Bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim
I send this message just to share my thoughts.
I am deeply sad to see the situation of the muslim woman in turkey who wear scarf.
I mean they are harassed by the seculars!
In order to be in peace in Turkey we should remove the scarf and try to be a moderm muslim... What is modern muslim??? Living like the standards in North america or Europe??? There is only ONE Islam... Not one for the modern people and one for the others...
Woman with scarf can not go to the good university this is against the human rights.Because she wears scarf she can not have the same rights that another human...She is not enough intelligent...What the heck???I am deeply touched and sad for my sisters in islam in Turkey.
I really hope the things will change in Turkey. That every turkish citizen will be treated equal...insha allah

thanks to share your comments about this subject!

selam

This really comes to the heart of this issue philosophically. Is it more important to follow the exact direction of Ataturk or should Turkey relax on the human rights issue and allow women to cover at university?

I really think that turkey should allow muslim woman to wear scarf at school.

I think this is really the time for Turkey to arrive in 2007 and stop to close the eyes on this situation.
DOing that will not improve Turkey ... Those woman are there and they will be still there in 100 years insha allah. Then Turkey should find a solution for this.

This is the feeling of every Muslim woman feels pain and grief of the Turkish Muslim women, many of the Muslim friends who lived in Turkey, when i Ask them about thier feelings when they entering the University and takeoff thire scarf, they said feeling ashamed, as we are entering is not wearing clothes .
I think that the problem was not wearing the hijab, but the mind which was issued Thus Law :-S

And even more direct, which muslim nation would you like to see Turkey to become more like?

I really doesn't know the situation in other muslim country because i am not arab... But I know the situation of those girls in Turkey. Yes the turkish governement is not perfect but if by saying this and sitting will change the situation...it is wrong to think like this. To change the things we have to talk and try...
There is of course things good in this governement but there is place to improvement to satisfied all the citizen.

Elham, with all due respect, find me a Turkish woman that would trade the freedom she "suffers through" in Turkey for the freedom "you enjoy" in Baghdad...

I'm not trying to offend you actually. I am only pointing out that muslim women in Turkey are treated better "as muslims" than maybe any country in the world. So rather thn criticize the country where muslim women have it best, why not vocalize the cause in other nations where muslim women have it far, far worse.

Arab governments have not violate the rights of women . If there were violations of the rights of Arab women are from people who are far away from Islam, They are extremists who have violated the rights of women, through the enactment of laws such as prevent her driving a vehicle or stay at home or wearing the hijab, which covers all her face, or not to go to beauty shops

I totally agree with KeithL. A very good observation of Turkey and the Islamic world.

KeitL - Don't preach about secularism, democracy, republic, other muslim countries, etc. Simply answer me: I do want to wear headscarf, this is my right, my human right, and I have no problem with secularism, democracy, etc, nor do I care about the situations/human rights/women in other muslim countries. For a moment, put all these aside. I live in Turkey, and only the case in Turkey interests me right now. Just tell me: How come you can forbid me from wearing headscarf/turban?

you know the girls here in the usa who by religious reasons wear a scarf...they are allowed this. in the usa no one is begruged an education because of the clothes they wear unless the clothes they wear make a statement/claim to belong to a 'gang' of roughians.

if scarfs arent allowed in some educational institutions in turkey...it seems its only the scarf that isnt allowed. not the person. The fact that that same person has the 'opportunity' for an education yet declines out of personal self preservation...well...it seems everywhere, any country, any school there are rules to allow all others to educate themselves in the most peaceful environment. there must be a reason for the rule or else it wouldnt have been made. anyway, thats how it seems.

We should make a difference between ataturk and Islam.
If you follow ataturk I respect you but if you follow islam you will agree that this case is not correct. This is a personal decision.

The thing is for a turkish girl go in another country to study is most of the time impossible...Then if they can not in turkey where they will learn... You do not find it sad of being punish for your religious decision. One of the thing in the constitution in America is the freedom of religion... It should be like this in Turkey too...

aysenur - we know you are quite excited. But will you let us, too, to post some messages or at least see/notice who has posted what message?

KeithL - I am waiting for you to enlighten me by telling what Ataturk said about the subject/turban!

aysenur...since you brought up your concerns about this subject...what did you find for the reason of banning the scarfs from the educational institution you are referring to? was it always banned? how long did it take to make such a decision? based on what reasons? were the scarfs allowed one day then banned the next? Im curious as to the background information youve researched regarding this...do you know why the came about actually?

You know, KeithL, it is not urgent; you have enough time to search about what Ataturk might have said about the subject/headscarf. I will highly appreciate your answer to my question whenever you feel you are ready to give an answer.

Till then, is there anyone else, preferably a hero(es), who is willing to or could give an answer to my question? Below will read you my situation and my question at the end:

Put all secularism, democracy, the republic laws, other muslims countries and the situations and women rights in those countries aside. I, too, need and will need secularism, democracy, the republic laws, and many more as much as everyone else needs. I have no problems with all these; they are always welcome. On the other hand, I do want to wear "turban", this is a human right, my right, my freedom. Just like everyone has the right and freedom not to wear turban wherever they like, I have the same to wear it wherever I like. So, how come my right and freedom to wear turban, can be forbidden?

