+1000

Of course it is brainwashing!!

And of course it is not "normal". But what sort of reaction would you expect from brainwashed people?

The reactions you are getting is just perfectly fitting the description of brains washed people´s reaction..

Ataturk was just a human being. Although his semi-god status started  when he was alive, but with each military intervention (1960/70/8, he was elevated to god like status by the soldiers in order to keep the statusquo in which ´the elite´ runs the country on behalf of the people..

Anyway..I saw up the posts, people accused you for being ignorant about Ataturk..

Now I am asking them :

what do you know about Ataturk? Every human being has ups and downs, faults, many points to critisise etc..

Can you write an A4 page critisising Ataturk for example?

Apart from anything, You may not be aware but Turkey is changing. We are not like North Korea any more.. People know that many info/documentation about him/what he was like/what he thought  etc have been hidden from public to keep his semi-god status.. Now, I can see many people people critisising Ataturk in Turkey. (They would do in the past but not in public..)

So get used to the idea!! If you want to defend him, make sure you have some knowledge about him ( i mean more than what you learnt during brainwshing process).

I am not talking about extreme groups. They are also as blind as the others.

In Turkey, if one says that Ataturk was wrong in some points, the society begins to blame him/her and don´t hesitate to declare him/her as traitor! S/he can not take place in the adminstration level. Because, blind followers of Ataturk uses him as a shield to their policies. Ataturk is the magic word for politicians who just seeks heir own benefits. And I think thats as ugly as using religion for political purposes.

Those people are obsessed and using Ataturk as a figure for their own sakes. And those people expect the whole society to be as obsessed as them. Those people occupy very important seats in Turkey. And they are able to turn someones lives to hell. And they do. Its disgusting that they use Ataturk for their own profits.

Thats why, pointing out that Ataturk was not an angel but he was our leader of indipendence war includes deeper meanings for acumen ones.

I am both against to deify Ataturk or to introduce him as a devil.

Oeince - that´s exactly what I said earlier. From what I read here it looks like there were only 2 ways - either 100% Ataturk or 100% radical Islam. And it´s not true! there are plenty of options in between. If somebody criticises SOME actions of Ataturk or refuses to glorify him, he´s treated like he´s totaly pro radical Islam or totally anti Turkish republic. And it´s stupid! You can be neither - you may appreciate Ataturk without the need to worship him. And criticising him does not mean you´re Islamic or want to sell the republic

Almost all people in Turkey have been tightly coupled to each other during the indipendence war. Because the matter was survival of a nation and all the rest was details. Ataturk was the leader of our indipendence war. And the indipendence war is a heroic story. We owe our existence to our brave ancestors.

After the indipendence war is over, Ataturk have been a politician. And during his era, Kazım Karabekir, Rauf Orbay, Refet Bele, Bekir Sami Bey and others who were the closest compenion in arms of Ataturk, have been judged with capital punishment. Do you think these people loved Turkey less than Ataturk? Absolutely no! So what is the reason of that humiliating action? They were against Ataturk´s political decisions!

Kazım Karabekir was the first person who joined Ataturk during the indipendence war. Rauf Orbay couldn´t turn back to Turkey for eight years. After he has been excused, he refused to come back because he didn´t accept to be excused like a criminal. A hero of the indipendence war was twisted in the wind.

It is possible to add more examples, but to sum up, i think Ataturk was not a democratic person as we have been thought. He was so focused on his ideals, and anybody was important to him but his ideals.

In my opinion we must argue those bravely. Although, the results of those debates would be against our beliefs, we must seek the truth. It´s not logical to accept a human being as reference point with no mistakes. Check your own lifes. Even we have goods and foults in our small lifes. How can Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey can be foultless?

This leader centralism still goes on in Turkey and in the world. Such half of Turkey believes that the existing PM is angel and the other half believes that he is devil. But, indeed, the lifes of these differently thinking individuals lifestyles are not so different. So, what makes people addicted to leaders? What makes people to label everybody and describe him/herself with a fraction? Because, being a part of a group is easy. Not risky at all! No need to think, just support thats enough. Just close your eyes to the mistakes of your leader. Thats enogh. How bad!

