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Ottoman Compounds
(12 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
[1] 2
1.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:03 am

Would someone bother to explain how the Ottoman type compounds like divan-ı hümayun are built. They are often used for historical and stylistic reasons and it would be useful to know how to open this structure.

2.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:08 am

 

Quoting Abla

Would someone bother to explain how the Ottoman type compounds like divan-ı hümayun are built. They are often used for historical and stylistic reasons and it would be useful to know how to open this structure.

There are three types of compunds in Ottoman language: Turkish, Arabic, Farsi. "divan-ı hümayun" is a farsi compound. Here is a link: http://www.webcanavari.net/diger-diller/farsca-tamlamalar-t192338.0.html

 

3.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 12:45 pm

Sağ ol, gokuyum. I paid attention to a few things, I hope I got it right:

 

1. Compared with Turkish compounds Persian ones are built "the other way around", i.e. the modifier comes after the modified.

 

2. The modifier can be a noun or an adjective, it makes no difference here.

 

3. -i is used as a signal of the connection between the parts of the compound. (Probably not obedient to vowel harmony in the beginning.)

 

4. These structures are actually quite a salad of features of different origin: Persian grammar, Arabic vocabulary, Turkish phonetical rules...

 

5. I think Persian izafets must have had a certain esthetic value in poetry because they break every rule. But certainly they did not make understanding Ottoman literature any easier for commoners.

4.       vona
150 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 01:11 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Sağ ol, gokuyum. I paid attention to a few things, I hope I got it right:

 

1. Compared with Turkish compounds Persian ones are built "the other way around", i.e. the modifier comes after the modified.

 

Yes, you got it right; modifier follows modified:

 

kuva-i milliye => milli kuva (national forces)

divan-ı harp => harp divanı ( marital court)

akl-ı selim => selim akıl ( common sense)

çark-ı felek => felek(in) çarkı ( catherine-wheel)

arz-ı hürmet => hürmet arzı (presentation of respect)

 

5.       vona
150 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 01:16 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

2. The modifier can be a noun or an adjective, it makes no difference here.

 

 

Yes, it can also be an adjective:

aşk-ı memnu => memnu aşk (forbidden love)

6.       vona
150 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:13 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

4. These structures are actually quite a salad of features of different origin: Persian grammar, Arabic vocabulary, Turkish phonetical rules...

 

 

Yummy salad! Cool

A+A

ilm-i saadet => saadet ilmi ( science of happiness)

terk-i dünya => dünya terki ( leaving life behind)

misk-i amber => musk mallow

izale-i şüyu => şüyu(un) izalesi (purparty)

Bab-ı Âli => âli bab => The Sublime Porte 

Meclis-i Mebusan => mebusan meclisi (Chamber of Deputies)

A+F  

arz-ı endam => endam arzı (showing oneself)

fasl-ı bahar => bahar faslı ( the season of spring / springtime)

F+F

şah-ı cihan => cihan şahı (the ruler of the world)

 

7.       vona
150 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 02:41 pm

 

Quoting Abla

 

3. -i is used as a signal of the connection between the parts of the compound. (Probably not obedient to vowel harmony in the beginning.)

 

 

Probably.. but -i followed vowel harmony later.. did not it? Huh..? {#emotions_dlg.think} The forum´s official expert on the Ottoman Turkish is gokuyum and we have to wait him come and help us

zülf-ü yar => zülfüyar 

seyr-ü sefer => seyrüsefer (traffic)

hasb-ı hâl => hasbıhal (private and friendly chat) 

farz-ı muhal => farzımuhal ( supposing the impossible)

8.       Abla
3647 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 07:35 pm

scalpel you´re great thanks.

9.       gokuyum
5049 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 08:38 pm

 

Quoting vona

 

 

Probably.. but -i followed vowel harmony later.. did not it? Huh..? {#emotions_dlg.think} The forum´s official expert on the Ottoman Turkish is gokuyum and we have to wait him come and help us

zülf-ü yar => zülfüyar 

seyr-ü sefer => seyrüsefer (traffic)

hasb-ı hâl => hasbıhal (private and friendly chat) 

farz-ı muhal => farzımuhal ( supposing the impossible)

 

Actually using "u,ü,yu,yü" instead of "ı,i,yı,yi" is not a correct grammatical usage.

 

By the way let me give you a few example with "yı,yi":

 

ulemâ-yı İslamiye: 

şuarâ-yı Osmaniyye

ma´na-yı şiir

asâ-yı Musa

terazû-yı adelet

10.       vona
150 posts
 07 Apr 2013 Sun 10:54 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 

Actually using "u,ü,yu,yü" instead of "ı,i,yı,yi" is not a correct grammatical usage.

 

By the way let me give you a few example with "yı,yi":

 

ulemâ-yı İslamiye: 

şuarâ-yı Osmaniyye

ma´na-yı şiir

asâ-yı Musa

terazû-yı adelet

 

No example with yi but still okay

As I said earlier, I am not an expert on such stuff but it so seems to me that it either should be i with hypen or yi without hypen.

For example:

ulemâ-i islamiye or ulemâyi islamiye

I think y in the middle is this buffer letter and should be used after removing the hypen.

And I think ı and forms of the affix are from the vowel harmony.

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