My view is that one person sees an opportunity to get an education as progress. One step that was more than a thousand years in the making actually, if you want to go back even before Attaturk. Hopefully, one day the scarfs will be allowed once again.

i think everythings will be finer in our lovely country with the social agreement,and seems need a bit more time and to understand each other a bit more...

MrX67 - I beg you, please don't involve in, at least, this thread, and stop posting such clips from youtube as well, or that spoiled leander with her brain-like thing, will terribly scold all of us again!

MrX just using his rights illegal way brother,any harm?and MrX will be everywhere wheres goodness,friendship and peace

Freedom of religion in the US, someone mentioned here. I don't think so, especially in schools. They have abolished prayer in school and now the ten commandments. Know wonder we have so many kids who are unethical and have no morals. But it's not prohibited to wear a scarf or a cross of symbolic meaning to school. Before long I'm sure this to will be taken away. It's the minority who suffers! The majority says we should abolish smoking in restaurants even though we have smoking sections. Guess what nearly half the states in the US, you cannot smoke in a restaurant. I have decided over the last few months to change parties, I am now officially a libertarian. One last thing to mention concerning the post, you are permitted to wear head scarves in school & in public in the U.S. however, people do often judge it's book by it's cover. American woman have never really accepted the head scarf here in the U.S. and can't understand in todays world, in a country full of freedom (partially true) why a woman would want to hide herself. I am still puzzled with this as well, I have to admit. Woman are beautiful and shouldn't feel the need to hide their beauty no matter what religion they are. But on the other hand, I would never disrespect that person either. I understand customs and traditions and have a tolerance for such, but most people don't unfortunately.

theres never place for any monoploy in true democracies pluralism always better in the rules..

sometimes, one has to take a few steps backwards to see the wider road ahead and always there are obstacles to overcome and new roads branching out. eh, that's life.
If each individual said or claims to make everyone and everything around them peaceful and comfortable, I would call him a liar. all throughout history's past this is the case. If a higher power intended for men/women/woman/man to be equal in all ways as well as have the same way of thinking about things...
one might assume that higher power would become quite bored with humans. One person's alleged mistake is another person's opportunity or inspiration or discovery. Isnt that a wonderful thing?

I really have to ask this question. Şeriat does not allow to go 90 km. without a relative man with you. Şeriat does not allows being around and talk nicely with the man who u can marry. Also şeriat does not allow work outside home, if your husband dont want to (in that case most of them dont). Why are you willing so badly go to university if you cannot have a job anyway? If you insist to work, you will be sinner because you have to use vehicle, touch other men, talk other men, have to travel etc. If this is about education, u can attend college at home as u wish. But if u want to go governer college, you have to obey governer's rules.Simple. I think this is not about right of education. This is about being against the system and check how far they can push.

Atatürk ve Türban


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...Kimi yerlerde kadınlar görüyorum ki, başına bir bez, ya da bir peştemal ya da benzer bir şeyler atarak yüzünü, gözünü gizler ve yanından geçen erkeklere karşı ya arkasını çevirir, ya da yere oturarak yumulur. Bu durumun anlamı, gösterdiği nedir?
Efendiler uygar bir ulus anası, ulus kızı bu şaşırtıcı biçime, bu vahşi duruma girer mi? Bu durum ulusu çok gülünç gösteren bir görünüştür. Hemen düzeltilmesi gerekir."
Atatürk'ün Söylev ve Demeçleri,

I hope that would be an answer for Panta rei
Türk İnkılap Tarihi Enstitüsü Yay., C. II., s. 217.

Just to say, it catched my eye two times here as reading. Iran is not an arabic country.

read my message again. they can attend a home college. rules also says you cannot wear exra mini skirts. any comments about that? U have to wear what the laws allows. If you try to brake the rules you will get punished somehow.
And Panta rei Atatürk died 69 years ago remember? If he did not he could say something pretty close what we say today to you. You(not in person) are not fighting simply for scarf. It is about doing something law and authorities says"dont". My mother wears a traditional scarf, she goes and went everywhere she wants. Turban is pretty differnt thing, you know it, ı know it, almost everyone know it.

aslı - Don't preach us about şeriat! Please be sure we, too, know what is what as much as you know. When the subject/issue here is şeriat, say all those and many many more. (they would be always welcome.) But before taking "the speck out of your brother's eye", first take "the plank out of your own eye." For our issue/subject here is "the plank in your eye".

Now tell me - How come you can forbid me from wearing turban/headscarf?

I cant. Laws can.

qdemir Children does not have to wear scarf! We are talking about grown ups here. Açıköğretim Faculty is not otherizing facility. It is for people who have full tim e jobs, kids etc. so they can have an university degree. It is a pretty good option who simply wants to go to university and wear scarf too. You show me one straight muslim just have KURAN nothing but Kuran. They have cults, they have efendi's and they have strategies. The way they wear their turbans tells all. Tie around neck, you are in this cult, pin it on top of your head, you are in this cult, tie it back of your head, you are in this cult, tie it under your chin (just like mother and most turkish mother does) you are not a part of them. Have you see anyone looking like that at the university door? Or are they just like the first three ones?

