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Turkey cannot turn its back on democracy
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180.       catwoman
8933 posts
 03 May 2007 Thu 11:00 pm

I just want to say that I feel very proud of Turkish people who had the brains and guts to stand up against corruption and political manipulation. If only the Americans and other nations had the guts to do the same thing, god, we would have a so much better world.

181.       Trudy
7887 posts
 03 May 2007 Thu 11:08 pm

Quoting catwoman:

I just want to say that I feel very proud of Turkish people who had the brains and guts to stand up against corruption and political manipulation. If only the Americans and other nations had the guts to do the same thing, god, we would have a so much better world.



+100000000

182.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 03 May 2007 Thu 11:59 pm

Quoting erdinc:

Many Islamic countries are hundreds of years behind civilization. In many Islamic countries females are considered like objects to be bought and sold. They have no rights at all. They have no right to chose the man they are going to marry, no right to vote, no right for inheritance, no right for modern education, no right to work, no right to chose where they live, no right to divorce (asking for divorce would be main reason for killing them).

In many Islamic countries even a cow is considered more valuable than girls. Females are not even counted as children of a family. In many of those countries if you ask a man how many children he has he might say five. This means he has five sons. They don't count the girls. Girls will be sold when they become 13.

Ottomans have ruled those countries for hundreds of years. Those are our neighbours. We have a responsibility in those lands to help our neighbours. We need to help them to become more modern.

For now let's solve our domestic problems but in the future we are going to help our neigbours. Don't worry, with time we'll fix them.


hehehe, thanks again!
btw, here is an example of how iran became extreme islamic very democratic way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOxK4xGfves
everything went smoothly democratic with the help of brainwashed students, so that pahlavi had to give up, he didnt want to use his army.
they say pahlavi wanted to repeat ataturk's achievments, but then he failed, he let democracy take over the power, he lost against cunning people.
history is an open book to learn from, but we never do!

183.       panta rei
0 posts
 04 May 2007 Fri 12:13 am

"AFTER: Working with infamous terrorists"

Hehe! Fantastic! You know, femme fatal, labelling Yasser Arafat as a terrorist no longer works. This is true with Nelson Mandela! Both are already heroes.

184.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 04 May 2007 Fri 12:23 am

Quoting panta rei:

"AFTER: Working with infamous terrorists"

Hehe! Fantastic! You know, femme fatal, labelling Yasser Arafat as a terrorist no longer works. This is true with Nelson Mandela! Both are already heroes.


its a huge mistake to compare a terrorist to mandela!
mandela is a great and peaceful personality!
indeed mandela is a hero!
a terrorist is not!
appreciate your comments!

185.       panta rei
0 posts
 04 May 2007 Fri 12:29 am

C'mon femme fatal! Mandela, like Afarat, was yesterday's terrorist!

186.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 04 May 2007 Fri 12:40 am

Quoting panta rei:

C'mon femme fatal! Mandela, like Afarat, was yesterday's terrorist!


the books i've read about mandela dont say anything about his terrorist past

187.       kaddersokak
130 posts
 04 May 2007 Fri 12:50 am

Quoting erdinc:

Many Islamic countries are hundreds of years behind civilization. In many Islamic countries females are considered like objects to be bought and sold. They have no rights at all. They have no right to chose the man they are going to marry, no right to vote, no right for inheritance, no right for modern education, no right to work, no right to chose where they live, no right to divorce (asking for divorce would be main reason for killing them).

In many Islamic countries even a cow is considered more valuable than girls. Females are not even counted as children of a family. In many of those countries if you ask a man how many children he has he might say five. This means he has five sons. They don't count the girls. Girls will be sold when they become 13.

Ottomans have ruled those countries for hundreds of years. Those are our neighbours. We have a responsibility in those lands to help our neighbours. We need to help them to become more modern.

For now let's solve our domestic problems but in the future we are going to help our neigbours. Don't worry, with time we'll fix them.



no body needs ur help. go ahead and modernize and democratize Turkey first. Ottoman period is over.

188.       KeithL
1455 posts
 07 May 2007 Mon 09:04 am

Quoting kaddersokak:

no body needs ur help. go ahead and modernize and democratize Turkey first. Ottoman period is over.



