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but suffixes keep bothering me...
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| 1. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 07:35 pm |
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U dönüşÃ¼ yasak.
i encountered the sentence above and tacitly understand it to mean "U-turn is forbidden."
"dönüş" is a noun meaning "turning" and here i got confused about the suffix "ü" that is added to it...i figure it can only be an accusative marker, but again, i don't think it makes sense...there is no obvious verb here that takes "dönüş" as an object, making it the accusative case...
and btw, is yasak an adjective here? or a noun?
please help me...
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| 2. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 07:48 pm |
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Quoting iHeartCrouchy: U dönüşÃ¼ yasak.
i encountered the sentence above and tacitly understand it to mean "U-turn is forbidden."
"dönüş" is a noun meaning "turning" and here i got confused about the suffix "ü" that is added to it...i figure it can only be an accusative marker, but again, i don't think it makes sense...there is no obvious verb here that takes "dönüş" as an object, making it the accusative case...
and btw, is yasak an adjective here? or a noun?
please help me... |
 yasak-tir it is the verb of this sentence
yasak is noun but when you add the suffix "tir" it becomes verb(but only in the sentence)and sometimes we don't add "tir" while writing or speaking.but we know that there is "tir" at the and of the word.it is a little bit complicated.
U-turn is forbidden
U dönüşÃ¼ yasaktir.
dön:normally it is a verb but when you add the suffix "üş" it becomes a noun.
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| 3. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 07:59 pm |
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| 4. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 08:06 pm |
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 thank you!!
"-tir" is equaled to "to be" in english right?
and so i guess yasak can be looked at as an adjective here?
but i still don't get it why the accusative suffix has to be added to the noun "dönüş"...
here is 1 correct sentence:
Sola dönüş yasak.
i understand the suffix -a is added to "sol", but -a is a different sufixx from -ü, and it seems to me that going for the dative case making it mean "to left" is more reasonable...
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| 5. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 08:14 pm |
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Quoting iHeartCrouchy: thank you!!
"-tir" is equaled to "to be" in english right?
and so i guess yasak can be looked at as an adjective here?
but i still don't get it why the accusative suffix has to be added to the noun "dönüş"...
here is 1 correct sentence:
Sola dönüş yasak.
i understand the suffix -a is added to "sol", but -a is a different sufixx from -ü, and it seems to me that going for the dative case making it mean "to left" is more reasonable... |
yasak is not adj.it is normally a noun but in this sentnce it is verb thanks to "tir"
Sola dönüş yasak
Sola:to left
dön(üş :turn(ing)
yasak(tir):is forbidden
"üş" is a suffix that makes the verbs noun
üş changes according to the vowels in the word to which the suffix added
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| 6. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 09:31 pm |
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Hi,
The information given by darrenmania is correct.
Quoting darrenmania: üş changes according to the vowels in the word to which the suffix added |
This is a verbal noun suffix that creates permanent nouns out of verbs. The full version is as follows:
-ış
-iş
-uş
-üş
You simply add the correct one after the verb stem according vowel harmony rules. Here is an example:
Let's take a few verbs in infinitive form:
dönmek, gitmek, bakmak, durmak
To get to the verb stem we simply drop the infinitive suffix -mek, -mak and we have now these verb stems:
dön, git, bak, dur
After this stage you follow vowel harmony rules which means;
-if the last vowel is a or ı you add a suffix with ı
-if the last vowel is e or i you add a suffix with i
-if the last vowel is o or u you add a suffix with u
-if the last vowel is ö or ü you add a suffix with ü
We use this information to pick up the correct suffix and when we have done we will have these:
dönüş, gitiş, bakış, duruş
"gitiş" changes to "gidiş" according consonant mutation rules which is as follows:
The unvoiced consonants p,ç,t,k will change to b,c,d,g(or ğ ) when followed by a vowel.
Because the -iş suffix creates permanent nouns and because there are very limited numbers of permanent nouns that are possible, the -iş suffix has limited usage. My translation would be different than what is suggested above. I think translating with -ing will cause confusion. So this is my translation:
dönüş : the turn
gidiş : the departure
bakış : the look
duruş : the posture
"U dönüşÃ¼ yasak" is best translated as "U turns are forbidden".
The other and more common verbal noun suffix is -me, -ma. It creates nouns from verbs as well. It works like this:
dönme, gitme, bakma, durma. These are not permanent nouns like the other ones above. The -me, -ma versions are used when an infinitive is the object of another verb. The infinitive that is the object takes -me and -ma and then it also takes a case suffix.
Examples:
I started loving : sevmeye başladım
I tried saying : söylemeye çalıştım
I stopped talking : konuşmayı kestim
to start to love : sevmeye başlamak
to try to say : söylemeye çalışmak
to stop to talk : konuşmayı kesmek
to start : başlamak
to love : sevmek
to try : çalışmak
to say : söylemek
to stop : kesmek
to talk : konuşmak
The translation with -ing fits better with these:
sevme : loving
söyleme : saying
konuşma : talking
dönme : turning
gitme : going
bakma : looking
durma : staying
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| 7. |
23 Oct 2006 Mon 10:02 pm |
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Quoting iHeartCrouchy: but i still don't get it why the accusative suffix has to be added to the noun "dönüş"... |
It is not the accusative case suffix but it is the third person possessive suffix -ü in dönüşÃ¼.