OK. Master! Yes thank god there are laws, and thank god again they cannot change easily as you wish.I am not hiding behind laws. Laws are made by human needs, change by human needs. You have to live the way today, til you reach your goal I did not and I can not preach about şeriat, these are the rules u can easily find on net. Try.

I did not say Islam! I said şeriat on purpose. Watch out.

Ok. some can say my right to wear "çarşaf", some can say my right to cover my face. Will you agree with all of those? If not why and how?

aslı - believe me, I will answer your question. But before that, I am waiting for you to submit/admit (of course, sincerely and honestly not for passing over the matter lightly!) my right and freedom to wear headscarf/turban!

We have some understanding issue here. Wear it except public area!

Panta rei I think you were a male but if you want to wear headscarf so badly what can ı do? Wear it. Do you really think you can change my idea by keep asking the same question over and over again? take your time.

Well, is there anyone else who is willing to or could give an answer to my question below, except for Ataturk's related(!)view and mentioning the laws (for we already discussed these two points.)?

Oh boy he is a warrior now.

What is your point?

why islamists keep going on demanding and at the end reaching their goals in the whole world? in all western countries muslim women wear freely their shapeless burqas/hidjabs meanwhile the request of human right activists to not force women be wrapped up with a cloth is still ignored?
maybe western countries should also ban all the wrapping cloths in reply to the ignorance?
in turkey you request your right, while in arabic paradises turks/others are faced to live according to the local islamic laws. wheres the justice?

It seems noone cares about your opinion but me! Take it for an answer for all your questions. You cant. Laws says so, world says so, moral says so, brain says so. If you want to do, take other rules with headscarf, obey them too, stay at home.

Ahhh aslı, I see you have started to lose your temper and talked nonsense!

I am not loosing my temper, ı have a real life, just tired and sleepy. Be right back.

femme. Dogmas are dogmas

the host of the topic is very silent. is puzzled? scared of asli? or didnt expect its not her level? or lost in arguements?

Doesn't America's constitution also believe in seperation of religion and state? Keep religion out of public schools. And hardly the same issue as what is going on in Turkey by the way...

As was mentioned, in the USA, prayer in school is banned, but headscarfs, and other religious headress are allowed.

I think if the headscarf is just clothing, it should be allowed BUT, if it is a expression or statement, like a prayer, it should be banned. I am starting to think that the USA should also ban headscarfs in public schools.

Well, I believe that everyone has the right to practice their beliefs.
I also think that women can attend university with their heads covered.
Not because university itself, but basically people attend university at the age of 18, which is the legal age for giving their own decisions.
I am against praying and and religious symbols in schools before university.
First I believe that although values are given by the family, I believe that society is there to protect the innocence of the child. I believe this also covers to protect the child from any extreme.
So with this reasoning, society must also protect the child from an overdose of religion. Because this may later result in a lesser free-mind.
My fear is that if we let children under 18 to have religious symbols on them, this can easliy be a race between families to express how religious they are. (And believe me it will be the case)
The families will start to express their devotion first by this symbol, amd then they will send them to arabic courses, then they will send them to memorise Q'uran and they will attend contests for the best poem to prophet. Then their families will decide on not sending them to school.

With this reasoning, I support any religious, political ... symbols in schools banned for children under 18. And this idea is not a law in Turkey, it is also approved not to be against Human rights by European Court of Human rights.

As I told after the age 18 I have no problem for the students to wear on school.

But for teachers, professors or any goverment official I am also against since state officials does not have the right to express their political or religious position while exercising their duties.

If there is any person thinking that head scarf is not a symbol, I can write a longer message to tell the historical background.

may be will be very extrem question,but need to ask,who can say mini skirt a political symbol????who can mortagage on basical human rights,if they r using ___in rules__????

Is there a limit to Human Rights? Can Any1 put a limit to rigths of others?
Basically by living in a society, we are giving up some of our individual rights.
In fact limiting religious symbols is not a direct threat to Human Rights. As one of the posters stated, it is a limitiation to wear them in the school. You can wear outside of the school. Every institution has the right to put some limits, for several reasons.
If some say that you can not attend school because you are a muslim, or you are a not accepted to a school because your father is an atheist... This is absolutely discrimination, and against HRights.
But to define rules inside the institution itself (in the name of neutrality) to me is not against Hrights.

Let me give a small example on why I am not favoring religious symbols and such in schools.

Just recently, parents of a 15 year old girl, documented that there has been a mescit (small mosque) in one of the high schools. And their girl was effected by some of her friends, and started practising.
This was my point to ban political and religious symbols and acts from schools for children under 18. To me it is the same logic to ban tobacco and alcohol. It is not because religion or politics is bad. But what is acquired at early age by the child , is against the child's wish. And this will result in a dogmatic, extremist person later.

