You can call any Moslem group "idiots", if they treasure intentions like putting their seccades down and  praying in Eifell tower.... if they dont care what non-moslem French will feel about that, why should anybody care for their feelings.

Being a Moslem  (at least to me) is a serious affair. İf god said a Moslem can pray anywhere, he did not mean " in the middle of a circus tent, while the show is on".

Stop clowning if you are talking about Islam, especially in a discussion with me.

All idiots should know damn well that "seccade" is not an obligatory requirement for praying and private praying (not namaz) is allowed anywhere, including St Sophia.

What is your problem ?

Will you shut your bloody mouth up ? You think you know about Islam...but you dont know anything. Of course we know "seccade" is not a necessary item to perfom Namaz. To pray on a dusty and concrete floor you surely need it. As I said, Muslims can pray anywhere, why is that Eiffel tower should be excluded ? what is it your protective love about Eiffel thing ?

Muslims should NOT call other muslims as " IDIOTS" , that is first lesson for you..OK ?

My problem isn´t with your opinion of proper prayer conditions.  I don´t know and am not interested in the technical issues of muslim prayer. It seems some segments of the muslim community don´t feel this is a problem...I just don´t agree that makes them idiots.   

Elizabeth, I have just read a newspaper article (in Hurriyet) that tells about the current frenzy in the (government sponsored/controlled) media to ask imams´ opinion about every single matter.

He tells how a medical doctor attending a TV forum that focused on abortion and caesserian birth was given just five minutes and got abruptly interrupted several times while the clergymen talking on the same subjects were assigned 25 or so minutes. He continues to give more and more examples about this.

In Turkey it is the clergymen doing the talk about anything and experts are getting muffled.

AlphaF must be witnessing this too. That is why he calls these people "idiots". This is quite a hot issue in Turkey. I wish we had more people like AlphaF reacting to this stupidity.

I completely understand what you are saying vineyards.  The same is happening in the US between secular people and conservative religious people.  Many secularists like to portray people who pray as idiots, "red necks" and radicals. It just isn´t so.  Maybe you don´t agree and maybe you are correct but to just discount how people feel and what they do by calling them idiots doesn´t add to the debate it only adds fuel to the fire.  My aim was not to disagree with AlphaF´s opinion but only to disagree with his assessment that these people are just idiots.  

No one here called praying Moslems "idiots" Elisabeth. I said any Moslem who aspired to perform "namaz" in Eiffel Tower or similar places, claiming that its his/her divine right simply because God allowed Moslems to pray anywhere (btw, there are some exceptions) is an idiot.

Perhaps you can understand the situation better if you consider that you may have to acknowledge similar rights for fire worshipping doctors of the world to conduct their prayers in Eiffel Tower too....While some Moslems humbly declare they will be content with just a clean seccade to perform their prayers, those dear doctors would pobably need a good/respectable bonfire at a convenient corner of Eiffel Tower first.

I don´t think you can compare the two groups.  One poses a public danger (fire) the other does not.

In any case Alpha, it seems that the Turkish government is drifting toward a more islamic regime.  I still object to you calling people idiots.   That is simply how I feel.  I understand perfectly that you think its fine to do so because you feel your reasons for doing so are justified.  Again, I respectfully disagree.

Tunci, you muslims have everything at your disposal now. It is weird you are still concerned about where to pray. You have the government, presidency, justice, economy and private sector at your disposal. The acquisiton of the media dogs (as refered to by Mr. Erdogan) is also complete. Now are you seriously feel burdened because the Eiffel tower may not be available for praying?

As a matter of fact, you have the power to turn Hagia Sophia into anything you like. You don´t have to heed the opposition in Turkey anyway. Go ahead and do whatever you want but don´t accuse the opposition for anything. Your guys are bound by themselves. I am sure they are waiting for the day when they feel a bit more courageous.

Vineyard,

I am not concerned at where to pray. I am concerned about some people call other people "idiots" so easly.

People can pray anywhere, not necesarrly has to be muslims. I would be against if some christians would be called "idiots" by other christians or muslims.

I am against extremism in Religion [ in Islam or other religion ]

I am against Hagia Sofia being turned into Mosque as that wont be fair on Christians.

I dont care the goverment.

Anyone should be able to pray in Eiffel tower as long as allowed. That doesnt mean  Eiffel Tower should be converted into a muslim temple.

I understand your fears , fears of  Turkey heading into anti-secular regime. Let me tell you that I would be the last person wanting to see it to happen. I was raised as a Kemalist and I want to die as a Kemalist.[believe it or not]

Your generalising muslims as  you all wanting this or you all wanting that , you have the power, you have this and that,  is not right.

I was raised as a Kemalist too. I lived some part of my life as an atheist. But sufi thoughts effected me a lot and I became a muslim. I had prejudgements about conservative people. This year I started to do my doctorate in a theology faculty. I observe my teachers. They are conservative but they are  good people. They understand humor. They are helpful. Some of them really read a lot and know many things. They are modern. They use technology effectively. My prejudgements blinded me and I couldn´t see how they really were. If there is something to be afraid of, it is not İslam or muslims, it is ignorance and ignorant people. I believe many fanatics are ignorant people and ignorant people can really use violance to make happen what they want. There are ignorant Muslims but there are also ignorant atheists. There are some atheists who would be happy to see all Muslims dead and there are Muslims who wants the same thing for atheists. And not all Muslims have same thoughts about everything. There are many different ideas and interpretions.

We should try to understand eachother. I respect Atatürk but I try to understand what Saidi Nursi wants to tell. I try to be obejective as much as I can. And I know this very well, knowledge is power.