Turkey has the 16th largest economy in the world, the largest of any muslim nation. And this is without the benefit of oil export. Turkey is by far the most democratic muslim nation in the middle east as well. Arabya should be so lucky to be governed by Turks again instead of American and British.

189.       leander
44 posts
 10 May 2007 Thu 09:41 pm

Quoting armegon:

First of all i am sorry for my English because i tried to translate quickly .

Portrait and some Declarations of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan through 1994-2006

*The time when he was the Major of İstanbul;

“Elhamdülillah we are the supporters of Sheria”(21.11.1994 Milliyet)
“I am against the celebration of New year”(19.12.1994 Sabah)
“I didnt go to dervish lodge(tekke), i went to dergah”(22.11.1997 Gözcü)
“No need to stand like a stake when showing respect to Atatürk” (12.5.1994 Hürriyet)
“Every 10th of November people make useless fuss”(14.11.1994 Hürriyet)
“Alcohol should be banned”(1.5.1996 Hürriyet)
“We will change İstanbul into Medina”(Akis)
“All the schools in Türkiye will be changed into İmam Hatip(school for raising İmams) schools”(17.9.1994 Cumhuriyet)
“The colour of green(the colour of sidewalk) is civilisation”(25.6.1994)
“Only Imams should marry people officially”(9.5.1995 Milliyet)
“I am at the side of to open TBMM(Parliament) with prays”(When he was the major of İstanbul, every year opening of municipality council made by prays instead of Independence March. And again after an opening of the council, he gave this declaration)(8.1.1996 Milliyet)
“I am the Imam of İstanbul”(8.1.1995 Hürriyet)
“Advertisement of swimsuit is a exploitation of lust”(6.3.1996 Hürriyet)
“National lottery is a cruelty”(29.9.1994 Hürriyet)
“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip.These days are so close”(5.2.1996 Akit)
“There is no need of Kemalizm or a regime similar to Kemalizm in the future of country”
“Mosques are our barracks, minarets are our bayonets, mümins(believer) are our soldiers”
“Democracy is not a aim, only a vehicle for us. We are affilied to democracy until we reach our aims”
“Democracy is a tram for us. When we came to stopping place we want, we will get off”

*He was speeching to the public at meeting.

“A cow is sitting on the middle of our way, closing our way, blocking us to reach our range. We will remove that cow from our way at first with words gently, then we will remove somehow by the help of you” (Here cow means Secular Republic and Revolutions of Atatürk.)

*Again at a meeting
“Turkey should be divided into states. And some authority of central governance should be given to these states. And Majors should be the most authorized person. And at that regions everykind of education should also be under control of them”(is the same expressions of dividers like PKK)

“You can’t be secular and muslim both. You must choose to be a muslim or to be a secular. It is impossible, both of them can not be together”
“Our reference is İslam. Our only goal is Islamic State”
“If you say “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene” others have right to say “Ne mutlu kürdüm ””(a reminder from the declaration of Turkish Military “Who is against the conception of Atatürk’s motto “Ne mutlu Türküm Diyene”, are the enemies of Turkish Republic(27.4.2007) )
“1.5 billion of world of Islam are waiting impatiently to stand up of our muslim people. We will stand up and this rebellion will start”

The date of wedding invitation of his son “29 Zilkade 1421”(using Arabic takvim)

*After he became PM

“I am marketing Turkiye. For us given money is important. We market and sell everything, who give money, can take every worth of Turkiye”
“They insist to say secularism is going to be removed, of course can be removed if the people want”
“Women can sit where they want, it is none of your business”( Said to a journalist at a meeting of AKP in Kars asking why women and men sitting apart (at different places))
“The salary given to me is too low(not enough), how much salary do you take”(said to the PM of Germany)
“There is a identity problem in Türkiye. And the concept of “Turk” should be commented as a sub-identity. Anyone who wants then can say “I am a Turk””
“People who are walking with the alleged flags of PKK are wrong but low flight of F-16s of Turkish Army is also wrong, both are wrong”(He equals PKK with Turkish Army)

“We will be taken out of Cyprus likewise how Syria is taken out of Lebonan, they say “ leave out of Cyprus and we will do it like a sheep” ”