In an ideal world people should be allowed to wear what they want.But we don't live in an ideal world, do we? People aren't free to wear what they want anywhere.Can one go to the university wearing a bikini?Or go out without wearing headscarf in some muslim countries? Or wear a a nazi swastica in germany , or religious symbols in france.One could say my human rights are violated in all of those cases.Can one say "well, im a nudist, thats my belief, so i wanna go around naked but they don't let me!", are we supposed to allow him/her to in the name of not violating his/her human rights?There are restrictions everywhere in the name of public interest.Thats clear.
Of course religion is a more sensitive issue.But 1-There are no verses in the Quran that says one MUST wear a headscarf.But as far as i know in some hadiths (although some hadiths existance is disputable among islam schoolars) it is advised.But as i stated above its not a farz to cover hair.
So expecting one to obey the laws in Turkey doesn't harm a muslims position in islam.Doesn't make her a sinner or anything.So there is no contradiction between her religious beliefs and obeying laws.
As for why those restrictions are in place in the laws of a country like Turkey which is predominantly muslim but has a secular regime, it is justified in my view.For several reasons.First of all, no regime is suicidal and tries to protect itself.Everywhere in the world.Including the countries that are considered as the bacons of democracy.And Turkey is a "secular democractic social law state" as its stated in its constitution.(And acording to ANY poll turkish people support the secular nature of Turkey with OVER 90%. Plus secularity is an essential component of democracy, in a teocracy where people have to live acording to the rules of a religion one cannot talk about democracy.)
Therefore its natural Turkey tries to protect its secular nature.In the 80's fundementalist islamist movements that want to change Turkeys secular regime and place an islamist Sheria regime started to bossom not only with the $$$$ thats been coming from oilrich sheria regimes like Saudi or Iran cus they see turkish model as a threat for their own regime, but also with the help of US supported green belt project, where the idea was to support the islamist movements in the name of combatting communism.(Taliban is another fruit of the same project )
So "türban" as we call it in Turkey ,which is different than the normal headscarf thats worn by some women in the rural areas , became a symbol for this movement.In my moms young days for instance there was noone wearing this kind of türban neither in cities nor in the rural areas.Where we less muslim then?
What i am trying to explain is , that "türban" (not the traditional headscarf=başÃ¶rtüsü ) is seen not as a RELIGIOS symbol but a POLITICAL symbol that wants to topple the secular regime in Turkey.Thats why türban is banned in government buildings and universities.Actally wearing any political symbol is banned in universities because of the terrible experience we had with the bloody right wing/ left wing clashes in the 70's which eventually lead us to a coup.
So States reason by banning türban is deffinately NOT because it has a problem with religious people and wants to opress them like some islamists like to claim, its because it doesn't want this POLITICAL fundamentalist movement to spread and devide people as religious ones/not religious ones which could result in clashes again.
Plus, it would put pressure on students to cover themselfs in time against their will, cus they would be labeled as not muslim enough kafirs, namuzsuz etc.We all know how these kind of pressure COULD force people to cover especially in conservative countries like Turkey.Immagine you live in a neighboruhood in Turkey where everyone wears chador or türban and is islamist which means= wants everyone to live acoridng to quran, not only acording to quran but acording to THEIR perception of Quran btw.Would you be able to freely dress as you wish there?Could you? Would you really feel free to go around in miniskirts for example ? Lets face it the pressure on the not covered ones would always be 1000 times more than a covered religious woman who wouldn't be condemned anywhere.After all they are just religious but according to the mentality of the fundamental islamists notcovered ones are sinners , kafirs, "namuzsuz" etc.So that kind of atmosphere would harm the secular nature of the country and violate the ones rights who don't want to cover.
Of course, i wouldn't want a womans right restricted to attend the university who carry it just because of their religios convictions, but i see türban as a symbol of political movement that wants to harm peoples rights and freedoms, although there might be ones among them who wear it without having any political agenda.So, under these circumstances, as long as this movement that tries to pressure people and change the regime is there, allowing türban in universities will not be possible in my view.Maybe in the future.

Well spoken, Leander.
When we separate "Religion" from "Politics", everybody will be free to live their religion.

and when we sperate our worries from freedooms everythings will be finer to...

What exactly is what turks apparently call a "türban", is it something like a niqab or how do you define it? Can you show us a picture please?

tekbir giyim
I hope above link can help about "türban"

i think thats the one of most discuissing topic in Turkey since long years with a big obstinacy >>>>>>http://images.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=http://img.blogcu.com/uploads/LeyLi_36arminek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://leyli.blogcu.com/402546/&h=320&w=320&sz=25&hl=tr&start=2&tbnid=l-TquByZaAAKxM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dt%25C3%25BCrban%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dtr%26sa%3DG

and thats really very sad we still in unproductive political discussions while the other countries busy with more important things

what other things and what other countries?

seems thats a big problem and worth to discussion till the end for you Keith?????theres a saying in Turkish,''Millet gitti aya,biz kaldık yaya''....

Thanks for the information. Though I do not belong to turkey & religion but I can understand your feelings. Islam is a good religion. There should not be restrictions on anybody in any religion. Every human being has his or her concscious as his religion. We all are human beings. We should listen to our conscious and keep one thing in mind that god is one and he is watching our deeds and given us mind and conscoius to choose the right path. Because both of above are not bound by religion either god or conscious.

Those are just normal hijabs though. I don't remember where it was posted in this thread but at some point it was mentioned that those headcoverings are political or provocative, so I'd like to know how. How else can they wear it? The kind in the pictures above is what most muslim women wear, and it's from a religious POW.