If you look for a leader, just refer your own hearts! I myself, just trust conscientious individuals hearts and the power of the society comes from these people. If we can do that, we are able to turn the world to heaven.

We don´t need deified leaders, we just need a well organised system!

We don´t need deified leaders, we just need a well organised system!

(by somebody)

That is one of the most idiotic cliches in life. You show me a well organized system, I will show you the leader who organized it !

Whether you deify that leader or not, is up to you. NO LEADER, NO SYSTEM.

Alpha, it would be better if you didnt describe my ideas as idiotic. I hope you revise that word.

I didn´t say we don´t need leaders, I said we don´t need deified leaders.

Well organized systems infrastructure can be established from down to top. Not from up to down. Because, the ones who will survive that system is the society after the leaders limited life. Thats why the society must take the responsibility of creating a well organized system.

A phrase I believe says "you will be governed as you deserve" That means, the societies qualities creates its own leader.

Its better to change ourselves positively rather than expecting that a leader will come and change our destiny positively.

Oeince - you´re absolutely right

Alpha - but we´re talking here about the case where system glorifies the leader, while I and a few other people argue you should be free to decide whether to glorify him or not

Well organized systems infrastructure can be established from down to top. Not from up to down. Because, the ones who will survive that system is the society after the leaders limited life. Thats why the society must take the responsibility of creating a well organized system.

(by nobody)

Here is another totally false cliche. This one is not (even) idiotic. 

Senin kafana bu sacmaliklari sokanlar, eger kendileri bu lafa inansalardi, sirketlerindeki kapicilara, caycilara ve guvenlik gorevlilerine sirket Yonetim Kurullarinda yer verirlerdi. Nedense, oyle yapmiyorlar !

+1000

I agree with what you are saying above..

It is quite disappointing to see people STILL think societies need strong leaders.. I don´t think you can find this type of ´we need a strong leader´ arguments in developed societies.. It is almost masochistic.. It is same as the story I mentioned in one of my posts: Our leader is our everything and we are all ´zeros´ comparing to him.. (Hasan Ali Yucel-Ataturk story).

I think this type of ´desire to have a strong leader´ is coming from Ottoman times.. There was the sultan and the sultan´s subjects. Everybody was his subjects and the sultan was worshipped.  Of course, suddenly, some people thought that ´we need some one so that these people can keep worshipping´. And the ´worshipping Ataturk´ came into action...

I am not entirely sure Ataturk himself wanted it, in the first place!! 

But anyway.. It was nearly 100 years ago..The times are different.. People who think worshipping Ataturk is normal and accusing others  for being traitor, should realise they are portraying themselves a tad bit backwards. They should stop using the name of Ataturk for their political achievement  and leave him in peace in his grave..

In the end, a strong democracy can only flourish in a strong civil society..

That is what we need.

We certainly need good leaders. The power that a good leader has stems from the adeptness he has in organizing matters. If you are a strong leader in business, people knock on your door and pay you all they can, just to be able to use your services.  For the Catholics, the Pope is the man; their daily lives, moral qualities, do´s and don´ts are all affected  by him. If  it weren´t for Gorbachov and his glastnost and perestroika perhaps there would still be a wall accross Berlin. One man´s vision changes many things in either good or bad direction.

For me Atatürk is one such leader who represents a turning point in our country´s history. He came with a plan at a time of utter destruction and managed to reverse the bad fate of the country. Anywhere in the world, people who did  half of what Ataturk did are given a hero status. He is my hero and source of inspiration. When I remember what he achieved in such an inconceivably difficult period, it fills me with hope and confidence about the things we can achieve if we act with the kind of dexterity he had.

Of course no human should be worshiped, but it´s obvious some have very special talents that have greater impact than others. These are people who are in tune with the time, have special talents and are inspired.

There are authors who changed literature, painters who changed painting (Rembrandt), dancers who changed dance (Isadora Duncan)....and political leaders who changed politics.....these people had vision and strength of character to implement their vision.

Many of us in the US are looking for a new FDR or Lincoln, we had hopes Obama would be more like them. Of course countries need strong leaders. Who wants a wimpy leader...? Can you deny the impact of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr?

Remember, even in Democratic societies, leaders are needed and are elected....and nobody wants a weak leader.

Worship, no, but respect certainly is in order.