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temsilen use
(11 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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1.       sufler
358 posts
 07 Apr 2012 Sat 10:47 pm

Hello!

Could you give me some examples when and how the word "temsilen" can be used and what meaning may it carry? Because I´m a little confused about this one.

Once I saw such a statement:

uzaylı ziyaretçileri temsilen yapılmış (...)

which is easy to translate as: made to represent alien visitors.

So I saved in my mind: B´i temsilen A = A representing B or A to represent B

 

However I found another example today:

Papa 16. Benediktus´un da katılımı ile Roma´daki Kolezyum önünde toplanan 20 bin kadar Hıristiyan, temsilen Hz.İsa´nın çarmıha gerildiği yolda yürüdü. 

And here I have a doubt what to do with temsilen in translation... I actually can translate the sentence without the word: "As many as 20 thousand Christians who gathered in front of the Coliseum, with attendance of the pope Benedict XVI, walked along the way of Jesus´ crucifixion".

But I cannot figure out what is represented by what here... that is, there is no noun with accusative -i suffix, which could be the one "being represented".

2.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 12:29 am

 

As you said ; "temsilen " can be used as " representing someone "

[Onun] Beni temsilen toplantıya katılmasını istedim. [ I asked him to attend the meeting representing me [there ]

 * Also ; it can mean " On behalf of someone " [ adına ]

Yönetmen , ünlü aktörü temsilen ödülü aldı.

The director received an award on behalf of the famous actor.

*********************************************************

But in your sentence , "temsilen" doesnt make sense unless we remove it or change its place.

Kolezyum önünde toplanan 20 bin kadar Hıristiyan, Hz.İsa´nın çarmıha gerildiği yolda yürüdü.

[they] walked along the road where Jesus was curicified.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kolezyum önünde toplanan 20 bin kadar Hıristiyan, Hz.İsa´nın çarmıha gerildiği yolda temsilen yürüdü.

20 tousand Christians  who gathered in front of  Collaseum in Rome, symbolically walked along the very road where Jesus was curicified.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

another word could have been used is ; "temsili" which is an adjective and means reanimating and simulating an event by acting.

So in the sentence "temsili" can be located as ;

Kolezyum önünde toplanan 20 bin kadar Hıristiyan, Hz.İsa´nın çarmıha gerildiği yolda temsili bir yürüyüş yaptı.

temsili bir yürüyüş ---> a simulated walk of  its original [walk], as the original walk was performed by Jesus himself. Those people just reanimating that event.

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3.       Abla
3647 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 08:54 am

temsilen looks like the present participle of the verb *temsilmek. It is even used like a participle. The problem is there is no such verb. At least the dictionary doesn’t know it. Instead, there is the compound verb temsil etmek ‘to represent, to speak for, to stand for’. Is it usual that participles are formed from the first part of compound verbs or did I get it wrong?

 

There is something strange about temsili also. If we suppose the noun is temsil, shouldn’t the adjective derived from it with –li be *temsilli?

4.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 11:36 am

 

In some loanwords we put arabic suffix [nispet ya´sı, Ya-i nisba suffix is ـي -iyy- for masculine and ـية -iyya(t)- for feminine gender] to make them adjective.

       Temsil + i [ya-i nisba]  [ an "hat sign"(^) on "i" can be put in case not to mix that suffix with accusative case]

       Asker [soldier] + i [ ya-i nisba] = Askeri = Military

       Askeri harekat için hazırlıklar başladı --> Preparations for military operation has began.

        Ticaret = commerce, trade

         Ticari = commercial

         Turk = Türk

         Türki = Turcic,

         Türki cumhuriyetler --> Turkic nations [republics [Azerbaycan,Türkmenistan..etc ]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

5.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 11:56 am

 

There is no verb called "temsilmek" as you said. In some compound verbs we put "en" in the loanword noun part of the compound verb by dropping the second part. Such as ;

temsil etmek --> temsilen [on behalf of , by representing,representing, as a representative for ]

emanet almak --> to keep [to take] something temporarily on condition that to give it back to its owner later.

emaneten ---> temporarily

Bu arabayı ondan emaneten aldım --> I got this car from him tempoarily. [ in other words I am using his car temporarily on condition that to give it back to him later ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 12:02 pm

 

misal vermek = to give an example [ misal is arabic loanword]

misal + en -->  misalen = for example [as an example, misal olarak ]

7.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 12:08 pm

 

Another arabic origin compound verb with turkish auxillary verb ;

Tercih etmek = to prefer

tercih + en ---> tercihen [preferably, rather than]

 

8.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 12:52 pm

 

atfetmek = 1. to attribute, ascribe, impute (something) to (someone).
2. to direct, turn (one´s glance) (to).

atfetmek [atıf [arabic origin word] + etmek]

atıf =  attribution, showing one thing as the cause or origin of another

atıf + en = atfen -->

1 considering     ts
2 based on     ts
3 ascribed to     ts
4 referring to, considering

Bana atfen yapılan suçlamaları kabul etmiyorum ---> I dont accept the charges[accusations] that are ascribed to me.

 

 

Hallederiz liked this message
9.       Abla
3647 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 03:14 pm

tunci. Thank you. So interesting.

 

Yani, temsili has been derivated with the Arabic adjectival suffix, not the Turkish one.

 

One example makes me think:

 

Quote:tunci

misal vermek = to give an example [ misal is arabic loanword]

misal + en -->  misalen = for example [as an example, misal olarak ]

 

 

I suggested it was an exceptional way to create a present participle form but is it? Or is -en an Arabic grammatical marker (of what, I don´t know)? ´For example´ is strangely the same in Arabic.

 

10.       tunci
7149 posts
 09 Apr 2012 Mon 12:40 am

 

I admire your persistence and your never-ending curiosity on especially grammar issues Abla.

when I give another look at the issue I am led into a conclusion myself which is the possiblity of  "Arabic grammar marking "-an "

As you know Arabic forms adverbs by adding the indefinite accusative ending ´-an´ to the root. After this clue by remembering the adverbs answer questions such as how?, in what way?, when?, where?, and to what extent?.

Misal + en --> as an example

Misalen = misal olarak

Misalen ben soğuk bir ülkede yaşıyorum. ---> As an example [For example] I am living in a cold country.

How I am living in a cold country ? --> by imagining it. [by exampling it, by supposing it]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

temsil + en --> by representing ,by symbolizing, in a sybolized way.

                        how                   how             in what way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

temsilen yürüdüler ---> they walked by representing [something,somebody]

                                they walked by simulating [it ]..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

therefore I go for the idea of " some arabic origin words are altered into adverb forms by taking "arabic adverbial marking -an to their root"

 

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