The question is not whether or not to allow the politically oriented head scarfs into the university.

The question is how to melt the head scarved graduates into the civil state, after their graduation.

How many of the non moslem or secular citizens of Turkey can be indifferent to or at ease with facing a head scarved lady judge at the bench, if they had to face her judgement with a head scarved defendant (opposing rival)?

ONE SOLUTION MAY BE TO GIVE UP THE CIVIL SECULAR STATE ALTOGETHER. iS THAT WHAT WE ARE AFTER?

Are you saying judges with hijab are not objective?

is this queation no valid for who doesn't wear scarf,if the her/his aim not to deal justice???

Azade,
How would I know?
I certainly would feel unconfortable...

How so?

As a judge of course she would have to be objective in all cases, but what's more important - as a person, she would not have any interestin doing injustice.

allow today a headscarf, hidjab, tomorrow they'll demand a burka, and after this they will want to hang or stone raped girls and then goodbye turkey of ataturk and welcome taliban regime.
allow today a head cover tomorrow you will have this:
EGYPT: FATWA ALLOWS "BREASTFEEDING COLLEAGUES"
(ANSAmed) - CAIRO, MAY 21 - The only way to remain in private with a female colleague in the workplace is to let her breastfeed you, according to a fatwa (Egyptian religious decree) of two theologists from al-Azhar which has sparked scandals and polemics in the Egyptian media over the past days. The Islam bans a person from being in private in one and the same room with a person from the opposite sex - unless they are married or have close relations (parents and children, brothers and sisters, and so forth). The fatwa in question was issued recently by Izat Atiyah and Abd el-Mahdi Abd el-Kader, professors at the Cairo-based al-Azhar University, the world's most important centre of Sunni theology. According to them, a woman can lift her veil and remain in private with a male colleague at their workplace only if she had breastfed him five times already. "Entering a public office you should not be surprised if you one day happen upon a 50-year-old employee who is sucking milk from his colleague," ridiculed the al-Distur independent newspaper. A theologian from al-Azhar judged as "senseless" the discussion of a topic of the kind. "If the al-Azhar Mufti himself said such things, he would be a non-respected person and would be considered crazy," theologian Malika Yussef said, quoted by the independent daily al-Karama. Another al-Azhar theologian, Mabruk Attia, believes that the fatwa in question is a wrong interpretation of a "particular case" from the times of Prophet Mohammed. The latter is believed to have advised a woman to milk her adopted son, already grown up, in order to become his milk mother, after adoption was banned by the Islam. The woman gave him her milk to drink from a container, and not via direct breast feeding.

its not so innocent as it seems... always look beyond and check the past!

Wearing hijab and such things as stoning are so far from eachother. The matter of hijab is simply a question of (lack of) personal freedom, stoning etc. is a matter of the law, and which of course never will be allowed in a secular country like Turkey. The fatwa above is just absurd.

What do you (plural, general speaking) care what people are wearing? By banning garments like the hijab, many women are "forced" not to get a proper education/job etc. because they will think of it like this - do I want to educate myself and work while I'm in this dünya or do I want to go to cennet forever?
A woman wearing a regular hijab is capable of doing the same jobs as a woman without.

What's the context?

Religions in Turkey :

ISLAM : 99.8% (mostly sunni)
Other : 00.2% (mostly christians and jews)

Source : http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108054.html

The one who dislikes islam then he dislikes 99.8% of the turks.

Question : Which religion is owner of this :

whoever curses his father or her mother, He must be killed.

A- The old testament
B- Torah
C- Quran

It's also in the new testament...Matthew 15:4.

There are also other examples but I cna't remember them.

Speaking of stoning:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. ... Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

aysenur
deeply respecting your knowledge you've gained from your school and your wisdom whispered by islamists, but tell me how the hell, this : "whoever curses his father or her mother, He must be killed. " is related to the thread?
can you explain it logically?

In the bible ; they say that the impurity is longer twice when the mother give birth to a girl . (lev 12:2-5)

The catholics say clearly that the birth of a girl is a loss. (Ecclesiaste 22:3)

aysenur,
excuse me?
you definitely dont respect secularism!
and my friends who are atheists who live in egypt however do see not only disrespect but live in fear.

azade
im reapeating: it starts from hidjab ends with stoning. thats defeinite! heres is the relation!
and whats the your connection?
why when i come up against islam, why do you criticise all ther other religions? does it have logic reason?
seems like no christianity and no atheism or any other thing has nothing to do with hidjab.

I think that the topic is just about to get out of control.
Another topic can be opened if you want to discuss religions.
To me the topic is sth like :

Does the state (society) has the right to ban religious/political signs/practices?


