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Ottoman Compounds
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1. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:03 am |
Would someone bother to explain how the Ottoman type compounds like divan-ı hümayun are built. They are often used for historical and stylistic reasons and it would be useful to know how to open this structure.
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07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:08 am |
Would someone bother to explain how the Ottoman type compounds like divan-ı hümayun are built. They are often used for historical and stylistic reasons and it would be useful to know how to open this structure.
There are three types of compunds in Ottoman language: Turkish, Arabic, Farsi. "divan-ı hümayun" is a farsi compound. Here is a link: http://www.webcanavari.net/diger-diller/farsca-tamlamalar-t192338.0.html
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07 Apr 2013 Sun 12:45 pm |
Sağ ol, gokuyum. I paid attention to a few things, I hope I got it right:
1. Compared with Turkish compounds Persian ones are built "the other way around", i.e. the modifier comes after the modified.
2. The modifier can be a noun or an adjective, it makes no difference here.
3. -i is used as a signal of the connection between the parts of the compound. (Probably not obedient to vowel harmony in the beginning.)
4. These structures are actually quite a salad of features of different origin: Persian grammar, Arabic vocabulary, Turkish phonetical rules...
5. I think Persian izafets must have had a certain esthetic value in poetry because they break every rule. But certainly they did not make understanding Ottoman literature any easier for commoners.
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4. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 01:11 pm |
Sağ ol, gokuyum. I paid attention to a few things, I hope I got it right:
1. Compared with Turkish compounds Persian ones are built "the other way around", i.e. the modifier comes after the modified.
Yes, you got it right; modifier follows modified:
kuva-i milliye => milli kuva (national forces)
divan-ı harp => harp divanı ( marital court)
akl-ı selim => selim akıl ( common sense)
çark-ı felek => felek(in) çarkı ( catherine-wheel)
arz-ı hürmet => hürmet arzı (presentation of respect)
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5. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 01:16 pm |
2. The modifier can be a noun or an adjective, it makes no difference here.
Yes, it can also be an adjective:
aşk-ı memnu => memnu aşk (forbidden love)
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07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:13 pm |
4. These structures are actually quite a salad of features of different origin: Persian grammar, Arabic vocabulary, Turkish phonetical rules...
Yummy salad!
A+A
ilm-i saadet => saadet ilmi ( science of happiness)
terk-i dünya => dünya terki ( leaving life behind)
misk-i amber => musk mallow
izale-i şüyu => şüyu(un) izalesi (purparty)
Bab-ı Âli => âli bab => The Sublime Porte
Meclis-i Mebusan => mebusan meclisi (Chamber of Deputies)
A+F
arz-ı endam => endam arzı (showing oneself)
fasl-ı bahar => bahar faslı ( the season of spring / springtime)
F+F
şah-ı cihan => cihan şahı (the ruler of the world)
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7. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:41 pm |
3. -i is used as a signal of the connection between the parts of the compound. (Probably not obedient to vowel harmony in the beginning.)
Probably.. but -i followed vowel harmony later.. did not it? Huh..? The forum´s official expert on the Ottoman Turkish is gokuyum and we have to wait him come and help us
zülf-ü yar => zülfüyar
seyr-ü sefer => seyrüsefer (traffic)
hasb-ı hâl => hasbıhal (private and friendly chat)
farz-ı muhal => farzımuhal ( supposing the impossible)
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8. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 07:35 pm |
scalpel you´re great thanks.
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9. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 08:38 pm |
Probably.. but -i followed vowel harmony later.. did not it? Huh..? The forum´s official expert on the Ottoman Turkish is gokuyum and we have to wait him come and help us
zülf-ü yar => zülfüyar
seyr-ü sefer => seyrüsefer (traffic)
hasb-ı hâl => hasbıhal (private and friendly chat)
farz-ı muhal => farzımuhal ( supposing the impossible)
Actually using "u,ü,yu,yü" instead of "ı,i,yı,yi" is not a correct grammatical usage.
By the way let me give you a few example with "yı,yi":
ulemâ-yı İslamiye:
şuarâ-yı Osmaniyye
ma´na-yı şiir
asâ-yı Musa
terazû-yı adelet
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10. |
07 Apr 2013 Sun 10:54 pm |
Actually using "u,ü,yu,yü" instead of "ı,i,yı,yi" is not a correct grammatical usage.
By the way let me give you a few example with "yı,yi":
ulemâ-yı İslamiye:
şuarâ-yı Osmaniyye
ma´na-yı şiir
asâ-yı Musa
terazû-yı adelet
No example with yi but still okay
As I said earlier, I am not an expert on such stuff but it so seems to me that it either should be i with hypen or yi without hypen.
For example:
ulemâ-i islamiye or ulemâyi islamiye
I think y in the middle is this buffer letter and should be used after removing the hypen.
And I think ı and yı forms of the affix are from the vowel harmony.
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