This suffix is added because "U dönüşÃ¼" is a noun modification. A noun modification means that two nouns are used to name an object.
Example:
bus stop > otobüs durağı
bus : otobüs
stop : durak
web site > web sitesi
web : web
site : sitesi
When creating a noun modification add the third person possessive suffix to the second noun and when you have to use a buffer letter you use the s buffer. Possessive suffixes take s buffer.
Summary:
noun modification = "noun1 noun2_s_i"
The s buffer is needed if noun2 ends with a vowel.
Some poeple confuse that suffix and will tell you it is accusative. No it is not. These are possessive suffixes:
Benim adım Ali.
Onun adı Ayşe.
Bu benim arabam.
Bu onun arabası. "s" is buffer and "ı" is third person possessive.
The same suffix appears in a noun modification:
"bebek arabası", (push chair) has the "s" buffer and "ı" possessive suffix.
Here is a full list of possessives:
benim ... -m, -ım, -im, -um, -üm
senin ... -n, -ın, -in, -un, -ün
onun ... -ı, -i, -u, -ü,
bizim ... -mız, -miz, -muz, -müz, -ımız, -imiz, -umuz, -ümüz,
sizin ... -nız, -niz, -nuz, -nüz, -ınız, -iniz, -unuz, -ünüz,
onların ... -ı, -i, -u, -ü,
Accusative never takes the "s" buffer but takes the "y" buffer.
Arabayı getir (bring the car).
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| 8. |
25 Oct 2006 Wed 04:29 am |
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Quoting erdinc: The translation with -ing fits better with these:
sevme : loving
söyleme : saying
konuşma : talking
dönme : turning
gitme : going
bakma : looking
durma : staying |
Isn’t it the same as the imperative for the second singular person, if we want to order to someone not to do something?
To make a verb negative, we add the suffix –me/-ma at the root of the verb.
Git-mek > git-me-mek
To make a verb imperative for the second singular person (sen), we use just the plain verb without any suffix.
Git! > Go!
Gitme! >Don’t go!
So the translation could be:
Sevme : Don’t love!
Söyleme : Don’t say!
Konuşma : Don’t talk!
Dönme : Don’t turn!
Gitme : Don’t go!
Bakma : Don’t look!
Durma : Don’t stay!
Now when I see “dönmeâ€, “gitmeâ€, “bakmaâ€..., how could I know is it noun or imperative?
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| 9. |
25 Oct 2006 Wed 04:53 am |
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Quoting slavica: Now when I see “dönmeâ€, “gitmeâ€, “bakmaâ€..., how could I know is it noun or imperative? |
This is easy. If it has no case suffix than it is the imperative. For instance these are imperatives:
gel, git, bak, dur, yürü
And these are negative imperatives (again they don't have a case suffix but just the negative suffix -ma)
gelme, gitme, bakma, durma, yürüme
Since the -me -ma negative suffix is exactly the same as the -me, -ma verbal noun suffix you are right. They could be both but there is one important thing, the noun version takes a case suffix and it takes a case suffix almost all the time. So you will not see the noun version as "gelme, gitme, bakma, durma, yürüme" but you will see it as "gelmeye, germeyi, gelmeden, gitmenin, gitmeye, gitmeyi, bakmaya, bakmadan, bakmayı, durmaya, durmayı, yürümeye, yürümeyi" etc. with a case suffix and a buffer "y" most of the time.
There are three things that have the same appearance:
example verb: yüzmek (to swimm)
1. "yüzme" in "yüzme artık" (don't swimm anymore) is the negative imperative. yüz:stem and -me: negative suffix
2. "yüzme" in "yüzmeyi bırak" (stop swimming) is the verbal noun version. This is also called short imperative. An imperative is the name of a verb, thus it is a noun. -mak is the full infinitive and it is a noun. -ma is the short infinitive and it is a noun as well.
yüz: stem -me: verbal noun suffix y:buffer i: accusative case suffix because bırak takes accusative.
3. "yüzme" in "yüzme dersi" is a permanent noun. This is not the same as number 2. Only a few verbs can generate permanent nouns but all verbs can have short infinitive versions.
"yüzme dersi" (swimming lesson) is a noun modification thus the second noun gets a possessive suffix.
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| 10. |
25 Oct 2006 Wed 09:51 am |
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Quoting slavica:
Now when I see “dönmeâ€, “gitmeâ€, “bakmaâ€..., how could I know is it noun or imperative?
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1- The syllable stressed is different.
In the negative verb case, the syllable before -me- is stressed.
dönme -- don't turn, don't come back
gitme -- don't go
bakma -- don't look
isteme -- don't want
But
dönme-- turning
gitme -- going
bakma -- looking
isteme -- wanting
2- From the context. It should be clear depending on the context. You can't be confused.
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