Note : Several posters mentioned the high percentage of muslims in the society (99.8%). But even not half of Turkish women are covering their head. So any suggestion that Turks that are supporting the ban of "türban" are somewhat alienated to their own culture simply does not coincide with Turkey, its culture and its people. And the percentage is not related to modernisation only. E.g. 20% of Turkish population are Alewites, who are not practicing most of the Sunni Islam teachings. Also there is an important percent of "Immigrants" who migrated from Balkans, also who are not very religious.

azade
im telling you again: if you allow hidjab, tomorrow you'll allow stoning. it sneaks together with hidjab.
thats why a great leader of turks (hated by arab world) banned the veils. so that the stone age customs wouldnt be practiced.

aysenur
i suggest you not to attack the secular state of turkey!

the religion is the opium of the people, said karl marx (pbuh).

you're plain muslimah brainwashed by islamists.
shame you dont know your religion good enough.

i hope it was a good lesson for you for the future not to start such insulting thread.

thats really odd to discussion on a very relative topic like beliefs,and i have never seen any discussion about that which ended with agreement,look likes to ''havanda su döğmek'' so to respect all beliefs best fix unless doesn't give any harm to social peace...

One can have a beautifully pure and caring heart, and not wear a headscarf, one can have very bad thoughts and intentiosn when dealing with other people but still wear a headscarf.

Do the people who think wearing a headscarf is a MUST for God, really think that the God who they belief created such a magnificent thing as life, cannot see what is more important?

Let's say that there is such a rule, do muslims really think that their God will send a bad-hearted scarved woman to heaven and a woman who spend her life taking care of others, doing charity but without a head-scarf to hell?

azade
im saying that if a secular state allows hidjab soon it will stop being secular. thus stoning will be allowed easily.

I think relating stoning directly with Islam is a bit absurd here because in Quran there's not a verse about stoning as far as I know. On the contrary as it's been shown here in the old testament it exists. Could you show the related verse in Quran?

The key question hasnt been answered by anyone with facts and quoted verses from teh Quran. I am currently reading it, but have only been able to read a few pages because its difficult language.

Anyway. Is a headscarf obliged in the islam? Because if its not as many say, the title of this thread is far from true (which I think it is anyway).

The vast majority of scholars say the hijab is mandatory, but there some who don't (maybe sufis but I don't know actually). Since the very beginning of islam Qur'an-i kerim, hadiths and the schools of fiqh has interpreted it so that women should wear it.

Sorry this is quite long...
"Ali ibn Abi Talib said:"Fatimah and I came to the Prophet (PBUH) for a visit and we found him weeping bitterly. I said to him:'May my father and mother be ransomed for you, O Messenger of Allah! What makes you weep?' He replied,' O Ali, during my night journey to the Heavens, I saw of my Ummah being punished in various ways, and I am weeping at the severity of their punishment. I saw a woman hanging by her hair and her brain boiling; another woman was hanging by her tongue and hot liquid was being poured down her throat; another woman's feet clung to her breasts and her hands to her forehead, and snakes and scorpions were stinging her; another one was hanging by her breasts; another woman, whose head was that of a pig and whose body was that of a donkey, was being punished in a thousand different ways; and another woman was in the form of a dog, and fire was going into her mouth and coming out of her anus, and the angels were hitting her head with hammers of fire.' Fatimah stood up and said:'O my dear father, what were the deeds of these women for which they suffer such punishment?' He replied:'O my dear daughter, as for the one who was hanging by her hair, she did not cover her hair in front of men; the one who was hanging by her tongue used to annoy her husband; the one hanging by her breast used to defile her husband's bed (i.e. commit adultery); the one whose feet were tied to her breasts and her hands to her forehead, and snakes and scorpions were stinging her, did not wash herself (make ghusl) after sexual intercourse or finishing menstruation, and she made fun of prayer and the one with the pig's head and a donkey's body used to carry around slanderous tales; and the one in the form of a dog, with fire going into her mouth and coming out of her anus, used to be envious and to recount her favors to others.""

I think no one will ever give an answer to this verse question which would be accepted by all muslims because as Quran has not been changed and will not ever change, this verse will be left to interpretations, and there will never be a consensus. For me as well, this verse is not enough to make an interpretation that headscarf is a must for a muslim woman. So, it's up to us.

So, I'm strongly against any religious muslim state because no one has the right to tell the others how to be a good muslim.

This is their decision. They are not forced.

lopa hassan wrote (i liked her article):

From head-to-toe Burqa to long cloak-Chador to black silky Hijab- each of these attires has become one of the most visible instruments and ideological symbols of political Islam for the last few decades. A number of great articles have already been written on the background and history of veils and on how Islam justified them to be the strict dress code for women. In this article I would like to focus on the ongoing controversies over the justification of wearing hijab in a modern perspective and also see how some western-educated young Muslim women are internalizing the antiquated view of their own status imposed by an inherently misogynistic religion.

“Today young Muslim women are reclaiming the hijab, reinterpreting it in light of its original purpose - to give back to women the ultimate control of their own bodies….....I wear hijab because it gives me freedom. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.” This is an excerpt from an essay written by a Canadian-born college-educated Muslim woman who suddenly decided to reclaim hijab at age twenty one. While being totally respectful of all the notions of civil liberties and a woman’s freedom of choice to wear anything she wants in a democratic society, I can’t help wondering what could drive a college-educated woman, of a North American upbringing, to throw away her freedom of clothing and embrace the veil or hijab and thus deluding herself that she is now liberated.