“It is impossible for one person to say i am both muslim and secular”
“Did you drink too much? Your mouth smells alcohol”(said to the ambassodor of Austria)
“Stop and listen!...Stop and listen!...9 months 10 days!”(said to a citizen at his speech)
“Look here! Do you think this nation need to work for you all the time”(said to the farmers in Erzurum)
“Is this your job to give a judgement about turban?, This is the job of ulema. What ulema says, it is right”( said to the Human rights court of Europe)

“Who are you? Ulema can give judgement about turban”(said to Danıştay(state coucil court). A few weeks after this declaration, a radical terrorist attacked to the judges of Danıştay who gave judgement about turban and killed one of them, injured others”

“Don’t shake your hand and arm! Every part of your body shaking!”(said to member of parliament)

“Ulan terbiyesizlik yapma! Artistlik yapma ulan! Hadi ananı da al git buradan”(said to a farmer in Mersin, its a rude expression so translation is difficult)

After hundreds of placement hadn’t approved by President of Republic, he decided to execute these places by proxies and said(target is President of Republic):
“We don’t do anything contrary to law, there is a rule like this in Sheria law.”

“What can(will) i talk to that woman?”(said to mother of a martyr)
“Military service is not a place to lay down and rest”( said to the relatives of martyr)

“Call that impostor, What does he want?”( said to a citizen in Germany whose money stolen by green capital…Also at the same meeting he made the ambassador of Turkish Republic booed by people.)

He abased YOK president Prof. Dr. Erdoğan Teziç by saying he is not celever in an argo way.

“I am guaranty to him, i trust him like my father, i believe in him as how i believe in me”
(said at Parliament(TBMM), he became guaranty to Yasin El-Kadı, Then who is Yasin El-Kadı?His name is listed as a sponsor of El-kaide by United Nations)

When PKK ceased fire:
“And then we don’t do military operations” (He is making jest to PKK)


He abased the former president of Turkish Republic of North Cyprus Rauf Denktaş.

“They are shouting as they are in a football match, these are not nice things”( said to the people who were shouting “Türkiye is secular, will remain secular”)

At AKP General Congress:
. Şerefsizler(dishonests)
. Bizim çocuklar açmı kalsın be!
. Kes ulan sesini(Shut up)
. Sana üç nokta koyarım
. Otur ulan oturduğun yerde, herşeye burnunu sokma

*And the others:
Before the elections of 2002 and after he just became PM

“I changed developing myself”

In the 4th year of his government:
“I never changed. Islamic opinions never change”

Lastly his oath against to Republic in 1980’s;
“I am affilied to Muhammed and muslim ummah. Türkiye has become a irreligous, secular state. I make oath(swear) on my religion, Allah and every holy things that i will devote myself to make a war against irreligous secular state of Mustafa Kemal, i will prevent all the irreligous laws of Mustafa Kemal to be performed and i will try to form a state of Sheria” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

When we look at his some declarations through this 12 year when he was a major of İstanbul and when he is now PM;

All can see that he is loyal to his oath in 1980’s and working and trying hardly to perform his oath today. One who can’t or don’t want to see these actions, maybe those are blind or anything else.


“ President of Republic soon will be from İmam-Hatip. These days are so close”(5.2.1996 Akit)




Which civil society organization has attened to the meeting at Çağlayan and which are not;

Attended: CHP, DSP, MHP, ANAP, DYP, GP, SHP, İP, BBP, HP, DİSK, TÜRK-İŞ, KESK, BAROLAR, ODALAR etc.

Not attended: AKP, SP, DEHAP, TKP, ÖDP, EMEP.

Also there will be a new meeting on 13th of May in İzmir Gündoğdu.





Amazing how some people STILL act as if they don't understand what AKPs aim is after reading all of these!

Good summary armagedon, but we need to add these to the list. :

'This is the end of the Republican period.Secular system has failed and we deffinately want ot change it'
This is what AKPs presidential candidate, Abdullah Gül has said to brittish newspaper Guardian some time ago.


Another one from AKP leading politicians :
Bulent Arinc:'Secularity definition in the constitution must be changed!'
Erdogan :'Don't say that.You are talking too early.We have some 10-15 years to get there.'

