 71.3 percent of Turks hold that the Kurds want a separate state whereas only 17.9 percent do not agree with this statement. On the other hand, 59 percent of Kurds indicate that they do not seek a separate state. The figures show that there is a visible perception suggesting that the Kurds want their own independent state."

 

Source: http://pollmark.com.tr/Haberler.aspx?ID=76



Edited (4/8/2010) by barba_mama

25.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 08:26 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

To say that the Kurdish issue is simply about assets is a very limited view. Did you forget that Kurds in Turkey weren´t even allowed to write or speak the Kurdish language in public for many years? Was that an asset-thing too?

 

 

 

Well Barba, I certainly hope you are not so naive as to notrealize the fact that it is ALWAYS about assets! Always....weather those assets are tangible or intangible, it is about territory, space personal, physical, metaphysical.....and how those are shared...or not...

26.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 09:28 pm

 

Quoting alameda

 

 

Well Barba, I certainly hope you are not so naive as to notrealize the fact that it is ALWAYS about assets! Always....weather those assets are tangible or intangible, it is about territory, space personal, physical, metaphysical.....and how those are shared...or not...

 

It seems you and I define the word asset differently. For you, speaking a language or being able to express you culture is an asset. Since I have a business background, I see assets as things like money, land, and such. I do know there is such a thing as an intangible asset (like a trademarkt or goodwill). However, it seems your vague description of assets would simply cover everything in the entire universe. So yes, in that case, it is always about assets since everything is assets. But if you use this word, it makes the issues discussed here sound like they are about some form of greed.

 

By the way... why no remark on the part about Turkish perception and Kurdish opinions?

27.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Apr 2010 Thu 11:40 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

It seems you and I define the word asset differently. For you, speaking a language or being able to express you culture is an asset.

 

Well of course those are assets! Have you ever made or read a resume?

 

Since I have a business background, I see assets as things like money, land, and such. I do know there is such a thing as an intangible asset (like a trademarkt or goodwill).

 

I define asset as it is...not as I would like it.  Word meanings go through metamorphisis, but the actual meaning remains. You are right, in today´s popular culture an asset is mostly defined as a tangible property that can be traded.  If, however if you analyze just what property is, it´s something held to be of value that can be moved from place to place.  Bluebird of Happiness? Think of things we do to gain love and respect....


However, it seems your vague description of assets would simply cover everything in the entire universe. So yes, in that case, it is always about assets since everything is assets.

 

In the end, health, happiness and being loved and loving are what everyone wants.  All value is dependant on how it relates to those matters.  Have you never heard the saying, "without love there is nothing at all"?


But if you use this word, it makes the issues discussed here sound like they are about some form of greed.

 

And yes....the issue IS about some sort of greed to control very valuable assets.........water being the most obvious one.  I don´t think wanting to control valuable assets is anything new. What do you think wars are about?

 

By the way... why no remark on the part about Turkish perception and Kurdish opinions?

 

Regarding your last remark........Unlike some, I only comment on what I actually have knowledge about.....and of course....any survey can easily be manipulated....so what else is new?

 

 

28.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 09 Apr 2010 Fri 05:13 pm

I do see water as an asset yes, I´m not an idiot or something. But I don´t see having the freedom to speak the language of your parents in public as an asset, but as a basic human right. Fighting for that freedom is not a form of greed, but part of being human. That is why I say the "asset-view" is a limited one, and it ignores the human side of the story. I have grown up in a country where I have always been able to speak my parents language inside my home, and outside my home. I have always been able to express my feelings in writing, in any language that I would seem fit. Turkey has a vast group of people who can´t say the same. Luckily big steps toward progress and personal freedom are being made, where people can speak the language, sing the songs, and write the things they want to write. Polarizing views have never helped anybody. And looking into the history of Turkey from different sides, and from ethnicities that are not your own will also not hurt anybody.

 

29.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 10 Apr 2010 Sat 06:09 pm

Kurds - currently armed in the mountains - are about to be lured into the same trap rebellious Armenians were fooled into around 1915.

Guess by who ?



Edited (4/11/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/11/2010) by AlphaF
Edited (4/12/2010) by AlphaF

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