Just by wearing hijab she thinks she has full control of her body. What an illusive idea of liberation! We need to go to the origin of such notion and examine how veiling is anyway related to women’s freedom. Since the whole idea of cladding with veils emanates from the direct instructions of Qur’an, let’s first take a look at a few Ayats from the Holy Scriptures to examine how much control Allah Has allowed for women to have over their own body.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 81: Narrated 'Uqba:

The Prophet said: “The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).”

m5.4 (Ref: 8, p526):

Husband’s rights: A husband possesses full right to enjoy his wife’s person (A: from the top of her head to the bottoms of her feet, though anal intercourse (dis: p75.2 is absolutely unlawful) in what does not physically harm her.

Imam Ghazali

A woman must keep her sexual organs ready for service at all times. (Ref: 7: vol. I, p235)

(Shahih Muslim) Book 008, Number 3366:

When a woman spends the night away from the bed of her husband, the angels curse her until morning.

(Sunaan Abu Dawud 11.2142)Book 11, Number 2142:

Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) said: “A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.”

Looks like Allah’s law guaranteed a man every right to go into his wife ‘anyway’ he wants, to discipline her anytime he wishes, and the wife has no say of her own about this. We don’t need to look hard into Muslim societies to find the terrible consequences the millennium-old Shariah law has brought for women. Due to the absence of premarital dating, the customary arranged marriage compels a Muslim woman to surrender herself to a complete strange man giving him the full ownership of her body. My question, what veil comes to her defense when she ends up being raped at her wedding night? What protection her hijab gives her when she must hasten to fulfill her husband’s desire even if she herself doesn’t feel compel to? Why can’t she take over and claim the so-called ‘ultimate control over her own body’ to protect herself when the husband exercises his Hadith-sanctioned right to discipline her?

The Canadian young woman made some interesting points in her essay, “Wearing the hijab has given me freedom from constant attention to my physical self. Because my appearance is not subjected to public scrutiny, my beauty, or perhaps lack of it, has been removed from the realm of what can legitimately be discussed. No one knows whether my hair looks as if I just stepped out of a salon, whether or not I can pinch an inch, or even if I have unsightly stretch marks. And because no one knows, no one cares.” This apparently logical assertion of ‘not being displayed to public scrutiny’ might give the impression that Muslim women are probably free from being subjected to meet the impossible male standards of female beauty and therefore are actually taken as equal human beings in their society. Sounds more like feminist fantasyland than Islamic paradise! Is there any such Muslim society where the evaluation criteria don’t include a woman’s physical features when searching for a potential bride for a traditional arranged marriage? I’m sorry, my hijab-loving sisters, there are people (like your potential in-laws) who would ‘know’ and ‘care’ if you have an unsightly stretch mark on your forehead or if you have a bad hair day when those people will examine you like a piece of furniture. Yes, judging women’s worth proportional to their attractiveness is indeed a universal male attitude. Perhaps Islam saved Muslim men a little shame on this issue by making it part of the divine decree like the following:

(Ibid, p228) : Her dowry should be reasonable. The Prophet said: “The best of the women are the beautiful in face and the least in dowry.

In an attempt to defend veiling, Islamic apologists all too often point their fingers to western women accusing them of reducing the definition of liberation to a right of wearing next to nothing. To these people, a woman can only be either scantily-clad or veil-clad; nothing could exist in between the two extremes! It is true that women in the West are often judged on the basis of their appearance, objectified, and very often suffer sexual harassments. Certainly every society has its flaws. I personally don’t like to see women being objectified everywhere in the media. We need to realize that North American and European women enjoy a whole array of rights and freedom all of which they had to earn through decades of movements and struggles. The freedom of clothing is just one of their numerous civic rights. If we unjustly reduce their achievements and contributions by stereotyping them as mere ‘Baywatch sirens’, we would only do a disservice to women of all backward societies(specially Muslim communities) by crushing their hope of ever marching forward.

So what is the most convincing reason for observing hijab according to Muslim scholars? They argue ‘wearing headscarves or veils actually stops men from treating women like sex objects. Veils make them ignore women’s appearance and draw attention to their personalities and mind’. Nice twisted logic! I argue veiling only reinforces the idea that women are nothing but sex objects which is why they have to take the whole responsibility of ‘not exciting men in anyway’ by wrapping themselves up with a shapeless piece of garment. Burqas or hijabs had not been able to raise women’s status to a liberated and independent group of humans in last 1400 years. No matter how much Islamists apologize in defense of veiling, it has been and will continue to be a symbol of subjugation and oppression of Muslim women all over the world. Segregating women from public life, controlling their freedom of movement, and thereby institutionalizing a system of sexual apartheid are just some of the best contributions that veiling has made so far.

Islamic apologists always get the free ride in spreading their propaganda that Islam gave women the ‘true liberation- and a place to actively contribute in society’, simply because no moderate Muslim seems to stand up and pose the obvious question, “Is this because of that ‘true liberation’ we see such a high illiteracy rate among Muslim women in the Middle East?”, or “Is that why the Arab world is being crippled by repression of women and is thus marching toward stagnancy?” Nobody seems to point out the fundamental fallacy of the argument of how veiling protects women from male sexual advances. Why don’t we see any Muslim man being bothered by the idea that implies each and every man of all age would lose every sense of a rational thought at the sight of a girl’s bare arm or her uncovered neck? And what kind of message does it send to a young Muslim girl when she’s preparing to set her foot to the outside world? Doesn’t she need to learn to have respect toward the opposite sex? Strange how we never think about the various psychological traumas a young woman might suffer while going through the process of mandatory veiling.