What more proof do you want that their aim is to change Turkey's secular regime? Slowly but surely ,step by step they are planning to get there.Of course they refrain from doing too pretentious things that will wake people up, before they get hold of all government bodies ,state institutions, justice, universties,etc..
But using the power of being the current government, they get their millitants to important positions in the Education department, Justice department and Security Forces.They change the system that requires exams(objective criteria) to get into those departments, so they can take 'their' man (islamist Akp millitants) in, by applying subjective critereas and don't have to take the ones that have scored the highest points in the exams.Police departments are already filled with islamist millitants.They try to infiltrate into the army as well, but couldn't do it so far.


Before the 'head in the sand people' wake up, they will get hold of whole establishment.
They already took care of the media by threatening and blackmailing the bosses.Not respecting free speech, blackmailing media bosses , pressure media channels and threatening the only remaining oposing media channel and the companies that put their adds on that channel,( kanalturk).There are two big media holdings in Turkey: One is 'Dogan Media' which is under enourmous pressure and caved in.Dogan Media Group even closed the anti-government paper Gözcü although it was selling well.
The other one; Ciner group that owns (Sabah,aksam..atv, etc.).And guess what, government body TMSF seized control of them, claiming there were some ilegalities! After the seizure, Sabah's news manager Fatih Altayli and some other journalists resigned, saying TMSF (in the hand of AKP) puts pressure on them to censure anti-government news and pressure them to hire akp millitant writers like Nazli Ilicak.
They got hold of Uzan media (anti- akp ) long time ago and they even turned music chanels like Kral TV to news chanels, so AKP sympathisers and anti republic journalists like Ahmet Altan can invite likeminded poeple and feed people with their propaganda.Not to mention state channels like TRT already became AKP media .Plus they have their own islamist media ; tv channels ,papers like Zaman , Vakit, Yeni Şafak,etc..

AKP STYLE FREE SPEECH AND FREE MEDIA!!!
If that's not the road that leads to fascism , i don't know what is.



190.       leander
44 posts
 10 May 2007 Thu 09:51 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting leander:

One cannot talk about democracy in a country where people have to live according to the rules of a certain religion.Islamist states cannot be called democracies and our oh-so-democrat islamists who keep harping on about democracy, admitt democracy is not the aim,it is just a tool to get them there where they wanna be.Which is an islamist state thats run by Sheria.And this is islamist-fashism.



When people lie,does that made lying right ?
Helal ?!!!!!!

When applying İslam in a wrong way,then what is wrong is the İslam or the methods,hidden agenda ?!!

And btw,what do you think inspired Westen Democratic countries while putting their own laws ?!

Did they all invent it ?so its all some how very much close to each other,they all got the border lines in one time by hidden inspiration?

But not from religions,No ?!!!
Cannt be ,huh ?!!!

You just memorize,you dont analyze !

Shaking head !!!

And btw,take care of what you are calling fascism !

You can call system fascism ,but NOT religion!




Learn the difference between 'islam' and 'islamism/islamist', -thats obviousely used as a political term and has nothing to do with islam itself-) before you dare to accuse people of disrespecting their own religion in a threatening tone. No wonder that kind of intolerant atmosphere, where likes of you are ready to treathen everyone who don't sound islamist enough for Arab standarts, created terrorist organisations like 'Muslim Brothers', trademarks of Egypt..They are the ones that disrespect and tarnish our beautiful religion.Not the turkish perception of islam which has an emphasis on tolerance ,undertsanding, peace, love of God and love of what God created, and don't reduce islam to just a piece of clothing.

Quote:

You dont analyse you just memorize.



I would analyze your post but i couldn't understand it.I'll do it when i find a a Canli To English Dictionary.
I have yet to hear anything from you that is a sign of analytical thinking.If you think parroting what you read on islamist Arab media about Turkey's secular system impresses anyone here, you are sadly mistaken.

I don't want you to get wasted here my oh-so-analytical-thinking friend.Instead of constantly bashing the turkish democracy which is the only democracy in the muslim world, you'd better use your 'analytical thinking abilities' to save Arab 'democracies' from the pathetic situation they are in.Start with your own country.
I hate to break it to you, but here in Turkey we are not really interested in getting advice from Arab islamists, on their profound(!) experiences on democracy
So, give yourself a rest.

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