Muslim women need more than Quranic teachings; they need moral guidance showing that they could be modest and virtuous without the help of veils or hijabs. And why is it that women always have to worry about what they should or should not wear? After all, what makes a woman respectable has very little to do with her attire, and a lot to do with what is inside her brain and how much she uses it.

Finally, returning to the young women’s assertion ‘I wear hijab because I choose to……I find the experience liberating”; I’m happy that she feels liberated and has the freedom to choose the hijab. Only thing we need to be reminded is millions of Arab and Iranian women simply don’t have that freedom of choice; hijab for them is a forced legal requirement. I think, for Muslim women, raised in a free society, to go and advocate for veils or hijabs is just a cruel mockery to the sufferings of hundreds and thousands of women who were slashed with razors, had acid thrown in their faces, often were killed and imprisoned until the Islamic regime in Iran and other Arab states were able to enforce compulsory veiling and establish their rule. As for ‘liberation through hijab’ concept, I only have one question- what is so conflicting with the idea of liberation to demand a little freedom of feeling the wind through my hair?

azade
regarding post 153.
i also read the fragment from the zakat.
you are right, not all women go to hell (btw, have i said all women?), but the majority.
dont interprete the text wrongly in the defence of religion, the thing is that im not a naive european. i dont buy tricks.

Femme - the author has made some mistakes which breaks down the point. It is excellently writted though and she do have some points that I agree to as well
But the major flaws, which makes a large part of the article invalid are:
Regarding to the woman offering herself sexually for the man, the same applies to the man. It's not something that's specifically for the woman.
When it comes to beating, the man is allowed to beating her with a miswak (a toothbrush ) if they can't settle matters.
And muslim women are not segregated from public life.
When she's talking of Iran, I agree though - that's a scary place imho.

Islam was the first to acklowledge women rights. When islam saw light, women's lives changed for the better.
What kind of women would want to be muslim if it was bad?

azade,
i thought you were out!

A man is not allowed to breastfeed from a woman, it's solely for babies. Where did you get that from?

I have been reading these posts with interest. I am not turkish, a muslim, or a woman, but here are my 2 pennies anyway.

I do think it is a shame that women can't wear a head scarf in schools and university. On a personal level I would not mind one bit if my fellow class mates wore a head scarf, or indeed if my teacher wore a head scarf. I do understand why they are banned though. One question, are other religious symbols banned (such as wearing a christian cross on a necklace)?

I'm not convinced allowing the headscarf will lead to stoning. I think this is quite an exaggeration to say the least.

From my understanding it was open for interpretation whether a muslim should cover their heads or not, though a covered head is required for prayer? I am sure this was once true in Christianity?

headscarves protect and liberate women and send straight to hell-fire:

Trapped Saudi girls left to burn by law on dress
TAREK AL-ISSAWI In DUBAI

FOURTEEN girls died in a dormitory fire at a Saudi Arabian school because religious police would not let male firefighters rescue them in case they were not covered from head to toe in traditional robes.

Fifty other girls were injured as the religious police prevented them from fleeing the building during the blaze at the 31st Girls Middle School in Mecca on 11 March.

Government-controlled newspapers accused members of the religious police - the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice - of blocking rescue attempts because some of the girls would not have been wearing the mandatory Islamic dress, which covers the entire body and hair.

"They forced the girls to remain inside the school and didn’t allow them to leave, saying that their hair wasn’t covered and they weren’t wearing the abaya [long robe]," the al-Eqtisadiah newspaper quoted a number of firefighters and police as saying.

Firefighters, police and medical crews said they were kept from going inside the school as well for the same reason.

"We tried to convince them that the situation was very serious but they just screamed at us and refused to move away from the gate," the officers told the newspaper.

According to the reports, most of the victims either suffocated, fell from the windows of the four-storey building or were trampled to death.

The head of Mecca’s police, Brigadier Mohammed al-Harthy, said yesterday that he had arrived at the scene to find a member of the religious police "trying to interfere". "He was fighting with a police officer, trying to prevent him from entering the school," Brig al-Harthy said. "I instructed him to leave and he did."

The fire has led to a domestic debate and an international outcry, with Amnesty International demanding a public investigation. Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Abdullah has vowed that "negligent, incompetent and careless" officials would be punished.

According to the daily Arab News, parents of the victims said they were considering taking legal action against officials.

The director of the committee, Sheik Jaber al-Hakmi, denied his people had prevented rescuers from entering the school. However, the powerful religious police have come under unprecedented public criticism over the incident. The committee, which has offices in every city, is criticised in private, but this is believed to be the first time that newspapers have come out against it.

The committee has powers to arrest, investigate and mete out summary punishments or refer to the courts individuals suspected of violating religious or moral precepts. Women failing to cover themselves have suffered on-the-spot beatings.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=298862002